I know this is a long way away, but I do wonder what labor relations in Rhomania would be like. I'm guessing if you can give it an OTL comparison, it could look more like Bismark's Germany where he gave them their healthcare and rights to shup up the socialists than America's where the government literally sent in the army to take care of striking worker's since I don't see the Rhomanian's bending over backwards to support rich industrialists who people just might see as the modern dynatoi that caused the government so much trouble in the past.
It’d definitely much more like Bismarck’s model. The Roman government knows you need to provide both bread and circuses. Plus many of the activities that rich industrialists have pulled vis-à-vis labor, such as issuing their own currency (company script) and hiring private armies of Pinkertons, would make the White Palace go utterly berserk on the industrialists. And there’s no way a Roman government would let a big company get away with not paying any income taxes.
Yeah, I meant Australia, maybe the Romans could help the civilisation along if the Latins get a bit too handsy with the East Indies. It would be interesting for civilisation-ism if it was a kind of “white man’s burden” where greater civilisations build up lesser ones to bring forth progress.
I foresee civilization-ism becoming a ‘big umbrella’ ideology, with lots of sub-groups. Some might say primitives can be exploited; others might adopt a sort of ‘uplift responsibility’ for more civilized peoples.
I think Rhomania would go the route of Social Democracy in dealing with labour, looking down on both overmighty capitalists and revolutionary socialists in equal measure. Regulated economic growth, public works, and public services will mark Rhomania as superior to the lassez faire and labour unrest madness in the Latin world. An Imperial Welfare state, if you will.
Definitely something like that.
Basileus444, could you perhaps use multi quote function when responding to comments? Reading it like this is pretty confusing (I usually use two tabs of AoM for it), and since multi quote is available I think it would be easier for both you (you just add all comments to multi quote and respond in single post) and readers.
I’m trying it out. However ever since I timed out while writing a response post online, which resulted in the complete waste of an hour, I type the responses out in a work document, sometimes over the course of a couple of days, and then just copy-paste. This splicing that’s needed for the multi-quote is making this take longer.
I agree with this prediction about the "Imperial Welfare" state. I think the analogy the author used a while back was that the Emperor was the head of the nation as a man was head of his household - his word was law because father knows best but the Emperor has to provide for his subjects like the head of the household has to provide for the family.
That analogy is going to be very important in future Roman political discourse. Providing social services may become a key requirement for the Imperial system to maintain its legitimacy. A father may discipline his children, but he must also provide for them. And a father that can’t or won’t feed/clothe/shelter his children doesn’t have the right to discipline them.
Which is also an interesting way to maintain the monarchy: “Retain the Emperor; in a republic a political party could vote away your health care.”
Glad I could have provided some inspiration.
As for suggestions the only ones that come to mind are outlines of some foreign policy nuance and perceptions to specific countries. Like the government sees Spain like this, the people think this. That sort of thing. I'd also be curious about anything on Rhoman infrastructure and nomadism/pastoralism. Anatolia from what I understand from otl retained a nomadic and pastoral character for a long time after the Turks moved in. They still have some of that with sheep but it isn't particularly different from alpine, Spanish, Welsh, or Balkan pastoralism. The rise of cotton may have slaughtered this particular element of local society but I am curious about how civilizationism manifests in the Rhoman interior to this group of formerly nomadic Central Asians and how more professionally managed government than from OTL has managed to support the urban and settled activities it culturally values.
I'm also somewhat interested in seeing an economic breakdown both for the labour pool (though we already got some of that with the tax reform but not like, who is a miner and who is a farmer) and the export and import market and how the state is meddling in both. It's a bit of a nebulous suggestion but maybe you can roll with it.
That sounds interesting. I’m spinning some ideas so we’ll see what turns out.
They won't. As per the previous chapter:
The Latins will be the first to tread the path of abolitionism instead of lingering slavery on the homeland and brutal slavery on the West from the Romans.
Yup. A Latin state will be first, and in the process annoy the Romans somehow (seizing and impounding a Roman slaver for example), which will encourage the Romans to keep slavery longer out of spite and perhaps cynicism, suspecting this is really some Latin ploy to ruin Roman sugar. (This was an OTL suspicion of British abolitionist efforts.)
You know, I've always wondered what a person from OTL make of TTL Rhomania? I'm guessing that it would depend on where the OTL person came from, if say an American were given a tour around Rhomania, I'm guessing he would be familiar with some of Rhomania's rather odd laws about carrying weaponry but would be quite disgruntled at the government being so all powerful, while if you got an educated Chinese man into a tour around Rhomania, it would seem all too familiar to him, the burned in memories of humiliation, the hatred of the people west of them, the government having so much reach, it would probably resonate a lot with OTL Chinese people considering their history.
