AHC: Central Powers USA

Do you think the Entente could still win the War ?

  • They could ! (For Historical Determinists)

    Votes: 19 6.7%
  • Maybe ? It would be hard by they still got a shot

    Votes: 79 27.8%
  • No, they were already almost collapsing irl before the USA joined and would stand no chance

    Votes: 186 65.5%

  • Total voters
    284

Lusitania

Donor
Canada's gone, submerged by US forces before the British can blink. I could see western Canada annexed in order for Alaska to finally have a land bridge to connect the far-away territory with the continental US. It would also allow the US to obtain resources in western Canada such as the Albertan reserves and lumber for the war effort.

Meanwhile, the US doesn't really have to introduce its forces into Europe; they can serve as a deterrence in the North Atlantic and the West Pacific whilst Germany and company can bombard Europe.
I love how the US is the super power and can be waring country and everyone else is the same as iOTL.

But please explain how the heck US gets involved in this. Because if the US is this super shit bad country then the Canadian and British will also have built up a much better armed forces and defenses.

But since no one seems to think that. It’s like everyone other country is stupid or blind and US is suddenly a war monger and no one saw it coming.

Things don’t work like that. What changed in the US for it to give up it isolationist attitude. Majority of people in the US could not give a shit for what happened in Europe. (Heck we still have that attitude in whole bunch of people in the US). It took a shotload of events, 3 years worth for the opinion to change. How does it change in 1 month????????
 
The only parts of Canada that would actually be difficult to digest would probably be the Ontario peninsula and Quebec, but we'd probably spin Quebec off as a puppet republic and just take our pick of the rest. France loses for the second straight time, causing fingers to be pointed various ways. Britain's economy collapses along with France's. Germany carves some puppets out of Russia, puts military restrictions on the western Entente powers, takes some colonies in Africa and maybe Asia, takes anything with a German-speaking minority in France just to piss the French off (because there's a good idea :rolleyes:), and starts throwing big lavish military parades and thumbing their noses at the Brits while playing loud marching music. Austria does...something to Italy to get payback for the backstab, something nasty that AH can't actually enforce without German help. Ireland goes free and is now America's bestest friend ever. Ottomans survive, say "yeah the only people we owe jack shit to now are the Germans, Americans, and maybe some Austrians", and get to work fixing their economy and military.

Of course this entire situation is absurd because it'd take a LOT to get the USA to get involved (as it did OTL; it took the Germans repeatedly sinking our merchant ships as we repeatedly told them "don't sink our merchant ships, asshole" for us to get involved beyond grudgingly accepting IOUs from the Entente, and that was with an Anglophile president), but when we enter, the Central Powers wins in a year tops and America gets to carve up Canada like a prize turkey. I hear that the new state of Lincoln (formerly peninsular Ontario) is very nice in the springtime, and the state of Roosevelt (formerly Alberta) has some tar sands that might be worth looking at sometime if we ever run REALLY low on oil and/or don't give a crap about the environment.
 

Riain

Banned
Canada's gone, submerged by US forces before the British can blink. I could see western Canada annexed in order for Alaska to finally have a land bridge to connect the far-away territory with the continental US. It would also allow the US to obtain resources in western Canada such as the Albertan reserves and lumber for the war effort.

Meanwhile, the US doesn't really have to introduce its forces into Europe; they can serve as a deterrence in the North Atlantic and the West Pacific whilst Germany and company can bombard Europe.

Um, no.

There is no way the 1914 US Army of 3 peacetime (half strength) regular divisions and 12 poorly trained and equipped NG divisions are going to quickly steamroller 6 NPAM divisions (similar to the NG divisions) from a standing start while there is a revolution in Mexico spilling over the border.

The US did a couple of multi-division concentrations on the Mexican border in 1914-15 before send all 12 NG divisions in 1916. So in the event of the US going to war with the Entente in august 1914 at least some, maybe 2-4, NG divisions on the Mexican border.

