somehow, bait the ussr into declaring war on poland/being the international badboy
What are plausible decisions Nazi Germany could have made to improve their performance in the War?
- Thread starter TheKennedyMachine.
- Start date
I've got it - Germany wins WWI leading to the SPD to split into two branches - hawks and doves. The hawks, being fiercely nationalist, are known as the "Nationalist Socialists" and are very nationalist and relatively socialist. Appealing to the veterans of the war, they rise to political dominance during the interwar years. Eventually Germany is dragged into a Second Great War through some European dispute. With sane policy and sane leaders they sucessfully protect the European bloc they've managed to establish following their victory in WWI.
Edit: this is a joke. Please treat it as such.
Edit: this is a joke. Please treat it as such.
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Germany talked about post-war France with a Burgundy
History Learner
Banned
I'll quote from Robert Forczyk's Moscow 1941: Hitler's First Defeat
With this accomplished, the end of the resource and manpower drain that is the Eastern Front would be over in 1942 due to the collapse of the USSR and resources could be sent Westwards. Strategic bombing would not be possible until 1944 and would even then be a very blood affair while the Germans could deploy numerous counters such as better Flak or even just simply moving their factories beyond the reach of escorted bomber flights. Without the Eastern Front, defense in depth can be constructed in France and Italy so as to make them impossible to invade without buckets and buckets of blood. In this context, the Americans and the British cannot continue on indefinitely and indeed IOTL the JCS and General Marshall were already seeing serious signs of exhaustion among the American populace by 1945 that suggested the war could not be continued much longer.
As for Leningrad, Wiking in a thread of his covered how Leningrad could be starved out by January of 1942.
With this accomplished, the end of the resource and manpower drain that is the Eastern Front would be over in 1942 due to the collapse of the USSR and resources could be sent Westwards. Strategic bombing would not be possible until 1944 and would even then be a very blood affair while the Germans could deploy numerous counters such as better Flak or even just simply moving their factories beyond the reach of escorted bomber flights. Without the Eastern Front, defense in depth can be constructed in France and Italy so as to make them impossible to invade without buckets and buckets of blood. In this context, the Americans and the British cannot continue on indefinitely and indeed IOTL the JCS and General Marshall were already seeing serious signs of exhaustion among the American populace by 1945 that suggested the war could not be continued much longer.
History Learner
Banned
You're welcome to offer a reasoning behind your opinion, because as it stands this does not constitute a rebuttal.
@Emperor Joshua
Could you break up that mammoth paragraph? Its sheer length makes it prohibitive to read. I'd happy to give feedback if it were more legible.
Could you break up that mammoth paragraph? Its sheer length makes it prohibitive to read. I'd happy to give feedback if it were more legible.
Better railway logistics on the Eastern Front - IE a proven ability to use the different gauges of European railway systems without having to unload from one system to another.
The German army relied on rail heads but the inability to maximize the Russian rail net work due to lack of suitable rail stock.
Many methods of achieving this - the most obvious is increase the size of the engineer units tasked with changing the railway lines to the German system
But the biggest problem and an insurmountable one IMO is geography
Germany is surrounded by enemies (Russia, France, UK and by extension the USA) all of which have far greater Geographical freedom in both the ability to move around the world and make use of its resources.
Therefore whatever cunning strategy is proposed or collection of war winning wonder waffe toys are somehow produced Germany has to win its war quickly and unfortunately for Germany this often had more to do with the decision making of its enemies than its own actions.
I notice for example a common idea is not declaring war on the USA in Dec 1941.
The same USA that was building a 90 division war winning continental force with a massive war industry to boot - with only one real enemy in mind?
The same USA that was escorting convoys almost as far as Ireland and fighting an undeclared war against the Uboats?
So as far as I am concerned it was only a matter of time before the USA was at war with Germany
So ultimately what ever Germany does to win the war it has to do it quickly or not at all.
So less Tiger tanks more better armed PzIII and Pz IV
Less Jet fighters more and earlier FW190s etc
Less STG44 and simply more Kar98s, MG34s and MP40s
If it has not won by end of 42 - forget it.
The German army relied on rail heads but the inability to maximize the Russian rail net work due to lack of suitable rail stock.
Many methods of achieving this - the most obvious is increase the size of the engineer units tasked with changing the railway lines to the German system
But the biggest problem and an insurmountable one IMO is geography
Germany is surrounded by enemies (Russia, France, UK and by extension the USA) all of which have far greater Geographical freedom in both the ability to move around the world and make use of its resources.
Therefore whatever cunning strategy is proposed or collection of war winning wonder waffe toys are somehow produced Germany has to win its war quickly and unfortunately for Germany this often had more to do with the decision making of its enemies than its own actions.
I notice for example a common idea is not declaring war on the USA in Dec 1941.
The same USA that was building a 90 division war winning continental force with a massive war industry to boot - with only one real enemy in mind?
The same USA that was escorting convoys almost as far as Ireland and fighting an undeclared war against the Uboats?
So as far as I am concerned it was only a matter of time before the USA was at war with Germany
So ultimately what ever Germany does to win the war it has to do it quickly or not at all.
So less Tiger tanks more better armed PzIII and Pz IV
Less Jet fighters more and earlier FW190s etc
Less STG44 and simply more Kar98s, MG34s and MP40s
If it has not won by end of 42 - forget it.
