@thekingsguard I don’t see why women’s suffrage should be pushed back later than OTL. Since the US would be more militarized in this TL, it would better for gender relations in the long term to let women do their three year military service like the men. The Confederacy in this TL will be itching for round two with the object of seizing the border states. The second Federal Confederate war breaks out around the same time as the women suffrage movement in the US gains some serious traction. Due to some early military setbacks, Federal manpower suffers as fewer military age men are either willing to enlist or there are significant resistance to conscription in major cities. A desperate president then holds a meeting with leading suffragettes in which he willing to submit a constitutional amendment to Congress allowing for female suffrage in exchange for the suffragettes backing the president’s plan to enlist women into the army. Slowly but surely with the help for the new “Amazon” or all-female units, the Federals roll back the Confederate high tide. The sight of women fighting and dying for the Federal cause will not only cause the public to back female suffrage but also to shame some reluctant and unwilling men to enlist. The Confederacy will undoubtedly at first mock the Federals for having to resort to using women, but their attitude will soon change when the Amazon units prove their worth in battle. That realization could also cause the Confederates to have to divert military resources to crackdown on a disaffected home front (the Confederate cavalier image will be taking a beating here) which in turn will start the countdown to a communist revolution.

Admittedly, given the USA of this world is generation or two ahead on Civil Rights - the current VP is WEB DuBois, and the controversy isn't his race, but that old age has started hitting him hard - more economically egalitarian, and has a social safety net, I needed a very clear way to make the USA look less "utopian", especially since the other big "negative", mandatory military service, might be seen as Heinlein style wish fulfillment on my part (Just as in his case, it's not). Being a generation behind on women's rights more akin to Imperial Germany and Russia was the first idea I could come up with.

I remain open to other ideas.
 
I find it hard to see how communism would become popular in the CSA.
While breakup the large Plantations owned by the slave owners might popular with the poor white and black people full communisms is another matter.
Hard to see atheist communism going down well in the bible belt.
A communism strongly linked to religion might work better.
Would the CSA have a large enough industrial class for communism or would in be more rural like Maoism.
I think CSA economy would be most selling farm produce and importing manufactured goods like Rice, Cotton,Tobacco,Turpentine,Sugar,Indigo
later oil and coal could become important. if they take Mexico silver could be important.
I imagine the effect of the dust bowl might be even bigger that the bowl weevil.
Poor people in Farming based economies want to own their own land, not a good start for the communists.
I wonder will probation of alcohol happen in the CSA.
 
I find it hard to see how communism would become popular in the CSA.
While breakup the large Plantations owned by the slave owners might popular with the poor white and black people full communisms is another matter.
Hard to see atheist communism going down well in the bible belt.
A communism strongly linked to religion might work better.
Would the CSA have a large enough industrial class for communism or would in be more rural like Maoism.
I think CSA economy would be most selling farm produce and importing manufactured goods like Rice, Cotton,Tobacco,Turpentine,Sugar,Indigo
later oil and coal could become important. if they take Mexico silver could be important.
I imagine the effect of the dust bowl might be even bigger that the bowl weevil.
Poor people in Farming based economies want to own their own land, not a good start for the communists.
I wonder will probation of alcohol happen in the CSA.

I think that a comparison to Cuba is better than, say, a comparison to Russia or China. Cuba was largely an export economy and was heavily dominated by foreign investment which was leveraged by the regime to keep power and reward its cronies. This would largely be a Cuba writ large, and race relations - if communism could push past the mud-sill theory and men like Newton Knight certainly proved this was possible along with the aforementioned Parsons - could be addressed of the working man is pushed hard enough. Being sent to die in waves by an uncaring and exploitative planter class and out of touch elites in Richmond would probably be enough to push most people over the edge.

Though you make a good point about religion. My personal belief is that rather than the atheistic Marxism of OTL a Southern inspired communist movement would bind people through shared hardships, and bridge the racial gap with religion. Evangelical Marxist-Parsonism?

Economically, I would imagine the CSSA is still export heavy in terms of economics, but with the pre-war and post war years to build up industry they could have a passable domestic industry to call upon in expanding their economy.
 