Assuming no ther divisions are asdigned to othet task leaves the 3 regular and say 9 NG divisions to invade Canada. These will have to defeat the 6 NPAM divisions who are fighting on the defensive for their homeland. I'm not saying that 6 divisions will beat 12, they won't even on the defensive, but the 12 divisions will have to fight pretty hard to gain ground and will still only advance as far as the Germans against France in 1914 and Russia in 1915. As we know niether of those offensives ended the war in weeks or months.
 
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I love how the US is the super power and can be waring country and everyone else is the same as iOTL.

But please explain how the heck US gets involved in this. Because if the US is this super shit bad country then the Canadian and British will also have built up a much better armed forces and defenses.

But since no one seems to think that. It’s like everyone other country is stupid or blind and US is suddenly a war monger and no one saw it coming.

Things don’t work like that. What changed in the US for it to give up it isolationist attitude. Majority of people in the US could not give a shit for what happened in Europe. (Heck we still have that attitude in whole bunch of people in the US). It took a shotload of events, 3 years worth for the opinion to change. How does it change in 1 month????????

First off, you're literally putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about how the US would join the war; I only stated what would happen during the war. @Riain gave a more constructive criticism of my statement directly tackling my points for which I applaud him/her for. I explicitly left out the « how the US can enter the war » and answered the OP's later questions on his/her post about Canada and the situation with what the US can do as an ally to the Central Powers.

Did I say anything about the US changing their minds in one month ? Did I spout anything about how the US can quickly change their minds ? No. I only answered the OP's latter questions in regards to during the war, not before it-- of which I applaud @Riain for providing a well-thought out criticism of my post. Stop putting words in my mouth.
 
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Riain

Banned
First off, I never said anything about how the US would join the war; I only stated what would happen during the war. @Riain gave a more constructive criticism of my statement directly tackling my points for which I applaud him/her for. I explicitly left out the « how the US can enter the war » and answered the OP's later questions on his/her post about Canada and the situation with what the US can do as an ally to the Central Powers.

Did I say anything about the US changing their minds in one month ? Did I spout anything about how the US can quickly change their minds ? No. I only answered the OP's latter questions in regards to during the war, not before it-- of which I applaud @Riain for providing a well-thought out criticism of my post.

I find the pre 1917 US Army fascinating, maybe because its small enough to grasp and the thought of a tiny US Army is so alien these days. However the 'murica, fuck yeah ' crowd struggles with the concept of an unmilitarised US after a century of superpower and how difficult the mental hurdles were for 1915-17 US to jump through to become a superpower. It's a fascinating topic full of twists and turns.
 
I find the pre 1917 US Army fascinating, maybe because its small enough to grasp and the thought of a tiny US Army is so alien these days. However the 'murica, fuck yeah ' crowd struggles with the concept of an unmilitarised US after a century of superpower and how difficult the mental hurdles were for 1915-17 US to jump through to become a superpower. It's a fascinating topic full of twists and turns.

Frankly, I'm just thinking this off this from the top of my head which was why I left out the part on how the US entered the war. I never truly studied 20th century geopolitics (my interest is more Renaissance, art history, and economics) but I do love learning from it from your posts and others in this thread. It's why I left out how the US can enter the war.

Speaking of which, do you have any theories on how the US can enter the war with a POD of 1900 ? This is after all an « AHC » for which I have yet to ponder about
 
Make the United States (With a Post-1900 PoD) join the Central Powers in August 1914. There needs to be a great swift in alignment of American politics for that to happen for sure, but how ? Maybe USA and Britain enter in a Crisis during/after the Hispano-American War ? More German Immigrants to America ? A different President ?

And what terms would the USA demand if they won ? Canada ? And what if they Lost ?
Many are trying to posit how the USA could be drawn into the war, but most of these require a very changed world from OTL. Although we are asked to get the USA into the Central Powers in August 1914, how about July of 1914 instead, and no real changes from OTL before fall 1913, so the world is almost identical to OTL? This gets us to the required USA in the Central Powers by (actually 1 month before) the deadline, and yet leaves the world almost exactly as in OTL.

