This is one of the reasons I love this timeline. For all that Rhomania is the protagonist, and has a great many traits that appeal to the modern Western liberal mindset, it also doesn't shy away from the cruelties and atrocities it inflicts.
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
I’m not so sure - the post states that future Latin abolitionists will be frustrates by Rhomania’s refusal to emancipate their slaves, and while that doesn’t necessarily mean that the Triunes, Spanish, Lotharangians, or Arletians will, as a state, embrace emancipation sooner, it does at least suggest that Rhoman attitudes toward emancipation will be less developed than Latin ones. Which I rather like - I’m always glad when Rhomania is shown not to be an infallible and unstoppable state, but as one which can fall behind and be overshadowed by her rivals.
Cryostorm
Monthly Donor
It's an empire, an old empire, whose citizens are an ancient people who have gone through the grinder of history and made it to the other side intact but not unchanged or untarnished. But at the end of the day they did make it when many of their enemies are either reduced or no longer in existence.
Slavery has been a Roman institution for close to 3 millennia ITTL, and divorced as it is from the racial aspect that highlighted its barbarity in the West by contrast, abolitionism will have a harder time making the case that its existence represents a moral stain on the empire's values.
As world communication improves though they might be able to argue that the Caribbean slavery is a stain however, which may improve conditions there even if slavery itself is not abolished outright.
Cryostorm
Monthly Donor
Well it is mentioned the main reason it happens in Rhomania in the West is that Constantinople is a long ways a way and has little ability to directly control the colony.
That's what I mean by when communication improves. That tends to indicate either faster methods of communication or, more likely, faster methods of travel which make it much more practical to exercise control over vast distances. Combined with the increased awareness at home of what is going on there it wouldn't be terribly difficult to force the Caribbean colonies into compliance. It's just not likely to happen until the steam engine is developed, and even then only when someone is both is aware of the issue, and cares to lobby for change, not to mention influential enough to make something happen.
Still something I could see happening though. While the islands are profitable they aren't particularly valuable as far as the Empire as a whole is concerned, so it wouldn't be terribly difficult to convince an Emperor to bring them into line once it is a little more practical to do so, and the islands themselves wouldn't have any particular military strength to resist with.
Rhomania-in-the-West I think is going to keep slavery longer than at least the first wave of abolition. It is small enough and remote enough that it just won’t raise passions in an empire focused in OTL Middle East and Island Asia. Add in an institutional distrust of anything coming from Latin Europe and I could easily see Rhomes Caribbean colonies keeping slaves right up until OTL equivalent of late 19th-early 20th century. I think abolition would happen sooner than that but I see it as gradual where they just don’t allow new slaves rather than freeing any of them.
The more interesting thing in the latest update was the bit about Malays and other groups becoming Roman. This more than anything is why I think long term Rome is going to come to utterly dominate Island Asia in a way that has no equivalent to OTL. Even ignoring that Rome will be able flood the area with ships and men short term due to their financial reforms Spain, the Triunes and others will be relying on divide and conquer and a colonial elite of perhaps a few 10,000s of transplanted metropolitans to hold onto their colonies. Meanwhile Rome will be gaining 100,000s to Millions of willing subjects that consider themselves; and more importantly; are considered by the government as fully Roman. It will give Rome a massive advantage in the Far East before even taking into account how much more developed Roman areas will become as essentially Roman despotates or autonomous Kingdoms under Constantinople rather than just colonies.
The more interesting thing in the latest update was the bit about Malays and other groups becoming Roman. This more than anything is why I think long term Rome is going to come to utterly dominate Island Asia in a way that has no equivalent to OTL. Even ignoring that Rome will be able flood the area with ships and men short term due to their financial reforms Spain, the Triunes and others will be relying on divide and conquer and a colonial elite of perhaps a few 10,000s of transplanted metropolitans to hold onto their colonies. Meanwhile Rome will be gaining 100,000s to Millions of willing subjects that consider themselves; and more importantly; are considered by the government as fully Roman. It will give Rome a massive advantage in the Far East before even taking into account how much more developed Roman areas will become as essentially Roman despotates or autonomous Kingdoms under Constantinople rather than just colonies.