The devil’s in the details; it would depend on the OTL observer. But I plan on it looking…different to an OTL observer, not really lining up to any OTL system. One reader (I can’t remember who, unfortunately) speculated on a weird Sweden-China hybrid.
I wonder whether Mauritius and Reunion will adopt the western or eastern model when the Romans get around to planting sugar on them.
I was thinking about those while writing the update, but decided to save them for the ‘Africa’ update(s) I have planned. However because they’re in the East, and due to their strategic positions as bases to keep an eye on the Latins, the White Palace is going to be paying much more attention. It’s a bit harder to get away with breaking Imperial law when the naval contingent in harbor is a squadron of fregatai rather than a pair of tiny brigs.
What's the slavery situation in Taprobane? I imagine whatever the Romans do there will be what the Romans do on the other Indian Ocean islands they colonize. Rhomania-In-The-East seems to be on a slightly (emphasis on "slightly") tighter leash than Rhomania-In-The-West so I can see the Western model not being able to last under the scrutiny of the East.
B444 --> did the Southern Wu ever make it to Western Australia, like around OTL Perth?
I’m not sure about Taprobane, but in Island Asia slavery is very common. This is because, like IOTL, Southeast Asia is very lightly populated. All of Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and Burma
combined have a population comparable to that of just the Roman heartland + Despotates. (The population explosion IOTL is from the 19th and 20th centuries.) So labor is more valuable than land.
The Wu never made it west.
Part of me is deeply curious as to the Indian perspective on the wars the Romans and Latins have been involved in. Alongside the Marinids they've sat out so far, but if I remember rightly Vijayanagar has interests in Persia, or at leasts an interest in weakening Persia.
Any chance we can get some perspectives as to what they think in the wake of the war? The Marinids can't exactly be thrilled I'd expect, and I'm really eager for an assertive Vijayanagar to start making itself felt on the world stage.
Plus, what about the Steppe? We've not heard much about them in a while.
I’m planning on an India update with Vijayanagar playing a very big role. I like the idea of Vijayanagar being a player on the world stage, although I’m not sure how that works with the rules about Hindus not leaving India, which admittedly seem to have been broken often. Hinduism got to Southeast Asia somehow, and the Chola were a thing. Streamlined purification rites, like were done with the Gurkha regiments?
The Steppes: I have plans for more focus on the steppes, although I’m not sure yet whether they’ll fall into the Russia updates or the East Asia one I have planned, or they may get one of their own. But the days of great nomadic conquerors is over; Timur II and the Later Yuan were the last bursts of that. Although sedentary states are still not exerting much, if any, control over the steppes as of yet.
So Far.
Like, in all seriousness, we don't seem to have a Russia that is about to conquer Siberia, so it could be an opening for anyone able to develop a Steppe-friendly gunpowder warfare. The Cossacks seem the most plausible, but it would be interesting to see a New Steppe Empire, armed with Gunpowder from their cities. They wouldn't have the fabulous wealth of the Silk Road because of oversea trade, but it would create an interesting player against Persia, Rhomanion, China, etc.
I'd really like to see a strong Central Asia/Tarim Basin State pull it off.
It’d probably be something like Babur’s army, gun-armed infantry in the center backed by cannons, both from the cities, supported on the wings by nomad cavalry that encircle and trap the enemy force so that it can be blasted by the gunners. A polity based on Transoxiana and/or the Tarim Basin could pull it off. The issue is that such a state would have the Khazars/Russians from the north, the Chinese to the east, and the Ottomans to the south. Perhaps if it’s not too rich so it’s not worth the bother of conquering it (likely since the Silk Road is declining), but the three big neighbors are all interested in keeping the other two out, so they all agree to leave it as an independent buffer state. It’s a delicate act but it could work.
Hm, I'm wondering if, either from TTL or OTL, Rhomania has critics on how undemocratic it is, how much power the government has and how protectionist they are, it goes against the grain on liberalism in lots of ways, more hands off you are with the economy, the more prosperity? Rhomania thinks that's just bullshit. Democracy is awesome, everyone should try it? Rhomania calls crap on that one, citing the Roman Republic and also the Venetians for forever tainting the idea of republics and democracy to Rhomania.
There will be criticisms, both within and without. That’s inevitable. Latins might say that the Roman government restricts the freedom of the individual by only letting people with a high school diploma vote, while Romans counter that letting uneducated people have any say in government guarantees bad ideas getting traction. Latins might say Roman regulation stifles growth, while Romans counter that unregulated growth is dangerous, unsustainable, and often leads to devastating crashes.