Femto
Banned
They can supply the USSR's oil to Japan if they win, this isn't rocket science. The USSR has the infrastructure to transport goods to Manchuria.
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thaddeus
Donor
read that torpedo crisis book, it makes the point about limited time for the uboat war to succeed.
for the resources, they had a jumble of developments and unexploited oilfields? prior to invading East, which then consumed them?
mean they did achieve an increase in Austrian oilfields of Vienna Basin, but sent their oil corps to USSR when they might have discovered (or likely would have discovered) the huge Matzen field. much the same thing on their border area with the Netherlands.
there was probably a rational balance between the Westwall, naval construction, and the synthetic oil program? and guess your could include their autobahn and railway system in that?
marathag
Banned
There were two real candidates for a universal truck, Opel Blitz and Ford V3000, both based on earlier US designs.
Hitler could have not invaded Poland, with Stalin's unilateral invasion of Poland and the Baltics freaking the world out and allowing Hitler to rally everyone against him. Also, the United States would never have declared war on Germany without an extreme provocation like Pearl Harbor. Before Pearl Harbor, less than 1/5 of the United States supported entering World War 2. After Pearl Harbor, support for entering World War 2 jumped to 70-80%. As long as the Axis Powers tiptoe around the United States NO MATTER WHAT, they can keep them out of the war. And as long as the United States stays out of the actual fighting, Hitler's chances of victory remain pretty good. The technical and strategic issues that the Germans suffered (which were mentioned earlier in this thread) also need to be fixed to assure a German victory in World War 2.
@Resurgam I broke it up into paragraphs. Please read it and let me know what you think of it ASAP.
@Resurgam I broke it up into paragraphs. Please read it and let me know what you think of it ASAP.
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Because he and Hitler agreed to invade it together, but then Hitler doesn't keep his end of the deal and instead condemns Stalin for invading Poland, making Stalin look like the sole aggressor. Remember, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was 100% private and was not released to the general public until 1946, after Germany surrendered and the Nuremberg Trials were ongoing. I doubt that any nation would have given Stalin the benefit of the doubt.
Stalin only invaded once Germans have broken Polish armed forces. Seems like he was not stupid?
Was it possible for Hitler to have convinced Stalin to invade Poland at the same time? Or did Stalin only agree to the Pact because the Germans promised to do all of the heavy work?
That's not an entirely true picture - US Public opinion changed rapidly between Sept 1939 and Dec 1941
Certainly earlier in the war the Polls showed a reluctance to get involved but only the May 1940 Poll shows a less than 1/5 ration you claim.
But as early as May 1941 over 2/3rds of Americans were pro getting involved in the war - this trend was increasing as time went on - and by Nov 1941 the USA was at war with German as it was possible to get without actually being at war.
It was only a matter of time and the USAs choosing before they joined the war
Various US Gallup Polls 1939-1941
If it looks within the next few months as if England and France might be defeated, should the United States declare war on Germany and send our troops abroad?
Gallup, Sept 1-6, 1939 (War Begins)
Yes: 42% No: 48% Unknown: 10%
If it appears that Germany is defeating England and France, should the United States declare war on Germany and send our army and navy to Europe to fight?
Gallup, Oct. 5-10, 1939 (Poland Conquered)
Yes: 29% No: 71%
Do you think the United States should declare war on Germany and send our army and navy abroad to fight?
Gallup, May 18-23, 1940 (Invasion of the Lowlands and France)
Yes: 7% No: 93%
Which of these two things do you think is the more important for the United States to try to do–to keep out of war ourselves or to help England win, even at the risk of getting into the war?
Gallup, June 27-July 3, 1940 (France Defeated)
Yes: 35% No: 61% Unknown: 4%
Which of these two things do you think is the more important for the United States to try to do–to keep out of war ourselves or to help England win, even at the risk of getting into the war?
Gallup, Sept. 19-25, 1940 (Military Draft starts)
Help: 52% Dont help: 44% No Opinion: 3%
Which of these two things do you think is the more important for the United States to do–to keep out of war ourselves, or to help England win, even at the risk of getting into the war?
Gallup, Nov. 21-26, 1940 (Roosevelt wins 3rd term)
Help: 60% Dont help: 40%
Which of these two things do you think is the more important for the United States to try to do–to keep out of war ourselves, or to help England win, even at the risk of getting into the war?
Gallup, March 9-14, 1941 (Lend Lease act)
Help: 67% Dont help: 33%
Which of these two things do you think is the more important for the United States to do–to help Britain, even at the risk of getting into the war, or try to keep out of war ourselves?
Office of Public Opinion Research, July 1941 (Germany Attacks Russia)
Help: 62% Dont help: 33% No opinion 5%
Which of these two things do you think is the more important for the United States to try to do–to keep out of war ourselves, or to help Britain, even at the risk of getting into the war?
Gallup, Sept. 19-24, 1941 (USS Greer Attacked)
Help: 64% Dont help: 30% No opinion 6%
Which of these two things do you think is the more important–that this country keep out of war, or that Germany be defeated?
Office of Public Opinion Research, Nov. 21-26, 1941 (US Newspapers warning that the USA was soon to join the war)
Help: 68% Dont help: 28% No opinion 5%
Should President Roosevelt have declared war on Germany, as well as on Japan?
Gallup, Dec. 12-17, 1941 (The week following a certain Day of Infamy)
Yes: 91% No: 7% Unknown: 3% (yes I know that doesnt add up!)