How can Slavery remain there when Newspapers are so developed? A few reports about the inhumanity should see the slavers summoned to court after an official inquiry. It doesn't have to be a public pressure, just bureaucratic process. I mean, what's to stop a black official in sufficiently authority from taking action? This is after all illegal, just tolerated.
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I doubt Rhomania-in-the-West is important enough to register in newspapers, certainly not any newspapers with enough circulation to kick up a fuss about it. They're tiny islands far away from the fighting and the intrigue, it probably won't even really register as Roman territory until a more lasting peace returns.
Long term it can be ignored the way many problems are ignored by the population. By rationalization and ignorance. They are small sparsely populated islands far away from Rhomania. If they have any representation in Constantinople it is likely one “nobleman” who will put their best foot forward.
If newspapers do a story what are chances it does more than gets tut-tutted about by the population at large in the same way is common even in the present day. We are talking perhaps a total of perhaps a couple thousand slaves total at any one time in an empire that will likely be in the range of 50+ million by the 19th century.
As for why a black official wouldn’t care. It’s really simple...because the official is Roman and the slaves are not.
Donald Reaver
Donor
Fluent Greek seems a harsh demand for citizenship. Passable seems likely good enough, especially considering most parts of the Empire will have dialects of Greek at this point hard to follow from someone not from that district.
Evilprodigy
Donor
This is an early modern state.
It SHOULD be hard to get citizenship. If anything, this is lenient by early modern standards by actually allowing people to get citizenship who aren't Greek by birth.
@TheWanderingReader: I didn’t think there was any realistic way for Roman Caribbean slavery to not transform into the typical Caribbean-style slavery. The same climatological and economic forces are at play in the Roman Caribbean.
I want TTL to feel like real history, and in real history peoples and polities are usually some shade of gray, with both good and bad parts (although certainly one can be more dominant). So Rhomania has its good points, but also its bad points. And I don’t think it’s fair to shy away from the latter.
@RogueTraderEnthusiast: Free trade is anathema to the Romans, to the point that proposing it is borderline heresy, arguably treasonous, such is their hatred for it. To the Romans, it immediately brings to mind the Italians, especially the Venetians, and their conduct in Rhomania in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. It is blamed for so many Roman ills for that time period. IOTL Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes, Emperor of Nicaea and father of Theodoros II Laskaris, passed laws to restrict his subjects trading with Italians to encourage domestic manufactures. That became a part of the Nicaea Laskarid reforms ITTL and has been an important part of Roman ideology ever since.
So no Roman government is going to tolerate free trade that crosses the Imperial frontier (inside the Empire is a different manner), and any Roman official that proposed it would be sacked on the spot. There are adjustments to tariffs on various goods and services and “most-favored-nation” rates granted to allies and friends, but there is always at least a token tariff.
Pirate port is an interesting idea; that’s how the English defended Jamaica in its early years as an English colony. But pirates are hard to control, and could hamper Roman diplomacy. Plus if Rhomania-in-the-West is annoying enough, a Latin state might decide to seize it anyway. Its defense really rests on the principle that the Romans can beat on the aggressor in another field and force it to return the islands in exchange for making them stop. But that’s not the best guarantee for defense as it is indirect.
@Curtain Jerker: Yeah, once I decided there was going to be a Roman Caribbean holding, I knew it was going to turn into this.
The risk there is that a too-powerful Java might turn into a Neo-Majapahit which would be really bad for Roman interests. A Neo-Majapahit is not going to tolerate the Roman Katepanates on its turf.
@Christian: Still very much a thing. The Patriarchs are very important in Roman society, and strong ones can push back at Imperial policy from time to time, but the Basileus is in charge at the end of the day.