Any interest, thoughts or comments on my undisclosed POD?

Many have rightly pointed out that in 1914, the US military is completely unprepared for a large scale war, let alone one fought far from home. Additionally, it has been pointed out that most pod's need for a good long time to get to the point where the US has an interest in fighting in a war in Europe at all, but my POD allows for us to explore a situation that might be bent to our ends and get to an unprepared/surprised USA finding itself in a war, against the Entente/alongside the Central Powers. To be sure, my point of divergence may be such that there just might not even be a WWI to start with, but that is surely another path that might be worth exploring...

A hint is included in the provided link above.
 

Riain

Banned
Frankly, I'm just thinking this off this from the top of my head which was why I left out the part on how the US entered the war. I never truly studied 20th century geopolitics (my interest is more Renaissance, art history, and economics) but I do love learning from it from your posts and others in this thread. It's why I left out how the US can enter the war.

Speaking of which, do you have any theories on how the US can enter the war with a POD of 1900 ? This is after all an « AHC » for which I have yet to ponder about

I don't need to know how realistic the PoD is to count troops, divisions, ships and guns, these things existed without the magical PoD so I have no problem discussing them. The correlation of forces between the US and Canada is obviously in the US' favour, a field army of ~47,000 and NG of about ~170,000 against a Regular Army of 3100 and Militia of ~74,000, but those ratios are not so bad as to predict a walkover within weeks. The US could expand far to a far, far greater extent than Canada but it will have to do so while fully engaged from day one with reasonably sized Canadian forces and we know that it took an already mobilised US 15 months to get into divisional and corps sized fighting in France, so that process won't be particularly quick.

I have no PoD, however the US did spend a lot of time leading up to WW1 intervening in Latin America, so that might be an avenue. Similarly terrible US-Mexico relations were a big driver behind the Zimmerman Telegram, indeed when it was sent the US had the entire National Guard mobilised on the Tex-Mex border and the Regular Army was on active operations deep inside Mexico, so perhaps there's another avenue.
 
I don't need to know how realistic the PoD is to count troops, divisions, ships and guns, these things existed without the magical PoD so I have no problem discussing them. The correlation of forces between the US and Canada is obviously in the US' favour, a field army of ~47,000 and NG of about ~170,000 against a Regular Army of 3100 and Militia of ~74,000, but those ratios are not so bad as to predict a walkover within weeks. The US could expand far to a far, far greater extent than Canada but it will have to do so while fully engaged from day one with reasonably sized Canadian forces and we know that it took an already mobilised US 15 months to get into divisional and corps sized fighting in France, so that process won't be particularly quick.

I have no PoD, however the US did spend a lot of time leading up to WW1 intervening in Latin America, so that might be an avenue. Similarly terrible US-Mexico relations were a big driver behind the Zimmerman Telegram, indeed when it was sent the US had the entire National Guard mobilised on the Tex-Mex border and the Regular Army was on active operations deep inside Mexico, so perhaps there's another avenue.

First, I did the research on the French with regards specifically to their Steel/Iron industry. Here's the detailed breakdown of imports, exports, and overall production by years as well as some commentary on the national origin of such. Further, I think discussion on this matter should note what exactly the situation of the French was in August of 1914:

As early as August 1914, France was one of the most devastated countries. Following the invasion and occupation of northern and eastern France by German forces, France lost 14 percent of its industrial output. Before the war, this area produced 75 percent of the French coal production, 81 percent of the iron, 63 percent of the steel, 85 percent of the linen, 94 percent of the wool, and 75 percent of the sugar.[1] The frontline crossed the coal basin in northern France so that the colliers of Bethune had to work several days and nights under enemy shelling.

Next, the assumptions with regards to Canada/U.S. deserve two points of contention:

1. Within this thread potential countermeasures for the Entente to U.S. entry prior to the war have been speculated and suggested, yet we're still using the IOTL 1914 structure of the U.S. Military as the basis for early operations. This is inherently flawed in my opinion for the obvious bias here.

