Stupid Luck and Happenstance, Thread II
- Thread starter Peabody-Martini
- Start date
Wow! Just caught up on the action, and boy!!!! Did the USSS REALLY screw the pooch @ the meeting b/t Truman & the Kaiser!!!! It is a MAJOR diplomatic No-No to screw with another head-of-state's security detail. Period. No where, No when! Not if you don't want YOUR OWN security detail stripped to their skivvies when in their house (or aircraft or ship or w/e).
The USSS could have totally FUBAR'ed* any agreement(s) to be reached by Truman & the Kaiser by their stupid, infantile, IGNORANT reaction to Kat being the Kaiser's bodyguard. Duh, like she's going to hurt/kill a foreign Head-of-State in the presence of HER boss??? Come on, REALLY???? That would be Casus Belli and I don't think the Kaiser would be down with that, not at all!! Both Kat & the Kaiser would instinctively know that if Kat attacked Truman, neither she nor the Kaiser would make it out of the aircraft alive; the German Empire & the USA would be at each other's throats & doubtless exchanging nukes within hours (at the most).
One might even think of chastising our esteemed P-M for writing such a scenario as he did ("Oh, it's too far out there!!" Or, "They wouldn't be that stupid" {oh, yes they would!!}), but damn if the scenario couldn't/wouldn't have happened exactly as written!! And I betcha 5 pfennigs there's not a single woman on Truman's USSS detail, you know, to temper some of the more over-the-top testosterone-fueled ridiculousness.
Most excellent writing
*[FUBAR = Fouled Up Beyond All Repair] (Polite, non-vulgar version)
The USSS could have totally FUBAR'ed* any agreement(s) to be reached by Truman & the Kaiser by their stupid, infantile, IGNORANT reaction to Kat being the Kaiser's bodyguard. Duh, like she's going to hurt/kill a foreign Head-of-State in the presence of HER boss??? Come on, REALLY???? That would be Casus Belli and I don't think the Kaiser would be down with that, not at all!! Both Kat & the Kaiser would instinctively know that if Kat attacked Truman, neither she nor the Kaiser would make it out of the aircraft alive; the German Empire & the USA would be at each other's throats & doubtless exchanging nukes within hours (at the most).
One might even think of chastising our esteemed P-M for writing such a scenario as he did ("Oh, it's too far out there!!" Or, "They wouldn't be that stupid" {oh, yes they would!!}), but damn if the scenario couldn't/wouldn't have happened exactly as written!! And I betcha 5 pfennigs there's not a single woman on Truman's USSS detail, you know, to temper some of the more over-the-top testosterone-fueled ridiculousness.
Most excellent writing
*[FUBAR = Fouled Up Beyond All Repair] (Polite, non-vulgar version)
You know? Odds are that the leak, if it happens will come ironically from the VERY idiots in the Secret Service, one of those cowboys....soo cheerful to proclaim slightly drunk in the bar in DC during their free time how they scored one in showing her place to that "Uppity Kraut Bitch".....unaware that a liberal press reporter its hearing all the stuff.
Kat doesn't cares, neither Louis Ferdinand, likely following how Kat was uncaring of being disarmed, and knowing that odds were that she had MORE hidden stuff. The problem it would be once it leaks.
If anyone thinks back in an older post , Kurt Knispel bemoaned in a level of the unavoidable effect of being now a legendary figure. While not as public, Katherine Von Mischner not only its in a level as legendary, but also she its a pioneer of Female Rights and that Women CAN serve as well as Men in the Armed Forces, and for the German Population and symbol of the "Volk"..........
Short to say, when Kira AND Gia learn of the incident....for not talk of the German Opinion, Truman its going to have to deal with a shitstorm of his own. Kat will be either baffled or annoyed to WHY everyone its ready to punch an American in the face for the stunt....
Odds at this point is that Nancy will take that as proof that her birth country its mostly lead for morons, and finally renounce her nationality and drag Tilo to the wedding Altar....
While I love the writing its "lets eat tons of lead paint for no reason" moments like this that tend to seriously jar me out of the story. Yes it WAS a major cockup for the Secret Service to do this since, surprise surprise it is internationally accepted policy for body guards to remain armed in the presence of world leaders and no one will even attempt to make the other guy give up his weapons. In fact the second someone even suggested such a thing, once the senior service members were done tossing the offender into the cargo hold to cool off, they would rush after the Kiaser and Kat, (who rightly would have turned around and walked off the plane and if the President wants to meet he can come over to MY aircraft for a visit thank you) to beg forgiveness. (No lost pride they're fired anyway for allowing it to happen in the first place)
Short of leaders of belligerent nations directly involved in an ongoing war, (and there's ways of working even that) the plain and simple fact is they are neither allowed nor have any ability to compel a leaders body guards or escorts to remove their weapons and that has been a 'thing' since the middle ages so having the US do it makes absolutely no sense and there is no way Truman would allow, or condone such a practice. The idea that one needs the suggested level of 'safety' outside some "Warlords" meeting is anathema to modern civilization because the body guards by general agreement at such meeting are there to protect EVERYONE, (there is a special 'squad' charged directly with the main leaders safety but everyone else is there to protect everyone equally, period) and as such you NEVER dilute your defense for some obscure political point or grudge. Ever.