I think that a comparison to Cuba is better than, say, a comparison to Russia or China. Cuba was largely an export economy and was heavily dominated by foreign investment which was leveraged by the regime to keep power and reward its cronies. This would largely be a Cuba writ large, and race relations - if communism could push past the mud-sill theory and men like Newton Knight certainly proved this was possible along with the aforementioned Parsons - could be addressed of the working man is pushed hard enough. Being sent to die in waves by an uncaring and exploitative planter class and out of touch elites in Richmond would probably be enough to push most people over the edge.

Though you make a good point about religion. My personal belief is that rather than the atheistic Marxism of OTL a Southern inspired communist movement would bind people through shared hardships, and bridge the racial gap with religion. Evangelical Marxist-Parsonism?

Economically, I would imagine the CSSA is still export heavy in terms of economics, but with the pre-war and post war years to build up industry they could have a passable domestic industry to call upon in expanding their economy.

I wonder could Huey long be the leader?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Long
Huey Long Collection | Share Our Wealth Speech | 1934

Huey Long Seen as Threat to FDR in 1930s


This is a man who could sell communism in the south.


 
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Admittedly, given the USA of this world is generation or two ahead on Civil Rights - the current VP is WEB DuBois, and the controversy isn't his race, but that old age has started hitting him hard - more economically egalitarian, and has a social safety net, I needed a very clear way to make the USA look less "utopian", especially since the other big "negative", mandatory military service, might be seen as Heinlein style wish fulfillment on my part (Just as in his case, it's not). Being a generation behind on women's rights more akin to Imperial Germany and Russia was the first idea I could come up with.

I remain open to other ideas.
In fact you can roll in female suffrage as part of the earlier than OTL civil rights legislation. The mandatory military service for all could simply be looked at as the other side of a double-edged sword.
 
I find it hard to see how communism would become popular in the CSA.
While breakup the large Plantations owned by the slave owners might popular with the poor white and black people full communisms is another matter.
Hard to see atheist communism going down well in the bible belt.
A communism strongly linked to religion might work better.
Would the CSA have a large enough industrial class for communism or would in be more rural like Maoism.
I think CSA economy would be most selling farm produce and importing manufactured goods like Rice, Cotton,Tobacco,Turpentine,Sugar,Indigo
later oil and coal could become important. if they take Mexico silver could be important.
I imagine the effect of the dust bowl might be even bigger that the bowl weevil.
Poor people in Farming based economies want to own their own land, not a good start for the communists.
I wonder will probation of alcohol happen in the CSA.

I think that a comparison to Cuba is better than, say, a comparison to Russia or China. Cuba was largely an export economy and was heavily dominated by foreign investment which was leveraged by the regime to keep power and reward its cronies. This would largely be a Cuba writ large, and race relations - if communism could push past the mud-sill theory and men like Newton Knight certainly proved this was possible along with the aforementioned Parsons - could be addressed of the working man is pushed hard enough. Being sent to die in waves by an uncaring and exploitative planter class and out of touch elites in Richmond would probably be enough to push most people over the edge.

Though you make a good point about religion. My personal belief is that rather than the atheistic Marxism of OTL a Southern inspired communist movement would bind people through shared hardships, and bridge the racial gap with religion. Evangelical Marxist-Parsonism?

Economically, I would imagine the CSSA is still export heavy in terms of economics, but with the pre-war and post war years to build up industry they could have a passable domestic industry to call upon in expanding their economy.

One of the reasons I actually think the CSA is MORE vulnerable to Communism - the same reason we saw revolutions in a bunch of other backward rural countries with an out of touch ruling classes. There's a reason it was Russia, China, Cuba, places like that falling to Communist Revolution, as opposed to say, the industrial nations like Germany or Britain Marx once envisioned - LOTS of disenfranchised people that are poor, angry, and with not a lot to lose. The places with large pre-existing industrial economies never fall to communism - probably because organized labor and rising living standards take the wind out of those sails.

The CSSA will see some industrialization, to mixed successes - Communist five-year plans may do a crap job as rush industrializing, but hell, anything's an improvement over the Confederate government that made industrialization quite literally impossible. For example, MASSIVE steel production, too much iron, and coal in Alabama, Tennessee and Georgia not to at least try that. The economy will still be mostly agriculture and raw goods, but increasingly smaller percentages - the plantations turned into communes now. Yet I think ya'll are going to go wild when I reveal what the CSSA's replacement for King Cotton as the South's new cash crop is.

Officially, the CSSA is officially atheistic, and they do crackdown on organized religion, sometimes worse than others. Some of the old Southern gospel has survived has underground - there is going to be a cameo from someone in the novel that will either make people throw down the book in anger, or cement it as a favorite forever.