Egyptians and Indians rate highly on the civilizationism scale. Living in cities supported by agriculture with a written culture are extremely important features of civilizationism. There is recognition that peoples’ place on the scale can shift over time, whether up or down.
@Frame: Thank you for your support. It’s greatly appreciated.
@Albert Blake: Aborigines doing their thing across most of the continent, with primitive Chinese villages that are the remains of Wu civilization around Xi Wang (OTL Sydney). Romans might get an interest in the place later on, although right now there’s more than enough action in Island Asia to keep them busy.
If you’re referring to Australia, I think the Wu remnant could gradually form a new sophisticated civilization if given the time. Whether it would do so before something equivalent to the First Fleet showed up is a different matter.
If you’re referring to the east in general, there are lots of sophisticated polities already extant.
@UoBLoyalist: This is the first time I’ve used the term ITTL. As a broad scope it refers to the ethnic cleansing of Sunnis, although ITTL it often refers to a specific event that hasn’t happened yet.
@floppy_seal99: Now that’s an idea. The Shimazu were overlords of the Ryukyu kingdom before they became Emperors of Japan, but since becoming Emperors they’ve had to focus their strength on solidifying their control over the Japanese islands. They haven’t had the surplus to be sending out expeditions.
I wanted to make a brief point on seeing your bit about “major bonus points with Rhomania and Russia”. The Japanese see themselves as every bit the equal of the Romans. The Roman Emperor is the Emperor of the Setting Sun and the Japanese Emperor is the Emperor of the Rising Sun. (The Japanese tried to get this equality of Imperial titles with China IOTL and ITTL and both times were told by the Chinese to pound sand. The success story of Japanese Orthodoxy ITTL was dependent on Demetrios II not putting up any fuss and accepting that equality of status.) Rhomania can act as big brother to the Orthodox kingdoms of the West, but not with the Japanese, and they insist on it.
@Evilprodigy: Pretty much. Shimazu strength has been needed at home to keep and secure their hold over Japan, which still isn’t that old.
Glad you’re enjoying them. I had a list going of things I wanted to cover and now seemed like a good time to cover them with a break in the narrative.
I have or will shortly cover all the ones I had on the list, but I’ll take suggestions. If they intrigue or interest me I might run with them; I believe it was a comment you made a while back that inspired this whole series on minorities.
@HanEmpire: I think if the Koreans were sending trade expeditions as far as Taiwan, they’d just keep going a little further and set up shop in Pyrgos. That’s where the Mexican silver galleons and Roman spice haulers dock; there’s nothing comparable in Taiwan.
I’ve got some stuff planned so won’t say here but TTL Korea will be a different beast from OTL.
@Iskandar Khayon: Thank you. It certainly will be a doozy when it gets here, that I promise.
@Βοανηργές: After serving their term, they’d be free, although if they stayed on as tenant farmers of government land their purely economic status wouldn’t change. For those in the military, they could rise in rank provided they have the necessary qualifications, including sufficient Roman-ness.
This is the first mention of the issues regarding Korea.
@CV12Hornet: Obviously I’m a Byzantophile, hence the TL, but I do want to keep a balanced view of the TTL Roman Empire.
@Imperial Inkstand-filler: This is an area where the “if Latins do it, we don’t” comes and makes the Romans look bad, the reverse of the race-based discrimination situation where Romans look down on it because “racism is what Latins do”. If Latin abolitionists tried to pull something like the OTL British slave patrols off the coast of Africa and ended up seizing and impounding Roman slavers, the resulting anti-Latin backlash would strengthen the support for slavery in Rhomania.
@Cryostorm: Yeah, I think an accurate Roman Hetalia character should have PTSD. They’ve lived through it all, but they’ve seen and endured too much to have come through unscathed.
@minifidel: Especially once it’s just the house slaves in the heartland, whose economic conditions don’t look too bad compared to unskilled landless laborers living hand-to-mouth, it’s not going to excite much passion.