The Kaiser would and should have turned around an walk out even if he felt the meeting was direly critical the issue is THAT important. Sorry can't happen. (And in fact if we want to say this DID happen he's screwed up pretty badly and Kat rather fatally since she's now proven she is susceptible to hostile influence into compromising the Kaiser's safety) It matters not on little bit that Kat "could" have still died in tying to protect the Kaiser she failed outright in showing she was a credible protector. Again Period, Full Stop. The "unloading" scene is of course usually amusing but in context it is not at all so and presents Germany as the weaker and supplicant state to the US. The Kaiser then confirmed this by not protesting and walking out. Not threatening to do so but flat out doing so as would have been his full and complete right and actually duty to do. So in essence for a non-amusing scene PM has basically presented the US (with an albeit secret but really that doesn't matter a bit because it will be noted to all future Presidents who will treat Germany accordingly and Germany will just have to accept it since the Kaiser did), defacto display of German fealty and subservience to the US on an official basis.
Really don't think that's where this was supposed to end up but there you are. No one in the Secret Service could find a single justifiable reason to even suggest such a thing no matter how much they 'feared' Kat because the diplomatic and international consequences are far to vast. Especially since the Kaiser came WITH only "one" (1) body guard. Civilized nations to not do this to each other and especially will not under such conditions. Period. If the Secret Service was that afraid of Kat the meeting would never have taken place no matter what Truman said or ordered. Again, period. This is their main job, (people tend to forget they are part of the Treasury department but don't let that fool you the ones that are assigned protective details are totally separate and this alone IS their PRIMARY job and nothing else) and they actually DO have over-ride capability over final decisions on the protectee's itinerary. If they 'fear' Kat enough to even think about asking her to disarm then the meeting doesn't happen and Truman can call the Kaiser on the phone or meet with a 'proper' escort. His choice. (And yes, several "protectee's" have found out the exact limits of their 'power' this way)
No, actually having a woman on the protctive detail would have made no difference the Secret Service itself is well aware of ALL the rules. Written, un-written and unspoken. This was so far over the top that Truman should, could and most defiantly would fire everyone from the Secretary of the Treasury to the janitor in the main office of the protective service branch and no one would say a word, it is that far out of bounds.
If this stands then Truman is irrelevent as is the US itself, (which I get seems to be PM's aim often but that's going to make a poor story) because no matter the underlying circumstances word WILL get out of this. If nothing else the German foreign office will send note in diplomatic pouches and the US and any future President will be neither welcome nor invited to any international meetings. This would be ample proof they are neither civilized nor to be trusted to abide or even understand international law, agreement or tradition. They will have NO standing or voice in international affairs until all involved parties are removed from positions of power or foreign dealings, (and ye that includes Truman and most of his administration) and 'adequate' guarantees given that such events will not happen in the future. As fallout the Kaiser will be disallowed from performing foreign diplomatic details without escort one of which will NOT be Kat who will be retired and pensioned off and sent to live at her beach house not to leave without escort or permission. And her family and friends may be confused but even a smidgen of the details and they will be FINE with it. Again, yes it's THAT serious an issue.
So yes the writing is fine and the 'episode' an amusing piece of fiction on why Germany went to war with the US in an alternate reality or why the world turned the US into TTL's version of North Korea and ending the timeline but short of that it's totally un-supportable in any possible or plausible way.
As PM has not in fact ended the timeline and is probably going to let this stand I'll just keep reading but it's getting harder and harder to suspend the disbelief as things keep piling up. Yes it DAMN good writing but the digressions into ASB territory to allow amusing asides are getting a bit thick.
Randy
This isn't a 'possibility' it is a certainty which is one of the numerous reasons it couldn't happen. Everyone always assumes and plans for a 'secret' to get out to not do so it to invite disaster in for tea and give it your house and car keys and your bank account information with a cheery wave and pat of the back. Between the number of people involved in setting up the meeting and all the surrounding and ancillary work there are far to many for this to NOT eventually come to light.
