Could the British Empire be Reformed? if so how?

I think that the British Empire's breakup was inevitable and a solid emperial federation impossible, and not just because of the democratic deficit in trying to keep Britain as top dog despite being a distinct minority. (And, let's face it, every Imperial Federation proposal to go through the halls of power in Britain would, by default, keep Britain as top dog.)

For one thing, spheres of influence. After a point regardless, the US is going to so far outweigh Britain in North America that Canada will, by necessity, look to the US for trade and peace security rather than Britain. Good relations with the US would be a requirement, not an option, which would mean that on any serious issue where Britain is opposed to the US, Canada would have to default. Repeat this with other areas where Britain, while having great global reach, can't dominate in the regions that matter, and the Dominions will have to pursue their own security policies.

For another thing, constant movement towards autonomy. That's a near uniform constant in every society, and the white dominions were no different. Every country/region likes to be able to make their own policies that fit their own best interests, everyone jealously guards their own perogatives, and are always relunctant to commit abroad for someone else without a clear reason and motive. All of these will lead the Dominions to resist any sort of formal integration/subordination, especially if population becomes involved and then they get yoked to India or Africa's movements and worries.

Then there is the minor detail of arguable public support in most the colonies or even Britain itself. Britain prided itself on using fewer men to govern larger areas. Despite all these claims for support of a Federation, I have never seen any sort of poll about how the British felt about it (and, let's face it, if the British electorate feels that it will hurt them to compete with, say, India, then the whole thing is scuttled), about how the white Dominions felt about it (Canada and Australia want in? Really? Proof?), and have never even heard it alleged that the poor peasant masses of India or Africa were just dying to be even more tightly bound to the British Empire.

And what about economics, or freedom of movement? Forget about India, even British Africa alone would throw a wrench in the British economy, and then throw in a fire bomb as well. And that's just from free movement: if Britain can't simply deny industrialization to areas that might compete with it...
 
Susano speaks truth. Susano is wise.

At the end of the day the Empire is not really a natural economic or political unit, which makes survival difficult (Reconstitution is obviously way off the cards.)

On the other hand it is amazing how many people thought it would survive.

Thoughts:

What's really in it for the White Dominions? With an imperial federation in the 1890s they might get used to an extra tier of government in London, but it would likely become an irrelevance - perhaps it would be a source of EU type economic regulation on common standards and the like, it could be particularly useful during the communications revolution of the 20s and 30s.

India - restricted franchise would be needed, the best solution would be to set middle classes against landowning classes: easier said than done.

Africa: Demands for independence mostly from the tiny native elite, easily managed if the will was there. See Portugal and South Africa.
 

Susano

Banned
Africa: Demands for independence mostly from the tiny native elite, easily managed if the will was there. See Portugal and South Africa.
OTOH, Portugal experienced a coup by disgrunted military forces because of the endless colonial wars...
 
OTOH, Portugal experienced a coup by disgrunted military forces because of the endless colonial wars...

Considering population and wealth differences it's going to be less of a drain for Britain. But yes, in the long-term problematic unles the Empire has something to offer the locals.
 
Could the British Empire be Reformed? if so how?

Technically, one way to do this would be to have the Low Church/Calvinist wing of the CofE win out (possibly with a continued Commonwealth?). Then instead of the Empire being perceived as 'Anglican', it is perceived as being 'Reformed', in the Calvinist stream....
 

Churchill

Banned
First the issue of an Imperial Federation in the past would have only included the White Dominions each having their own parliaments.
The coloured colonies would have been held has a subject people by force.

An Empire formed today ive thought could perhaps start with encouraging closer links with New Zealand perhaps encouraging National Separatism in Newfoundland etc.
Could be linked it with Populist Nationalism and anti-immigration politics.
A more forceful approach could be the invasion of the Western Cape in South Africa and it's re-settlement with people of British stock.
 

Churchill

Banned
Susano speaks truth. Susano is wise.

At the end of the day the Empire is not really a natural economic or political unit, which makes survival difficult (Reconstitution is obviously way off the cards.)

On the other hand it is amazing how many people thought it would survive.

Thoughts:

What's really in it for the White Dominions? With an imperial federation in the 1890s they might get used to an extra tier of government in London, but it would likely become an irrelevance - perhaps it would be a source of EU type economic regulation on common standards and the like, it could be particularly useful during the communications revolution of the 20s and 30s.

India - restricted franchise would be needed, the best solution would be to set middle classes against landowning classes: easier said than done.

Africa: Demands for independence mostly from the tiny native elite, easily managed if the will was there. See Portugal and South Africa.

In Africa and India best menthod would be no votes.
Votes only in the White Dominions.
India would have to be denied Dominion status and split along ethnic lines.
 