Plus, it helps that there are some trappings of the more "fun" parts of the church. your local communist party chapter organizes the occasional barbecue/tent revival event celebrating the revolution and the state, complete with dancing and gospel choirs, albeit they've swapped out "Amazing Grace" for "The Internationale".

I wonder could Huey long be the leader?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Long
Huey Long Collection | Share Our Wealth Speech | 1934

Huey Long Seen as Threat to FDR in 1930s


This is a man who could sell communism in the south.

Huey Long is one of the folks on my shortlist for leadership in the CSSA - literally the only thing that has me on the fence is that the part of Louisiana he's from ends up on the US side of the border, but it's not too crazy to think he may strike out for the CSSA post-war instead of trying to make a new life in the USA.

That has been one of the hardest parts - getting the right mixture of white Southern leftists like Parsons and Long, black Southern leftists like James W. Ford, Ned Cobb, Owen Whitfield, Richard Wright and pretty much anyone involved with these guys or this lot, and a collection of OTL leftists from the North the USA sent South to raise hell during the war, or all but forced to emigrate post-war at gunpoint, like Upton Sinclair, William Z Foster, Emma Goldman, Bill Haywood, Jack Reed and Earl Browder.

Other folks I considered using, such as Harry Haywood, are among the rare cases where someone from OTL who could not exist had the South won - one parent from was from Missouri, wrong side of what is now an international border.

In fact you can roll in female suffrage as part of the earlier than OTL civil rights legislation. The mandatory military service for all could simply be looked at as the other side of a double-edged sword.

Then what would be a good way for this USA to be notably behind our own?
 
Another thing with religion is that in Russia, the Soviets only had to come to an concordat with the Russian Orthodox Church in order to get a handle on Russia's biggest religious demographic. No similar overarching organization which Red Richmond can negotiate with ties together the various congregations of the South, so imposing religious policy becomes a lot more difficult. I think that even if the ConCom government is not religious in nature, it will try to unify Southern Christianity into 1-3 state-sanctioned organizations like China's Three-Self Church, to which it can delegate authority over day to day affairs but from which it can demand accountability should any congregations become hives of seditious thought. The mission statement of this organization could also be much like the Three-Selfers-- emphasizing "self-reliance" and "indigeneity" by refusing foreign (read: Northern) funding/ideological influence and dedicating itself wholeheartedly to the construction of ~New Dixie~. Of course, such a measure would probably only enjoy mixed success, and I'm sure a tradition of independent congregations of semi-legal status along the lines of China's "house churches" would come into being sooner or later.
 
@thekingsguard in regardless on how to make the US less similar to OTL you could have a revival of the anti immigrant Nativist movement complete with all sorts of crackpot conspiracies on how the international bankers along with Britain and France stabbed the US in the back, a sort of an American dolchstosslegende. The US could continue to officially regard the Confederacy as rebellious states similar to China / Taiwan interactions of OTL. Also you can discrimination against women and minorities in the civilian sector driving them to seek careers in the military which in turn have the potential to produce rifts between the army and Congress.
 
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@thekingsguard in regardless on how to make the US less similar to OTL you could have a revival of the anti immigrant Nativist movement complete with all sorts of crackpot conspiracies on how the international bankers along with Britain and France stabbed the US in the back, a sort of an American dolchstosslegende. The US could continue to officially regard the Confederacy as rebellious states similar to China / Taiwan interactions of OTL. Also you can discrimination against women and minorities in the civilian sector driving them to seek careers in the military which in turn have the potential to produce rifts between the army and Congress.
The way I'd do it is have the USA retain anti-Catholic sentiment to some extent, though this would likely be tempered by pro-Irish leanings due to anti-British sentiment.

Another way to look at it is having the USA's definitions of race change. There were already cultural and dialect differences between north and south, with the Confederacy as the national enemy I can't help but think that Yankee propaganda would proclaim Northern and Southern whites to be separate races (with the northern one being superior, obviously), and would consider blacks to be "morally superior" or something (you know, so they're good guys who must be helped against the evul national enemy, but also they're not better than the dominant white society so the white people don't get scared). I've gone into detail about this in other Confederate-victory threads before, but I can easily see ATL Northern racists getting down a rabbit hole of "hybrid vigor" like OTL Mexican racist propaganda did, proclaiming the glories of interracial marriage to form a "master species" or something.