2. Utilizing your own numbers, the U.S. has 217,000 men to Canada's 78,000 which is a margin just shy of 3 to 1. Given the reality that all strategic areas of Canada are within a few dozen miles of the border and the sheer scale of said border, this advantage in force size means the U.S. can rapidly seize vital areas, especially given that Canada's forces are more apt to be guarding the east given the population centers. This means that targets like Winnipeg are ripe to be taken by the U.S. with all that entails for Canada. Further, I think it bares pointing out that only 0.039% of Canada's forces are professional soldiers while the rest is militia. Their value for offensives will be zero and I'd honestly question their value on defense, given the U.S. has nearly as many regulars as Canada has soldiers.
 

Lusitania

Donor
First off, you're literally putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about how the US would join the war; I only stated what would happen during the war. @Riain gave a more constructive criticism of my statement directly tackling my points for which I applaud him/her for. I explicitly left out the « how the US can enter the war » and answered the OP's later questions on his/her post about Canada and the situation with what the US can do as an ally to the Central Powers.

Did I say anything about the US changing their minds in one month ? Did I spout anything about how the US can quickly change their minds ? No. I only answered the OP's latter questions in regards to during the war, not before it-- of which I applaud @Riain for providing a well-thought out criticism of my post. Stop putting words in my mouth.
The criticism was not directed at you specifically but at all those who have posted. For I have identified the issues previously already and it was ignored.

When people do a comparison of military And how fast military this would of happen or not please consider that Canada has a larger contribution, industrial capacity, men who volunteered and casualties inthe WW1 than the US. WHEN compared to Population % and % of GDP involved in war. Canada was in it for the whole 4 years.

I take any idea that USA fights allied side in 1914 right away hard to take based on the mind set of the American public hard to take. IOTL There were repeated German attacks on civilians, use of chemical weapons and finally the deliberate sinking of passenger ships with hundreds if not thousands of American lives lost to finally change enough Americans minds to join the war. So for a single action to set off the Americans like France invading Belgium in 1914 enough is almost impossible to see how it would bring US into the war when it did not do so iOTL.

All that said a POD could of happen in history to put the US in anti French and anti British camp prior to war and USA to join the war in Germany side. But any POD would mean that Canada see uSA as threat prior to WW1 and be constructing defenses and that any war in North America be fought in similar ways to what happen in Europe.

Will the USA win YES, will the war be a cakewalk over in few weeks NO. While I reference turtledove series with reluctance for obvious reasons he did provide two things that were realistic 1) a scenario where the USA wins but only after a very long fought struggle and a 2) POD. Those are the two issues that I find lacking in most posts.

So if I offended anyone I apologize but the thread was to provide a realistic POD and what would happen that was what I asked.
 

Riain

Banned
First, I did the research on the French with regards specifically to their Steel/Iron industry. Here's the detailed breakdown of imports, exports, and overall production by years as well as some commentary on the national origin of such. Further, I think discussion on this matter should note what exactly the situation of the French was in August of 1914:



Next, the assumptions with regards to Canada/U.S. deserve two points of contention:

1. Within this thread potential countermeasures for the Entente to U.S. entry prior to the war have been speculated and suggested, yet we're still using the IOTL 1914 structure of the U.S. Military as the basis for early operations. This is inherently flawed in my opinion for the obvious bias here.

2. Utilizing your own numbers, the U.S. has 217,000 men to Canada's 78,000 which is a margin just shy of 3 to 1. Given the reality that all strategic areas of Canada are within a few dozen miles of the border and the sheer scale of said border, this advantage in force size means the U.S. can rapidly seize vital areas, especially given that Canada's forces are more apt to be guarding the east given the population centers. This means that targets like Winnipeg are ripe to be taken by the U.S. with all that entails for Canada. Further, I think it bares pointing out that only 0.039% of Canada's forces are professional soldiers while the rest is militia. Their value for offensives will be zero and I'd honestly question their value on defense, given the U.S. has nearly as many regulars as Canada has soldiers.