@TheCataphract: Caribbean slavery would probably be abolished in an announcement like this: “The Romans of the west, isolated far from the homeland and surrounded by far more numerous Latins, unfortunately instituted the Latin model of slavery. This is a most cruel and heinous institution, devoid of humanity and Christian virtue, although that is unsurprising considering who originated it. This Latinizing tumor shall now be removed from the Roman body politic.”
I agree with you that once steamships become a regular item Constantinople would be better able and willing to force compliance on Rhomania-in-the-West. But in the days of sailing ships it’s so far away and not that important, so it’s easiest to just ignore the blood and take the sugar money. Not right, but easy.
@JSC: Yeah, Roman slavery will be extended by any outside Latin abolitionist pressure, solely on the grounds of sticking it to those annoying Latins. The Romans can be petty too.
The Malay-Romans and the like will be very significant going forward. The willingness of the Roman government to accept them as Romans, as you pointed out, makes a very big difference. OOC, the Despotates were created to provide a model to give various people autonomy while still keeping them within the Roman umbrella, a ‘Federal Empire’ if you will.
@Sceonn: Mainly because it’s simply ‘out of sight, out of mind’. Most Romans couldn’t find St Giorgios on a map if their life depended on it. There will be the occasional slaver whose exceptional brutality gets the attention of the Roman government and is punished, but these examples don’t do anything to resolve the underlying institution.
Plus any black official wouldn’t feel any solidarity with the slaves; there was no African solidarity at this point IOTL. Leaving aside the Roman-ness, all the Sudanese slaves in the heartland came from East Africa while those in Rhomania-in-the-West come from West Africa.
@PlayerOne: It could be called that, although it’s a pale shadow of the far more glorious Eastern Roman Empire.
@Donald Reaver: Fluency may have a lower standard than it does in modern times. After all, the standard for literacy at this point is being able to sign one’s name rather than just making an X (this is from OTL).
Also what is registered as fluent is tied to social status of the speaker. A Malay laborer would only be expected to speak Greek at a level commensurate with that of a Greek laborer; nobody would be expecting him to talk about the fine points of philosophy. An upper-class Malay, on the other hand, would be expected to have an ‘upper-class’ level knowledge of Greek to be considered fluent.
I want TTL to feel like real history, and in real history peoples and polities are usually some shade of gray, with both good and bad parts (although certainly one can be more dominant). So Rhomania has its good points, but also its bad points. And I don’t think it’s fair to shy away from the latter.
@RogueTraderEnthusiast: Free trade is anathema to the Romans, to the point that proposing it is borderline heresy, arguably treasonous, such is their hatred for it. To the Romans, it immediately brings to mind the Italians, especially the Venetians, and their conduct in Rhomania in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. It is blamed for so many Roman ills for that time period. IOTL Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes, Emperor of Nicaea and father of Theodoros II Laskaris, passed laws to restrict his subjects trading with Italians to encourage domestic manufactures. That became a part of the Nicaea Laskarid reforms ITTL and has been an important part of Roman ideology ever since.
So no Roman government is going to tolerate free trade that crosses the Imperial frontier (inside the Empire is a different manner), and any Roman official that proposed it would be sacked on the spot. There are adjustments to tariffs on various goods and services and “most-favored-nation” rates granted to allies and friends, but there is always at least a token tariff.
Pirate port is an interesting idea; that’s how the English defended Jamaica in its early years as an English colony. But pirates are hard to control, and could hamper Roman diplomacy. Plus if Rhomania-in-the-West is annoying enough, a Latin state might decide to seize it anyway. Its defense really rests on the principle that the Romans can beat on the aggressor in another field and force it to return the islands in exchange for making them stop. But that’s not the best guarantee for defense as it is indirect.
@Curtain Jerker: Yeah, once I decided there was going to be a Roman Caribbean holding, I knew it was going to turn into this.
The risk there is that a too-powerful Java might turn into a Neo-Majapahit which would be really bad for Roman interests. A Neo-Majapahit is not going to tolerate the Roman Katepanates on its turf.
