Dave Shoup
Banned
Understood. Makes it a choice between the Colt (which they have experience with and is available in great numbers) or something else where neither is true.
British Army adopts an Auto Pistol before 1939
- Thread starter fastmongrel
- Start date
Understood. Makes it a choice between the Colt (which they have experience with and is available in great numbers) or something else where neither is true.
The design was basically done by1931 so yes Britain could have adopted the Hi Power. Also the lawsuit by Webley of Enfield for blatantly stealing theie .38 revolver design (which they won) could have caused Britain to look for other more modern options.
An early 1930's competition between the Colt 1911 in .45 acp, the Walther PP in .380, the Luger in 9mm, and the Browning 1903 (am not sure about the avalaible calibers) and the historical UK .38 revolver would have been interesting in my view.
I expect there were other self loading handguns avalaible off the shelf as well (the 1911 in .38 super may also have been an option ?)
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I don't see the UK adopting the .38 Super, probably 9mm Parabellum would be as powerful as they'd go for. The 1903 was chambered for the 9mm Browning Long cartridge, though I suspect the UK would want a heavier bulleted load. Or a version in 9mm Parabellum.
I suspect the Luger would have been politically unacceptable.
The .45 ACP contradicts the switch from .455.
Dave Shoup
Banned
Presume someone could have put out an updated version of the Webley-Scott, in .455 or .32, to provide an answer to any "NIH" issue.
The switch to .38 was to develop a lighter, more easily used, handgun. Switching to the .45 Colt contradicts this basic idea.
Maybe the Colt in .38 Auto, or a new 9mm version.
Browning completed the first design before his death in '26; sixteen round magazine in 9mm. Saive finished the design after the Colt patents expired in '28. Despite the faffing around with the French army trials...
So certainty a version could have been offered, if the UK was looking. The problem would have been that it wasn't British.
Britain has never had a problem adopting other nations designs, so long as they were manufactured in Britain.
Dave Shoup
Banned
Either one would certainly be a possibility; suppose they could have converted the existing stock of Colt .455s if they wanted to, as well.
there are 3 pistols and 4 cartridges that that can apply to
- FN Model 1903 in 9mm Browning Long
- Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless in .32 acp and .380 acp (note: collectors have named the .380 version the 1908)
- Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammer in .38 acp,
Yep & yep.
A sidearm has its uses, it is better than no weapon at all, but the reality is that when the bad guys get close enough for pistols, it time to leave.
In the case of the 1911 I suppose the .38 super could have been down loaded somewhat and a different recoil spring used in the trial guns to match the downloaded rounds ?
I have my doubts that the Browning 1903 being a blow back design could have accommodated 9x19 without an unacceptably stiff recoil spring but this is just speculation on my part.
The first option seems the most likely (to have been one of the contenders) to me in this fictional time line
. But I suppose they all could have been contenders
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The FN Model 1903 feels a little dated but functional, this would appear a good choice with the Hi-Power not yet ready, say if we are talking closer to 1930 adoption or even earlier for some alternatives, and the different 9mm might be attractive for a "go it alone Britain". Does anyone have an opinion of the 9x20 semi-rimmed used in the British SMGs forthcoming? And it appears someone can tweek them to .380 if desired. Overall I rather like a world where Parabellum is not so ubiquitous and Britain keeps it ties to FN.
The Walther PP would seem worthy of serious consideration if a "blow back" pistol was acceptable.
Good point. Also reflecting on this a bit more adopting a firearm capable of chambering .38 super that couldn't safely fire .38 super doesn't seem like a good plan.
In any event adopting the 1911 as military issue firearm in a round less powerful than the .45 or .38 super seems a bit strange to me.
(Although as a civilian I do enjoy shooting them in 9x19.)
And the UK got a stack of them post-war as reparations and were handing them out to aircrew on a regular basis until at least 1991 - I remember seeing RAF Tornado crews wearing them at a pre-mission briefing. I think they get Glock 17's now.
That'd basically be .38 Auto; same case as .38 Super but lighter load (and the unfortunate ability for .38 Auto pistols to chamber the latter, sometimes disastrously).
Yes that is a good point. I don't see the UK being happy with that type of arrangement.
Well .38 Super isn't a military cartridge, or even much of a police one. Mostly Major pistol shooting or civilian use in countries that restrict 'military' cartridges.