That could be contrasted with a vaguely Strasserist leaning in the CSSA, producing tension between the more anarcho-socialist, anti-racist in a '30s way Northern exiles, and a native movement of totalitarian national-collectivist nazbol thought built around a "racial hierarchy" and ethnic purity. So the USA's cryptofascist dark side could be a weird futurist-style technocratic ostensibly anti-racist form of neo-racist authoritarianism, and the CSSA's might be a bizarre fascist/commie mashup where everybody lives in segregated communes planned from the capital to keep the poor whites who brought critical mass to the revolution (and likely weren't all exactly beacons of progressive thought) happy while building black ethnonationalist sentiment to keep them happy with segregation. The segregation could even be more legitimately equal than OTL, if only because the CSSA is likely an impoverished mess even for whites.
 
One of the reasons I actually think the CSA is MORE vulnerable to Communism - the same reason we saw revolutions in a bunch of other backward rural countries with an out of touch ruling classes. There's a reason it was Russia, China, Cuba, places like that falling to Communist Revolution, as opposed to say, the industrial nations like Germany or Britain Marx once envisioned - LOTS of disenfranchised people that are poor, angry, and with not a lot to lose. The places with large pre-existing industrial economies never fall to communism - probably because organized labor and rising living standards take the wind out of those sails.

I think its a little too much to say that no industrialized nation was likely to fall to communism. Germany came closer than many were comfortable admitting, Hungary was very briefly a communist state and only really collapsed because Bela Kun tried to play Brest-Litovsk with a far smaller resource base. The industrialized nations really needed the same desperation and dysfunction that Russia had in 1917, and Germany came pretty close by 1918-19, but the counter-revolutionary forces were (like in Spain in the 1930s) better organized than the reverse.

But the point about organized labor is a good one for 'letting off steam' in more developed countries.
 
Admittedly, given the USA of this world is generation or two ahead on Civil Rights - the current VP is WEB DuBois, and the controversy isn't his race, but that old age has started hitting him hard - more economically egalitarian, and has a social safety net, I needed a very clear way to make the USA look less "utopian", especially since the other big "negative", mandatory military service, might be seen as Heinlein style wish fulfillment on my part (Just as in his case, it's not). Being a generation behind on women's rights more akin to Imperial Germany and Russia was the first idea I could come up with.

I remain open to other ideas.

Possibly women's rights could be as pushed back as you already have it (WWI does not necessarily guarantee women's voting rights, look at Belgium, the Netherlands and Switzerland) but you could also have workers rights cracked down on by the government after the revolution in the former Confederacy, breaking up Unions, pushing 'right to work laws' and generally rolling back the ability of unions to organize to try and 'strangle communism in its cradle' in the United States.

Additionally, Native Americans could remain poorly treated and disenfranchised in the United States?
 
I think its a little too much to say that no industrialized nation was likely to fall to communism. Germany came closer than many were comfortable admitting, Hungary was very briefly a communist state and only really collapsed because Bela Kun tried to play Brest-Litovsk with a far smaller resource base. The industrialized nations really needed the same desperation and dysfunction that Russia had in 1917, and Germany came pretty close by 1918-19, but the counter-revolutionary forces were (like in Spain in the 1930s) better organized than the reverse.

But the point about organized labor is a good one for 'letting off steam' in more developed countries.

You are right about Germany, but the post WW1 situation there was kind of unique - losing the war, and those rough early post war years too. For industrial nations, that shit is rare. Really rare.

As for the US, whats that old saying? "America doesn't have a lower class just temporarily embarrassed millionaires." Until recently the American dream worked.

What kind of government head of state does the CSSA use? A premiere? Do they still use president? A triumvirate?

I am still trying to figure that much out... even the proper title of the position. Communist systems adapted off a presidential not a parliamentary system are damned rare. Not to mention the whole General Secretary thing.
 
I am still trying to figure that much out... even the proper title of the position. Communist systems adapted off a presidential not a parliamentary system are damned rare. Not to mention the whole General Secretary thing.
I was reading on different types of communism last night (trying to figure out how a Red France would look post ww1), so maybe have something analogous to council communism by the "red neck" worker revolutionaries. After a few years of chaos in the developing CSSA, it eventually became a mix of Titoism and stalinism.
 
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