Unless they are both far more nieve and clueless than we've been led to believe at any point in the timeline they not only SHOULD care but by default Kat HAS to care and Louis's duty demanded that he care AT THE TIME! That neither did displays exaclly the opposite and major issues than people think.
And it will since the end result here is German/US obvioulsy pre-arraned cooperation in stopping the current war. This is exactly the kind of 'secrets' that can not by nature stay secret.
You missed one. Once the Kaiserene learns of this she'll have Louis keel hauled since this is exactly the behavior that got her family canned initially in Russia. If Kat is "baffled" she's an idiot which is in no way indicated at all previously. The implications of what has happened are so far beyond any 'personal' feelings as to be immaterial. The precedent set at that moment was ALL wrong for Germany and would have and should have been unacceptable from the start. That it wasn't calls into question both Louis and Kat's reputation, competence and even sanity as much as Truman's and the Secret Service agents.
The only one who would need Nancy to 'renounce' her birth nation to marry Tilo is Nancy and her "conflict" of interest is mostly self-inflicted. Once she was officially 'let-go' by the CIA she was no longer a liability or an asset she's just an ex-employee. By this point any possible utility she had is gone and quite obviously she'll never regain the access she had previously. (Finley may be fired but that's small comfort to Nancy as he'd done all the damage he could do long before this point. Truman can apologize though he really shouldn't since he didn't have anything to directly do with the episode but being Truman he had to make an attempt because it was who is was. In the end it won't make any difference to Nancy or her situation and her Mothers right in that it is HER that has to move on and deal with the new reality. The problem as noted though it Nancy is her own worst enemy and I'm surprised Kat or most of the rest of the sister's haven't picked up on this considering the breadth and depth of the experience available with mental issues.
Randy
There has been some very good points that have been made in the past few posts but I think that we really do not comprehend how deep a hole that the United States is ITTL.
After the disillusionment that the United States went thru after The Great War it went in to a deep funk with the Fourth Great Awakening and turned inwards in itself and isolated themselves from the rest of the world.
American Presidents did not meet with other Heads of States overseas, there was very little contact between the fledgling American Intelligence Agencies and other countries and there is no institutional memory to draw on.
President Truman may not like the Germans but he knows that first and foremost that the Germans are PROFESSIONALS thru and thru and Truman wants the Americans to emulate that point.
As an example when Paul went to grab Kat, he did it impulsively, with no planning what so ever, and without clearing it with his superiors.
An Abwher agent would have first contacted his superiors to get permission and the operation would have been thoroughly planned out to the smallest details.
This is going to take the Americans a long time to work thru and Truman is just starting to make some headway but he still needs to get rid of a lot of people who are not seeing what is needed for the United States to compete on the world stage.
After the disillusionment that the United States went thru after The Great War it went in to a deep funk with the Fourth Great Awakening and turned inwards in itself and isolated themselves from the rest of the world.
American Presidents did not meet with other Heads of States overseas, there was very little contact between the fledgling American Intelligence Agencies and other countries and there is no institutional memory to draw on.
President Truman may not like the Germans but he knows that first and foremost that the Germans are PROFESSIONALS thru and thru and Truman wants the Americans to emulate that point.
As an example when Paul went to grab Kat, he did it impulsively, with no planning what so ever, and without clearing it with his superiors.
An Abwher agent would have first contacted his superiors to get permission and the operation would have been thoroughly planned out to the smallest details.
This is going to take the Americans a long time to work thru and Truman is just starting to make some headway but he still needs to get rid of a lot of people who are not seeing what is needed for the United States to compete on the world stage.
Truman has already mentioned this, as a result and a few Telegrams between himself and Kat, he's getting to the bottom of this fast, something certain people, USSS agents, will regret very deeply rather soon.
I think the description of the Americans in this as having been written as solely lead paint drinkers is somewhat inaccurate, the situation is that without American involvement in TTL's WWII, there's been no real opportunities to identify the various strains of lead paint drinkers who held the reins during the 30's or the social impetus that America had OTL to dismantle the worst of things like the Jim Crow laws or sexual inequality, (something that by this point OTL had only really taken baby steps by this point, but had been helped by the images coming from Nazi Germany just 10 years previously, or from Soviet Russia around this time).
So for my money, it's not that the US are drinking loads of lead paint, they're just still drinking the same amount as 20 years previously, they've just not stopped yet.
Once PM gets to the natural stage in the story where they do stop, that's where you'll see a closer to OTL USA, and more likely, a more idealised version in the same way that TTL's Germany is more idealised too.