I couldn't open those pages in the link, however from a bit of scraping around France was a net exporter of steel (to pick one thing) in 1913 and 1914 and got by on 2.1 million tonnes in 1915, 1 million of which was imported. I doubt cutting off the US' portion of that will force France to the negotiating table in 1915, it would take until 1916 or 17 for that to happen.

As for US-Canada, the OP specifically wanted a quick turnaround by the US as not to change everything with a totally different leadup. I can't think of a PoD for that, however if it is assumed that it is possible then looking at the 1914 correlation of forces is relevant.

Yes the US has 47k regulars and 170k NG compared to the tiny PAM but reasonable NPAM. However, as I stated, the US can't leave its Mexican border unguarded due to the revolution there and hair-brained schemes such as Plan San Diego and the July 1914 seizure of Santa Cruz by the Marines and Army. It is likely that several US divisions will be tasked to guard the Mexican border, meaning they are unable to invade Canada. In 1914 the US was occupying Nicaragua, had recently occupied and IOTL would soon again occupy Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti and Honduras, all of which will require beefed up garrisons in the event of war, drawing troops from the immediate invasion of Canada. Then there are the British and French positions in and around the Carribean that the US will want to invade and occupy, a further drain on troops for the invasion of Canada.

Further, you question the utility of the NPAM in offense and even defense, which in terms of offense is likely justified but less so with regards to Defence. However the same factors apply to the NG, likely useless on offense but useful on defence. So the invasion of Canada will have to be undertaken by whatever regular forces are left over after all of the other tasks are covered, maybe 2/3 of the regular Army, backed by 2/3 of the NG, maybe 150,000 against 76,000. Now undoubtedly the US RA is better trained than the QPAM, but not so much so that they can take on double their numbers on the defensive and prevail, let alone prevail in weeks over the longest distances in WW1. Instead the RA will have to work with the NG to bring superior numbers to bear against the Canadians, doable of course but certainly no 5 minute walk in the park.
 
My comment on comparing Canada and Russia was based on weather not distance. While I know the cities are relatively close they are spread out causing the US to spread themselves out to launch multiple offensives. Still not easy for the US.

The weather is slightly warmer in Toronto and Montreal compared to, say, Moscow or Leningrad, but they get (slightly) more snow. Also, Moscow and other inland Russian cities have lower record lows than Toronto and Montreal, and one of these winters just so happened to be 1941-1942, the coldest of the 20th century and the one where the Nazis were at the gates of Moscow.

As for distance, the Great Lakes makes things a bit simpler, assuming naval superiority is won. The lakes were officially demilitarised after the War of 1812, so either the associated treaties are violated (if the US is likely to join Central Powers, this is likely), or they'll need to move enough ships to the lakes or build new ships. Canada and the US have their industrial cores next to the lakes, but I think the US would be able to churn out more ships than the Canadians. The Germans and Americans on the Atlantic will prevent any reinforcement of the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence from Europe.

Once the Great Lakes are secured for shipping, then you really only have 3 fronts of any real importance. The longest runs along the Vermont and New York borders to Lake Ontario and is about 425 km long. A lot of that is also the St. Lawrence River and Lake Champlain. That's a distance typical of the Eastern Front. The second is the 58 km long Niagara River, and the third is about 135 km long and runs along Lake St. Clair and the Detroit/St. Clair rivers. That's a total of 618 km, plus Lake Erie and Lake Ontario which I assume the British or Canadians will never be able to seriously contest.

