Pride Goes Before a Fall: A Revolutionary Greece Timeline

[RyuDrago]

Seeing we are talking of archeological issues now:

1) how ITTL Greece would likely move towards Britain about the Elgin Marbles?
2) How exactly ITTL Greece will move to develop a proper archeological mindset (also and above all on preservation of her sites towards foreign predators, ahem, archeologists)?

 

[Earl Marshal]

Seeing we are talking of archeological issues now:

1) how ITTL Greece would likely move towards Britain about the Elgin Marbles?
2) How exactly ITTL Greece will move to develop a proper archeological mindset (also and above all on preservation of her sites towards foreign predators, ahem, archeologists)?

1) It will be complicated to say the least. Obviously the Greeks would like them back as they view Elgin's excavation of the Marbles as illegal, but the British Government may not be willing to return them as they purchased them from Elgin in 1816 and have proven to be quite the popular piece in the British Museum. One thing working in Greece's favor ITTL is Lord Byron, he was an avid opponent of Elgin and considered him to be a vandal and a thief among other unkind terms, so his continued survival and popularity will certainly help Greece going forward. Another is the better management of Greece in this timeline. As TTL's Greece has avoided most of the infighting and unrest that plagued them in OTL, the excuse of the British that the Marbles would be better cared for in the British Museum than in Athens has less merit. Finally there is the generally better relations between Greece and Britain in TTL thanks to Leopold's rule as opposed to Otto's which was quite disastrous to British-Greek Relations in OTL.

2) Archaeology will more than likely develop along OTL lines, but my intent is that Greece develops a quicker response to the more harmful practices of archaeologists at this time.

 

[IamtheEmps]

One thing working in Greece's favor ITTL is Lord Byron, he was an avid opponent of Elgin and considered him to be a vandal and a thief

1. The last poor brute securely gnaws the bone.
2. Yet still the gods are just, and crimes are cross’d:
3. See here what Elgin won, and what he lost!
4. Another name with his pollutes my shrine:
5. Behold where Dian’s beams disdain to shine!
6. Some retribution still might Pallas claim,
7. When Venus half avenged Minerva’s shame.”
   
   
   
8. She ceased awhile, and thus I dared reply,
9. To soothe the vengeance kindling in her eye:
10. “Daughter of Jove! in Britain’s injured name,
11. A true-born Briton may the deed disclaim.
12. Frown not on England; England owns him not:
13. Athena, no! thy plunderer was a Scot.

 

[cmakk1012]

Could one catastrophic excavation somewhere lead to drastic measures to improve archaeological practices? I don’t want anything to get that badly screwed up, but it might be worth one ruined temple if all the rest are excavated properly

Also, back to the Byzantine debate. It’s been mentioned that the Phanariotes could boost the Byzantine connection—only problem is that they’re not involved in Greek politics much at all right now. Is there a way to get them involved, possibly through the complex web of politics in Constantinople itself? Maybe the Greeks get involved in an Ottoman succession crisis that didn’t occur IOTL or something. Or maybe a rebellious Phanariote in somewhere like Romania turns to the Greeks for aid...

 

[Earl Marshal]

Could one catastrophic excavation somewhere lead to drastic measures to improve archaeological practices? I don’t want anything to get that badly screwed up, but it might be worth one ruined temple if all the rest are excavated properly

That could certainly work. I guess the only question is which unlucky temple, monument, or palace gets sacrificed in the name of archaeological progress.

Also, back to the Byzantine debate. It’s been mentioned that the Phanariotes could boost the Byzantine connection—only problem is that they’re not involved in Greek politics much at all right now. Is there a way to get them involved, possibly through the complex web of politics in Constantinople itself? Maybe the Greeks get involved in an Ottoman succession crisis that didn’t occur IOTL or something. Or maybe a rebellious Phanariote in somewhere like Romania turns to the Greeks for aid...

There are actually quite a few Phanariotes or Constantinopolitan Greeks in relatively important positions of power in the Greek Government, with the Foreign Minister Iakovos Rizos Neroulos, Justice Minister Leo Melas, Minister of Education Michael Schinas, and his brother the Deputy Justice Minister Konstantinos Schinas being a few noteworthy members. Also Alexandros Mavrokordatos is incredibly prominent in Greek politics at the moment as the leader of the loyal opposition and will more than likely become Prime Minister at some point, although his views are more focused towards the West than the East. There are also numerous Phanariotes in the Legislature and bureaucracy of the Greek Government and they hold relatively important positions in Greek society as merchants, artists, writers, etc.