Not exactly the same situation, but security zealousness does lead to incidences with heads of states: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/...-elusive-as-un-guards-scuffle-with-turks.html
I'm not so sure PM is wrong about disarming a foreign agent. I read something that said that even Canada did not let foreign agents remain armed (officially) till the nineties which apparently irked the SS. My middle North American cousins can correct me but isn't Air Force One an embassy or something wherever it goes and considered US soil (so to speak)?
Depends on the situation and what has been agreed beforehand. Unless the Kaiser has already been informed that his bodyguard would be searched for weapons, then it is a no go.
But since they aren’t meeting in either the US or Germany, it is actually the laws of the host country that would be required to be met.
For example in Australia if the US President is coming to visit, the secret service has to apply for permits for any weapons they would like to bring into the country. And those permits can be rejected.
But since they aren’t meeting in either the US or Germany, it is actually the laws of the host country that would be required to be met.
For example in Australia if the US President is coming to visit, the secret service has to apply for permits for any weapons they would like to bring into the country. And those permits can be rejected.
I feel bad about Jack, he is living a life that wasn't of his own making, sure his professional career is going well but he is known as the firm's "Fixer" getting the top clients out of various personal and criminal jams and that is not good thing to known for.
Thru his connections he has brought in a lot of new clients to the firm with Irish companies looking to do business in other countries using the firm to get legal help from other law firms in those countries and international law firms are using his law firm for legal work in Ireland.
His personal life is another matter, he is nearing 40years old and he doesn't have a stable relationship with a woman to show for, his father is probably the richest man in Ireland and is rehabbing the family name with the Kennedy Foundation that is most likely the largest charity in Ireland, his brother Joe is in the Irish Parliament and is rising in the ranks (I am just speculating), his brother Bobby is most likely studying for the Priesthood in Rome, his sister Kick is married to William Cavendish, the Marquees of Hartington and the Heir to Duke of Devonshire (why not let some of the butterflies be ironic).
When Jack looks back on his life and reflects how he got there, his involvement with the ONI, Ian Fleming, his wartime experiences with the Irish Regiment he is not going to fault Kat with any of it and sees her action against him as justifiable in the light of what he knows now about Kat's life, no the one person he holds responsible for all of this is Paul Finley and Jack is just waiting for the right time to strike back.
Thru his connections he has brought in a lot of new clients to the firm with Irish companies looking to do business in other countries using the firm to get legal help from other law firms in those countries and international law firms are using his law firm for legal work in Ireland.
His personal life is another matter, he is nearing 40years old and he doesn't have a stable relationship with a woman to show for, his father is probably the richest man in Ireland and is rehabbing the family name with the Kennedy Foundation that is most likely the largest charity in Ireland, his brother Joe is in the Irish Parliament and is rising in the ranks (I am just speculating), his brother Bobby is most likely studying for the Priesthood in Rome, his sister Kick is married to William Cavendish, the Marquees of Hartington and the Heir to Duke of Devonshire (why not let some of the butterflies be ironic).
When Jack looks back on his life and reflects how he got there, his involvement with the ONI, Ian Fleming, his wartime experiences with the Irish Regiment he is not going to fault Kat with any of it and sees her action against him as justifiable in the light of what he knows now about Kat's life, no the one person he holds responsible for all of this is Paul Finley and Jack is just waiting for the right time to strike back.
So, Finley has an enemy of Kat, of Nancy, of President Truman and JFK...
What's the opposite of a charmed life?
The poop storm awaiting our dear Mr. Finley is all of his own making, starting with trying his little stunt against Kat in Australia.
Nothing to do with bad luck, just stupid choices which compound over time. I hope he sees that this is all on him and nobody else.
Alas Mr Finley’s type never see themselves and their actions as cause and effect. It is always someone else or an outside force/actor.
In the discussion about whether or not Nancy was suspended without pay, Nancy has some protection as a civil servant and she would had been transferred to another government agency unless if it was for national security reasons then Nancy would have been "Suspended Pending Termination" and she would have not been paid.
The fact that Paul went from the ONI to the OSS after the Kat-tasorphe (excuse me while I dry my face after someone just shot me full of seltzer water) in Sydney apparently without missing a beat tells us that Paul made Jack the scapegoat and it was Jack that got the shaft instead of him.
Hopefully Paul will get the well deserved posting in whatever fun place we can think of.
The fact that Paul went from the ONI to the OSS after the Kat-tasorphe (excuse me while I dry my face after someone just shot me full of seltzer water) in Sydney apparently without missing a beat tells us that Paul made Jack the scapegoat and it was Jack that got the shaft instead of him.
Hopefully Paul will get the well deserved posting in whatever fun place we can think of.
"I declaih youah the rudest young man we've yet encountered in this frozen wilderness."
I'll get my coat.