Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)
- Thread starter Not James Stockdale
- Start date
England surrenders for absolutely no reason because Churchill has been downing lead paint like a champ.
In that circumstance, he gets replaced and whoever follows refuses to surrender. Several members of the War Cabinet saw frontline service in WW1, the leader of Labour was even wounded storming a trench, at least one other member was mentioned in dispatches and I'm fairly sure they have a few medals in there somewhere.
The people in government in 1940 were many things, but never cowards.
It's still astounding - astounding! - to me that you actually think that Sealion was more feasible than Barbarossa.
Yes, if Churchill has to be sent to a padded cell in late summer 1940, then you end up with Eden as PM.
Attlee was firmly in the camp of "fight to the finish," and would refuse to serve under a Tory government that had Halifax or Chamberlain at its head at that point.
Either way, any German lodgment on the Isle of Wight is going to be very short lived. Hitler might as well ship them directly to Canadian POW camps and save everyone a lot of trouble.
There is another Black Adder character that this thread has often reminded me of, a certain captain Redbeard Rum. (Who apart from liking to "
Sail 'round and 'round the Isle of Wight 'til everyone gets dizzy. Then head for home. " had interesting views on the need for a crew.
Rum: The crew, milord?
Edmund: Yes, the crew.
Rum: What crew?
Edmund: I was under the impression that it was common maritime practice for a ship to have a crew.
Rum: Opinion is divided on the subject.
Edmund: Oh, really? [starting to get the picture]
Rum: Yahs. All the other captains say it is; I say it isn't.
Opinion on the feasibility of sea lion seems similarly divided.
I'm well aware. But apparently Glenn's new theory just assumes Halifax will override everyone and surrender, though.
Deleted member 94680
This. I often feel Atlee’s place in winning the War is overlooked. His presence and the Labour Party he lead preclude any handwaving peace feelers are in the realms of absurdity.
Lord Halifax wrote in his memoirs
One such interlude early in June 1940 is for ever graven into my memory. It was just after the fall of France, an event which at the time it happened seemed something unbelievable as to be almost surely unreal, and if not unreal then quite immeasurably catastrophic. Dorothy and I had spent a lovely summer evening walking over the Wolds, and on our way home sat in the sun for half an hour at a point looking across the plain of York. All the landscape of the nearer foreground was familiar—its sights, its sounds, its smells; hardly a field that did not call up some half-forgotten bit of association; the red-roofed village and nearby hamlets, gathered as it were for company round the old greystone church, where men and women like ourselves, now long dead and gone, had once knelt in worship and prayer. Here in Yorkshire was a true fragment of the undying England, like the White Cliffs of Dover, or any other part of our land that Englishmen have loved. Then the question came, is it possible that the Prussian jackboot will force its way into this countryside to tread and trample over it at will? The very thought seemed an insult and an outrage; much as if anyone were to be condemned to watch his mother, wife or daughter being raped.
Did he believe this at the time of the Cabinet Crisis? I doubt it, but it’s interesting he felt he had to justify and sculpt his change of position in this manner.
Also, British politics is not purely decided by the Prime Minister in isolation. Whoever the PM is, they have to carry their cabinet with them and the Parliament as well. It’s important to note that the Cabinet Crisis resulted in Churchill “convincing all who were present that Britain must fight on against Hitler whatever the cost. Churchill also obtained the backing of Neville Chamberlain, who was still Conservative Party leader.” The key point of Churchill’s speech? "If this long island story of ours is to end at last, let it end only when each one of us lies choking in his own blood upon the ground" Not that mamby-pamby and concerned about landings on the Isle of Wight, is it?
AHC post of the month!
(I know. It's the first day of the month. But I feel confident it will stick.)
Even if by some miracle Holy Fox ended up as PM by August-September and Attlee did not send him an exploding cat in the post, I think even he would have been boxed into a fight-to-the-end posture. Maybe not in May; but by late summer, the situation had fundamentally changed, and nearly the entire British political establishment (to say nothing of the cabinet) had hardened their attitude on the war.
What orders from Goering??? Don't think I've seen those so would be interested to read.
Of the 33 Ju87s that attacked the 5500t AA ship (8 x 4" high angle guns, 8 x 2pdr and various MGs) only two were shot down (6% ish, which isn't too bad really considering they were attacking such a heavily defended ship). The attack happened just outside Portland harbour with 22 bombs hitting the target killing over 170 of the crew.
And the thing is, contrary to Glenn's "surrender thesis," this should not surprise us. Early in 1940, nobody wanted to re-fight the carnage of 1914-1918. After France's surrender, Britain was alone against an enemy that had seemingly cracked the nut of modern warfare. Both of those raise serious arguments for a negotiated peace with Germany before something worse happens. Not winning arguments, but not lunatic ones either, at least in the context of the time.
But what's the "something worse"? The more time they have to think about it, the more people are going to think realistically instead of in a panic, and the more that's going to lead them to precisely the same end state every thread on this board ends up, which is that Germany can't defeat Britain anyways, so what's the point of surrendering.
Yes. I agree. As we know, Sea Lion/Wightlion can only work if every man in the British government starts drinking the strategic supply of lead paint into oblivion.
Guys, I’m not sure if it’s be raised yet but there’s another force that would slow down any land invasion, and that’s the civilians themselves, by this point a system had been set up to train and equip partisan troops that would literally be sniping and throwing sticky bombs at anything German they could find.
Again, I say this with the understanding that it was impossible for any force to make it across the channel.
Again, I say this with the understanding that it was impossible for any force to make it across the channel.
Source
I'll add that the German 'chutes operation meant that the users landed spreadeagled, with a large number of sprained wrists, broken fingers, etc.