The only parts of Canada that would actually be difficult to digest would probably be the Ontario peninsula and Quebec, but we'd probably spin Quebec off as a puppet republic and just take our pick of the rest. France loses for the second straight time, causing fingers to be pointed various ways. Britain's economy collapses along with France's. Germany carves some puppets out of Russia, puts military restrictions on the western Entente powers, takes some colonies in Africa and maybe Asia, takes anything with a German-speaking minority in France just to piss the French off (because there's a good idea :rolleyes:), and starts throwing big lavish military parades and thumbing their noses at the Brits while playing loud marching music. Austria does...something to Italy to get payback for the backstab, something nasty that AH can't actually enforce without German help. Ireland goes free and is now America's bestest friend ever. Ottomans survive, say "yeah the only people we owe jack shit to now are the Germans, Americans, and maybe some Austrians", and get to work fixing their economy and military.

I don't think Quebec would be granted independence when the US wins, since the Quebec independence movement wasn't really born yet, but the experience of the war would drive such a permanent wedge between Francophone and Anglophone Canadians that such a movement would emerge much earlier that within a few decades, Quebec independence would be inevitable as the United States ensures a fair referendum occurs on it. IMO Quebec would probably end up a major source of collaboration with the Americans since OTL the Quebecois felt they were dragged into the war by the British (not that they were sympathetic to the Central Powers) and when faced with the wrath of the United States, would prefer to stay neutral rather than face the American invasion which would devastate Quebec.

In Western Canada, I suspect that the Queen Charlotte Islands would be annexed to the US, and probably parts of Yukon. I wouldn't be surprised if all of Canada west of the Continental Divide (most of Yukon and BC) became American, since there's so few Canadians there to begin with and a land route to Alaska is very nice.

Once Quebec gains independence, I suspect the Maritimes will gain independence too, leaving Canada consisting of Ontario through Alberta. This Canada could focus more on the affairs of the Western provinces to avoid the OTL disputes with Alberta and such. Newfoundland probably won't remain a British dominion. The Royal Newfoundland Regiment will probably fight in Canada or the Carribean, and will suffer a similar fate to OTL no doubt. If/when Newfoundland hits a financial crisis, I wouldn't be surprised if the US steps in on behalf of some politicians there and makes it a puppet state akin to what the US did during the Banana Wars. The US could make a better deal than the embattled, defeated UK.

Of course this entire situation is absurd because it'd take a LOT to get the USA to get involved (as it did OTL; it took the Germans repeatedly sinking our merchant ships as we repeatedly told them "don't sink our merchant ships, asshole" for us to get involved beyond grudgingly accepting IOUs from the Entente, and that was with an Anglophile president), but when we enter, the Central Powers wins in a year tops and America gets to carve up Canada like a prize turkey. I hear that the new state of Lincoln (formerly peninsular Ontario) is very nice in the springtime, and the state of Roosevelt (formerly Alberta) has some tar sands that might be worth looking at sometime if we ever run REALLY low on oil and/or don't give a crap about the environment.

True enough, but I think Central Powers US is a fun scenario, especially if you can buff the British and French to not fold within a year of it due to lack of US imports and the effect of the US Navy.

2. Utilizing your own numbers, the U.S. has 217,000 men to Canada's 78,000 which is a margin just shy of 3 to 1. Given the reality that all strategic areas of Canada are within a few dozen miles of the border and the sheer scale of said border, this advantage in force size means the U.S. can rapidly seize vital areas, especially given that Canada's forces are more apt to be guarding the east given the population centers. This means that targets like Winnipeg are ripe to be taken by the U.S. with all that entails for Canada. Further, I think it bares pointing out that only 0.039% of Canada's forces are professional soldiers while the rest is militia. Their value for offensives will be zero and I'd honestly question their value on defense, given the U.S. has nearly as many regulars as Canada has soldiers.

If the US is in the war, then not a single Canadian is going to Europe. No Canadian Expeditionary Force. Winnipeg might be 100 km up the Red River from North Dakota, but I doubt the US could actually do more than raid the outskirts in 1914/early 1915 given their lack of soldiers. I doubt the US could make any effective offensives for a year.