@Christian: Still very much a thing. The Patriarchs are very important in Roman society, and strong ones can push back at Imperial policy from time to time, but the Basileus is in charge at the end of the day.
Egyptians and Indians rate highly on the civilizationism scale. Living in cities supported by agriculture with a written culture are extremely important features of civilizationism. There is recognition that peoples’ place on the scale can shift over time, whether up or down.
@Frame: Thank you for your support. It’s greatly appreciated.
@Albert Blake: Aborigines doing their thing across most of the continent, with primitive Chinese villages that are the remains of Wu civilization around Xi Wang (OTL Sydney). Romans might get an interest in the place later on, although right now there’s more than enough action in Island Asia to keep them busy.
If you’re referring to Australia, I think the Wu remnant could gradually form a new sophisticated civilization if given the time. Whether it would do so before something equivalent to the First Fleet showed up is a different matter.
If you’re referring to the east in general, there are lots of sophisticated polities already extant.
@UoBLoyalist: This is the first time I’ve used the term ITTL. As a broad scope it refers to the ethnic cleansing of Sunnis, although ITTL it often refers to a specific event that hasn’t happened yet.
@floppy_seal99: Now that’s an idea. The Shimazu were overlords of the Ryukyu kingdom before they became Emperors of Japan, but since becoming Emperors they’ve had to focus their strength on solidifying their control over the Japanese islands. They haven’t had the surplus to be sending out expeditions.
I wanted to make a brief point on seeing your bit about “major bonus points with Rhomania and Russia”. The Japanese see themselves as every bit the equal of the Romans. The Roman Emperor is the Emperor of the Setting Sun and the Japanese Emperor is the Emperor of the Rising Sun. (The Japanese tried to get this equality of Imperial titles with China IOTL and ITTL and both times were told by the Chinese to pound sand. The success story of Japanese Orthodoxy ITTL was dependent on Demetrios II not putting up any fuss and accepting that equality of status.) Rhomania can act as big brother to the Orthodox kingdoms of the West, but not with the Japanese, and they insist on it.
@Evilprodigy: Pretty much. Shimazu strength has been needed at home to keep and secure their hold over Japan, which still isn’t that old.
Glad you’re enjoying them. I had a list going of things I wanted to cover and now seemed like a good time to cover them with a break in the narrative.
I have or will shortly cover all the ones I had on the list, but I’ll take suggestions. If they intrigue or interest me I might run with them; I believe it was a comment you made a while back that inspired this whole series on minorities.
@HanEmpire: I think if the Koreans were sending trade expeditions as far as Taiwan, they’d just keep going a little further and set up shop in Pyrgos. That’s where the Mexican silver galleons and Roman spice haulers dock; there’s nothing comparable in Taiwan.
I’ve got some stuff planned so won’t say here but TTL Korea will be a different beast from OTL.
@Iskandar Khayon: Thank you. It certainly will be a doozy when it gets here, that I promise.
@Βοανηργές: After serving their term, they’d be free, although if they stayed on as tenant farmers of government land their purely economic status wouldn’t change. For those in the military, they could rise in rank provided they have the necessary qualifications, including sufficient Roman-ness.
This is the first mention of the issues regarding Korea.
@CV12Hornet: Obviously I’m a Byzantophile, hence the TL, but I do want to keep a balanced view of the TTL Roman Empire.
@Imperial Inkstand-filler: This is an area where the “if Latins do it, we don’t” comes and makes the Romans look bad, the reverse of the race-based discrimination situation where Romans look down on it because “racism is what Latins do”. If Latin abolitionists tried to pull something like the OTL British slave patrols off the coast of Africa and ended up seizing and impounding Roman slavers, the resulting anti-Latin backlash would strengthen the support for slavery in Rhomania.
@Cryostorm: Yeah, I think an accurate Roman Hetalia character should have PTSD. They’ve lived through it all, but they’ve seen and endured too much to have come through unscathed.