Churchill

Banned
If the British Imperial Federation of White Dominions had been set up it would now be the largest country in the world with a population of 110 million people (not counting the African natives in S Africa who would be disenfranchised).
 

boredatwork

Banned
You might get the white dominions to hang together (doubtful, but possible for a while, the subsidies you would need to offer them to make up for subordinating themselves would bankrupt the UK after some point though), but it's just not feasible to hold onto the non-white (Africa/India/Asia) colonies in such a scenario.

First, there is the blatant racism,

Second there is the issue of anti-english nationalism that you've just stoked,

Third, there are going to be the various foreign powers making hay with the combination to raise caine - People's liberation fronts, national movements, etc.

Fourth, you have the other powers (Japan, China, Russia, US, France and others) in those areas asserting themselves - even a unifed WBE couldn't handle them all, not by a long shot. Given how many of it's forces will have to be dedicated to holding the NWC's against unrest, it's doubtful the WBE could come out ahead against even one major power, much less several.

Fifth, given 1-4, you are going to bleed the WBE even whiter from attrition and financial loss

Sixth, the non UK portions of even a WBE are going to want an equal say sooner rather than later, and at least one of them is going to hit on the idea of siding with/using the NWC's as leverage in such maneuvering.
 

Churchill

Banned
You might get the white dominions to hang together (doubtful, but possible for a while, the subsidies you would need to offer them to make up for subordinating themselves would bankrupt the UK after some point though), but it's just not feasible to hold onto the non-white (Africa/India/Asia) colonies in such a scenario.

First, there is the blatant racism,

Second there is the issue of anti-english nationalism that you've just stoked,

Third, there are going to be the various foreign powers making hay with the combination to raise caine - People's liberation fronts, national movements, etc.

Fourth, you have the other powers (Japan, China, Russia, US, France and others) in those areas asserting themselves - even a unifed WBE couldn't handle them all, not by a long shot. Given how many of it's forces will have to be dedicated to holding the NWC's against unrest, it's doubtful the WBE could come out ahead against even one major power, much less several.

Fifth, given 1-4, you are going to bleed the WBE even whiter from attrition and financial loss

Sixth, the non UK portions of even a WBE are going to want an equal say sooner rather than later, and at least one of them is going to hit on the idea of siding with/using the NWC's as leverage in such maneuvering.

Would be quite easy to hold such people down depending on which people you are dealing with and the methods to be used.
 

Susano

Banned
Would be quite easy to hold such people down depending on which people you are dealing with and the methods to be used.

"Such people"? I see:rolleyes:
In any case, no, it wouldnt. Britain would be economically wrecked from trying to militarily hold all colonies down. Thats a TL somebody oughta write anyways, to cure AH.com from colonialwank...
 
If the British Imperial Federation of White Dominions had been set up it would now be the largest country in the world with a population of 110 million people (not counting the African natives in S Africa who would be disenfranchised).
Which, of course, means little, considering how most of it (Australia, Canada) is either useless desert or useless tundra.

"Such people"? I see:rolleyes:
In any case, no, it wouldnt. Britain would be economically wrecked from trying to militarily hold all colonies down. Thats a TL somebody oughta write anyways, to cure AH.com from colonialwank...
Amen. The British were losing money and control even before WW1 OTL: why the assumption that even more costs and challenges in expansion will make it last longer?
 

Churchill

Banned
"Such people"? I see:rolleyes:
In any case, no, it wouldnt. Britain would be economically wrecked from trying to militarily hold all colonies down. Thats a TL somebody oughta write anyways, to cure AH.com from colonialwank...

We managed very well in doing so in all our colonies.
Even with might weak efforts.
With stronger methods like those of Imperial Germany or Fascist Italy the colonies would have been very easy to maintain.
 

Churchill

Banned
Which, of course, means little, considering how most of it (Australia, Canada) is either useless desert or useless tundra.

Amen. The British were losing money and control even before WW1 OTL: why the assumption that even more costs and challenges in expansion will make it last longer?

Where exactly are we losing control?
 

MrP

Banned
We managed very well in doing so in all our colonies.
Even with might weak efforts.
With stronger methods like those of Imperial Germany or Fascist Italy the colonies would have been very easy to maintain.

Dear boy, if we start using genocide to maintain our Indian Empire, as did the German Empire in Africa, you will see a decline in support for the Empire. I'm somewhat aghast that you're coldly suggesting this as though it is somehow a good thing.
 

MrP

Banned
If you use genocide you arnt looking for support but fear.

As DAv clarifies, "support at home" is what I was referring to. I am very troubled by the fact that you responded to that, and not to my dismay at your apparent support for genocide as a means by which to hold the Empire. It's diabolical.
 
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