Of course as noted, a Central Powers US will have different military priorities, and Britain/Canada will react accordingly, including militarising the Great Lakes which will be responded to by the US.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
If the U.S. joins the Central Powers in August of 1914, the war is over by Christmas, no question. If the U.S. joins at any time in the war period, the war is over within months if not instantly, again no question.

Tempting, but I don't think it is right. More than year for USA to win the war for the CP. US Army will not be big influence since so small. BEF still goes to Belgium. A-H still makes blunders in the east. What we see with land units is that the Canadians will not go to Europe, but fight at home. Aussies will likely be fighting to take PI. This is an indecisive mess.

The US Navy will not go to merchant warfare immediately, but will be fighting a series of battles against a talented and large Navy. The Grand Fleet will not be sitting in port. The UK will be in a much worse situation, but it will take time to have effects. i.e. UK can route a lot of shipping via eastern Atlantic.

So we still like roll around to April 1915. A-H is in a mess, will need German help. Western front could be worse for Entente or could be much the same. Supplies are getting bad for UK and France. Hard to see CP wrapping up war before August 1915. Just so much to do.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
You can't extract more money from African tribes or Vietnamese fisherman simply because the fiscal capacity isn't there and cannot be there ever; otherwise you've so changed those places they won't become colonies in the first places. And the Entente cannot just print money sufficient to fund their needs for the conflict without collapsing under the weight of hyper-inflation. I'll repost something from Mike Stone back from SHWI:



Leaving aside the issue of finances, a hostile U.S. dooms the Entente due to resource shortages as well. As noted, by 1918 France was importing thirty times her 1913 total of steel from the United States. With the Americans out, who do the French turn to? There is no one else on the globe that has the industrial capacity to do such. There's also other sectors, especially oil:





Not saying it is or isn't realistic, was just saying that's the only Post-1900 PoD I've saw.

Actually they can print the money, they did IOTL via bonds. What will happen is that imports from outside the French and British empires will be paid for by gold. Imports inside the empire will be paid for by bonds that are in theory payable in gold after the world. We immediately get to the hard Ruble, soft Ruble type situation the USSR had. So we can assume unlimited extraction of supplies from the empire and probably from outside for a while (not adjusting for US Navy). If the Entente does not have access to the USA, what is the big import market beside South American beef?

So the Entente will have plenty of tea. Plenty of rice if the UK is not worried about a famine in India. Shortages of oil
 
Um, no.

There is no way the 1914 US Army of 3 peacetime (half strength) regular divisions and 12 poorly trained and equipped NG divisions are going to quickly steamroller 6 NPAM divisions (similar to the NG divisions) from a standing start while there is a revolution in Mexico spilling over the border.

The US did a couple of multi-division concentrations on the Mexican border in 1914-15 before send all 12 NG divisions in 1916. So in the event of the US going to war with the Entente in august 1914 at least some, maybe 2-4, NG divisions on the Mexican border.

Assuming no ther divisions are asdigned to othet task leaves the 3 regular and say 9 NG divisions to invade Canada. These will have to defeat the 6 NPAM divisions who are fighting on the defensive for their homeland. I'm not saying that 6 divisions will beat 12, they won't even on the defensive, but the 12 divisions will have to fight pretty hard to gain ground and will still only advance as far as the Germans against France in 1914 and Russia in 1915. As we know niether of those offensives ended the war in weeks or months.

That depends on where those NPAM divisions are. While I fully agree the invasion is going to be slow going, the US has the advantage of the attack on a broad front in that they can concentrate to launch an offensive at a place and time of their choosing, while the Canadians while have to defuse their professional forces and supplies or risk leaving a point vulnerable to the establishing (local) American strategic supremacy. Due to rail limitations, we can safely discount the Pacific side of the Rockies for this, but everything east of Bismark is fair game.

Where are the Canadians going to put their divisions? The St.Lawrence valley is vital, so that's likely going to get the lions share, but what about New Brunswick to keep Halifax open to support a British releif force? What about the Western rails spurring out of Winnipeg and the shipping ports on Lake Superior that being in the grain and ore? The Ontario Penninsulia, vulnerable strategically as it is but containing the bulk of Canadian industry?
 
