British Army adopts an Auto Pistol before 1939

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by fastmongrel, Oct 4, 2019.

?

An Automatic for the British

  1. Colt 1911 in .45ACP

    4 vote(s)
    5.7%
  2. Colt 1911 in .455 Webly Scott Auto

    6 vote(s)
    8.6%
  3. Modified Colt 1911 in 9mm Parabellum

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  4. Luger P08 in 9mm Parabellum

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  5. Browning 1903 in 9mm Browning Long

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  6. Browning High Power in 9mm Parabellum

    52 vote(s)
    74.3%
  7. Pistolet automatique modèle 1935 in 7.65 Longue

    1 vote(s)
    1.4%
  8. Star Model B in 9x19mm Parabellum

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  9. Radom Vis 35 in 9x19

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

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    The Royal navy had a special cradle for them as well

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Peg Leg Pom Well-Known Member

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    But it was too small so they designed HMS Incomparable.

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Zincwarrior Well-Known Member

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    I voted Browning Hi Power, but is there a reason the Walther was left off the list?
     
  4. fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    No reason other than when I started the thread I was thinking more towards 9mm Parabellum size guns. Now I am inclining more towards 9mm short (.380) sized weapons firing a heavier bullet to try and match the .38/200 round that was adopted. Maybe the Soviets had it right with the 9x18 Makarov.
     
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  5. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

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    As others have pointed out, pistols will do really nothing for changing the combat power of an outfit.
    What does change things are SMGs or PDWs in pistol calibers
     
  6. Zincwarrior Well-Known Member

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    Apr 4, 2019
    I'd proffer the Walther P38 should be added. While the Germans had Lugers they had far more Walthers. Just me though.

    Pistols are almost a nonissue. Find one off the shelf, and buy a bunch (recommend the same now).
     
  7. fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    I can't see the British buying a German weapon in 1938.
     
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  8. fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    The pistol in British service wasn't a combat weapon. A pistol was still needed as I said for military police use, as a bailout weapon for air and tank Crews and as something to arm 2nd line troops. SMGs in the early 1930s were still an exotic toy and PDWs were science fiction.
     
  9. Peg Leg Pom Well-Known Member

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    Oct 18, 2009
    They might just copy one though, tweaking it just enough to claim it's British. The did it with the Bergman MP28 to turn it into the Lanchester. Yes that was a wartime measure but by 1938 war's coming and everyone with eyes knows it.
     
  10. fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    Not sure the P38 was ideal for Britain. From what I have read and viewed it was complicated with iirc 11 springs and required precision machining, extremely Germanic. From my vast experience of firing 5 rounds through a P1 (P38) I thought it was a nice gun
     
  11. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

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    P38 Prototypes did not start appearing until 1939 and actual production in any numbers not until 1940 - so while I see nothing wrong with it as a pistol etc I think it is too 'late' to consider as a design for the British to copy and place into production etc
     
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  12. Peg Leg Pom Well-Known Member

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    I've said before if Britain is going to adopt a semi auto it's likely to be the Browning Hi Power. I was just pointing out that in 1938 with war obviously coming Britain could make the choice that German patents are irrelevant as any court action is unlikely before war breaks out.
     
  13. Zincwarrior Well-Known Member

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    Apr 4, 2019
    Very excellent point. That is helpful.

    I am still liking the HiPower, frankly against anything for the next three or four decades. Full disclosure I have a crappy version of one that I swear was made by some East European country. Its junk but you can see it being an awesome pistol with a good manufacturer.
     
  14. Catsmate Well-Known Member

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    Aug 10, 2008
    It's German.
    Exactly.

    Basically a rimless .38/200. A likely option. Historically I'm not aware of a 9x17 load with a bullet over 95 grains but there's no reason not to go heavier, say 125 grains or more.

    I'm surprised the UK didn't look more at a shorter 7.7mm round and a carbine PDW. The rationale is there.
     
  15. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back

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    Feb 2, 2013
    Early Science Fiction, WWI era flavor
    [​IMG]
    or
    [​IMG]
    Gun Jesus says late 1890s for this one

    PDWs are a modern name for a weapon more accurate than a pistol or SMG, and easier to use.
    M1 Carbine is called by some as the first real PDW, and I can't say that they are wrong.
     
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  16. Gillan1220 Gillan, God Emperor of Craft Cafe Bar

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    I was thinking the British may improve the C-96 or at least make the Inglis HP automatic.
     
  17. Blue cat Well-Known Member

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    Dec 24, 2010
    My first vote was also for the high power. Full disclosure I have fond memories of learning how to shot an Ingils made one as a teenager (a long time ago :) )

    After a bit of reflection I do think the Walther PP is a better fit for this thread. In the early 1930's I suspect the made in Germany issue could have been dealt with, but yes it may also have been an issue.

    Edit to add:
    If I had to carry a pistol just because I had to carry a pistol, with little expectation of actually having to fight with it, a pistol along the lines of the PP would be high on my list of early 1930's era options. If I had to carry a pistol with a high expectation of actually using it as a weapon in a one vs one encounter a 1911 (probably in .45 ACP) would be my choice vis a vis early 1930's era options.

    Later the Hi Power or perhaps the P38 would be high on my list of options.

    All these comments about what I might have done are only made in the context of this fictional time line :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019 at 2:22 PM
  18. Blue cat Well-Known Member

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    Dec 24, 2010
    Interesting, thanks ! I wasn't aware the UK issued the 1911 in .38 super.
     
  19. b0ned0me Well-Known Member

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    Jul 31, 2011
    Yes, in the grand scheme of things rifles are as cheap as chips. The man-hours to do all that work, definitely not. This I think is exactly why the AK74 ended up the way it did. It wasn’t that the Soviets couldn’t design and field a spiffier more modern/ergonomic design, but they figured that a minimal-change variant that basically only needed a new rifle, magazines and ammo with essentially everything else BAU was plenty good enough, and gave no issues with all the zillions of 47s they were still using.

    The C96 would be a horrendous thing to tool up for and to use, it’s literally a 19th century design. By the time it’s made minimally competitive it’s basically going to be a brand new design. Then there is the issue that full-auto pistol “carbines” are almost always a curates egg. Either they are OK pistols that are a horror show in full auto or they are OK SMGs that are giant clumpy awkward pistols.
    The number of troopies that would benefit from having a full-auto stocked GP35 rather than either an MP18/Lanchester or a generic pistol is pretty minimal I would think.