@minifidel: Especially once it’s just the house slaves in the heartland, whose economic conditions don’t look too bad compared to unskilled landless laborers living hand-to-mouth, it’s not going to excite much passion.
@TheCataphract: Caribbean slavery would probably be abolished in an announcement like this: “The Romans of the west, isolated far from the homeland and surrounded by far more numerous Latins, unfortunately instituted the Latin model of slavery. This is a most cruel and heinous institution, devoid of humanity and Christian virtue, although that is unsurprising considering who originated it. This Latinizing tumor shall now be removed from the Roman body politic.”
I agree with you that once steamships become a regular item Constantinople would be better able and willing to force compliance on Rhomania-in-the-West. But in the days of sailing ships it’s so far away and not that important, so it’s easiest to just ignore the blood and take the sugar money. Not right, but easy.
@JSC: Yeah, Roman slavery will be extended by any outside Latin abolitionist pressure, solely on the grounds of sticking it to those annoying Latins. The Romans can be petty too.
The Malay-Romans and the like will be very significant going forward. The willingness of the Roman government to accept them as Romans, as you pointed out, makes a very big difference. OOC, the Despotates were created to provide a model to give various people autonomy while still keeping them within the Roman umbrella, a ‘Federal Empire’ if you will.
@Sceonn: Mainly because it’s simply ‘out of sight, out of mind’. Most Romans couldn’t find St Giorgios on a map if their life depended on it. There will be the occasional slaver whose exceptional brutality gets the attention of the Roman government and is punished, but these examples don’t do anything to resolve the underlying institution.
Plus any black official wouldn’t feel any solidarity with the slaves; there was no African solidarity at this point IOTL. Leaving aside the Roman-ness, all the Sudanese slaves in the heartland came from East Africa while those in Rhomania-in-the-West come from West Africa.
@PlayerOne: It could be called that, although it’s a pale shadow of the far more glorious Eastern Roman Empire.
@Donald Reaver: Fluency may have a lower standard than it does in modern times. After all, the standard for literacy at this point is being able to sign one’s name rather than just making an X (this is from OTL).
Also what is registered as fluent is tied to social status of the speaker. A Malay laborer would only be expected to speak Greek at a level commensurate with that of a Greek laborer; nobody would be expecting him to talk about the fine points of philosophy. An upper-class Malay, on the other hand, would be expected to have an ‘upper-class’ level knowledge of Greek to be considered fluent.
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I know this is a long way away, but I do wonder what labor relations in Rhomania would be like. I'm guessing if you can give it an OTL comparison, it could look more like Bismark's Germany where he gave them their healthcare and rights to shup up the socialists than America's where the government literally sent in the army to take care of striking worker's since I don't see the Rhomanian's bending over backwards to support rich industrialists who people just might see as the modern dynatoi that caused the government so much trouble in the past.
Yeah, I meant Australia, maybe the Romans could help the civilisation along if the Latins get a bit too handsy with the East Indies. It would be interesting for civilisation-ism if it was a kind of “white man’s burden” where greater civilisations build up lesser ones to bring forth progress.
I think Rhomania would go the route of Social Democracy in dealing with labour, looking down on both overmighty capitalists and revolutionary socialists in equal measure. Regulated economic growth, public works, and public services will mark Rhomania as superior to the lassez faire and labour unrest madness in the Latin world. An Imperial Welfare state, if you will.
Basileus444, could you perhaps use multi quote function when responding to comments? Reading it like this is pretty confusing (I usually use two tabs of AoM for it), and since multi quote is available I think it would be easier for both you (you just add all comments to multi quote and respond in single post) and readers.
I agree with this prediction about the "Imperial Welfare" state. I think the analogy the author used a while back was that the Emperor was the head of the nation as a man was head of his household - his word was law because father knows best but the Emperor has to provide for his subjects like the head of the household has to provide for the family.