Actually they can print the money, they did IOTL via bonds. What will happen is that imports from outside the French and British empires will be paid for by gold. Imports inside the empire will be paid for by bonds that are in theory payable in gold after the world. We immediately get to the hard Ruble, soft Ruble type situation the USSR had. So we can assume unlimited extraction of supplies from the empire and probably from outside for a while (not adjusting for US Navy). If the Entente does not have access to the USA, what is the big import market beside South American beef?

So the Entente will have plenty of tea. Plenty of rice if the UK is not worried about a famine in India. Shortages of oil

Tonnage is going to quickly become an issue if you now have to buy/ship replacement sources of food from within the Empire rather than via American commercial shipping. Especially if you're shifting the main route to the longer Bengal-Britain distance (more time tied up in transit). Plus the loss of resources from Canada once the US snips the lifelines there (naval blockade and rail seizure) right when domestic production of those raw resources is set to take a dip
 

Lusitania

Donor
That depends on where those NPAM divisions are. While I fully agree the invasion is going to be slow going, the US has the advantage of the attack on a broad front in that they can concentrate to launch an offensive at a place and time of their choosing, while the Canadians while have to defuse their professional forces and supplies or risk leaving a point vulnerable to the establishing (local) American strategic supremacy. Due to rail limitations, we can safely discount the Pacific side of the Rockies for this, but everything east of Bismark is fair game.

Where are the Canadians going to put their divisions? The St.Lawrence valley is vital, so that's likely going to get the lions share, but what about New Brunswick to keep Halifax open to support a British releif force? What about the Western rails spurring out of Winnipeg and the shipping ports on Lake Superior that being in the grain and ore? The Ontario Penninsulia, vulnerable strategically as it is but containing the bulk of Canadian industry?
The issue is that while a scenario of US being belingerant and threatening to Britain and France may not affect American military preparation and standing army since at that time there was no great support for large standing US army but it would of affected Canadian identity and politics.

IOTL Canadian military preparedness and size plus industrialization was only possible due to relative friendly relations between Canada/Britain and USA. If that was to change you can expect that all of that would of changed and that Canadians would of responded in an alarmed way to American aggression prior to war.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Tonnage is going to quickly become an issue if you now have to buy/ship replacement sources of food from within the Empire rather than via American commercial shipping. Especially if you're shifting the main route to the longer Bengal-Britain distance (more time tied up in transit). Plus the loss of resources from Canada once the US snips the lifelines there (naval blockade and rail seizure) right when domestic production of those raw resources is set to take a dip

Largely agree. With small US Army and Large Royal Navy, the Canadian lines might be kept open for a while. Depends on how the UK allocates resources.
 

Lusitania

Donor
The issue is that while a scenario of US being belingerant and threatening to Britain and France may not affect American military preparation and standing army since at that time there was no great support for large standing US army but it would of affected Canadian identity and politics.

IOTL Canadian military preparedness and size plus industrialization was only possible due to relative friendly relations between Canada/Britain and USA. If that was to change you can expect that all of that would of changed and that Canadians would of responded in an alarmed way to American aggression prior to war.
In Canada we have a saying that living next door to the US is like living next door to an elephant you feel it every time it moves but we are practically invisible to it.
 
Couple things:
Bring Italy into the war, and spark an earlier and stronger Irish uprising, so you have all three immigrant communities pushing for a pro central powers neutrality. This in turn forces Wilson (or whoever) to take a less amiable position against Britains blockade. That, plus business interests between the us and the central powers, might eventually draw them in.
Say Italy joins in 1914 (leas disastrous Austrian performance and Alberto Pollio surviving), Russia collapses late 1915 (gorlice tarnow falls in its face woth an austroa not fighting on three fronts) and the US enters in late 1916 or so in response to British actions at sea.
 
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