Despite the pogroms and massacres during the War for Independence, quite a few Phanariot Greeks remained in or returned to Constantinople after the war and managed to secure some level of influence in the Ottoman bureaucracy, but obviously no where close to the degree they had before the revolution. Even still, they remain a relevant group in the city and could definitely play some role in the events to come. There are also a few Phanariotes in Wallachia and Moldovia as well but their influence has been largely curtailed by the increased Russian presence in the region.

 

[cmakk1012]

That could certainly work. I guess the only question is which unlucky temple, monument, or palace gets sacrificed in the name of archaeological progress.

Well, it seems like archaeology hit its stride in places like England and Egypt before Greece—have a catastrophe happen there and keep the Greek stuff safe

There are actually quite a few Phanariotes or Constantinopolitan Greeks in relatively important positions of power in the Greek Government, with the Foreign Minister Iakovos Rizos Neroulos, Justice Minister Leo Melas, Minister of Education Michael Schinas, and his brother the Deputy Justice Minister Konstantinos Schinas being a few noteworthy members. Also Alexandros Mavrokordatos is incredibly prominent in Greek politics at the moment as the leader of the loyal opposition and will more than likely become Prime Minister at some point, although his views are more focused towards the West than the East. There are also numerous Phanariotes in the Legislature and bureaucracy of the Greek Government and they hold relatively important positions in Greek society as merchants, artists, writers, etc.

Despite the pogroms and massacres during the War for Independence, quite a few Phanariot Greeks remained in or returned to Constantinople after the war and managed to secure some level of influence in the Ottoman bureaucracy, but obviously no where close to the degree they had before the revolution. Even still, they remain a relevant group in the city and could definitely play some role in the events to come. There are also a few Phanariotes in Wallachia and Moldovia as well but their influence has been largely curtailed by the increased Russian presence in the region.

Huh, I didn’t realize. Sounds like there is more than enough Phanariote participation in Greece!

What could be different then? More links to the Constantinopolitan Greeks, maybe? There are so many possibilities as to what could happen—the Balkans were so tumultuous in the 19th century!

 

[kaizerfox]

That could certainly work. I guess the only question is which unlucky temple, monument, or palace gets sacrificed in the name of archaeological progress.

Maybe have Schliemann blow up Troy even worse than OTL and accidentally kill himself in the process? That way you kill off Schliemann and the death of an archaeologist forces the community to change its practices, two birds with one stone.

 

[Earl Marshal]

Well, it seems like archaeology hit its stride in places like England and Egypt before Greece—have a catastrophe happen there and keep the Greek stuff safe



Huh, I didn’t realize. Sounds like there is more than enough Phanariote participation in Greece!

What could be different then? More links to the Constantinopolitan Greeks, maybe? There are so many possibilities as to what could happen—the Balkans were so tumultuous in the 19th century!

The Phanariotes made up a small, but incredibly important part of Greek society during its formative years both in OTL and ITTL. Most, if not all of the men mentioned were appointed to various different cabinet posts in OTL so there really isn't a significant change here in terms of the makeup of Greek politics or Greek culture ITTL. The only major differences to the Greek Government in this timeline are Kapodistrias' survival and Leopold's selection as King, but nothing I've read on Kapodistrias has implied that he had strong Byzantophile tendencies. Leopold's selection likely had little effect on the Hellenes/Romans debate as well as Leopold was a Philhellene much like Otto of Bavaria, but probably not to the same degree as Otto considering he didn't speak Greek in OTL and his interest in the country really only extended as far as the London Conference of 1830. More than likely, Greece will follow along the same track as it did in OTL in this regard for the immediate future barring some outside events.

That said, there are certainly opportunities for Greece to do some interesting things in the not too distant future which will have quite the impact on the Balkans and this very debate.

Maybe have Schliemann blow up Troy even worse than OTL and accidentally kill himself in the process? That way you kill off Schliemann and the death of an archaeologist forces the community to change its practices, two birds with one stone.

That is certainly one possibility, but then we would lose Troy.

 

[cmakk1012]

The Phanariotes made up a small, but incredibly important part of Greek society during its formative years both in OTL and ITTL. Most, if not all of the men mentioned were appointed to various different cabinet posts in OTL so there really isn't a significant change here in terms of the makeup of Greek politics or Greek culture ITTL. The only major differences to the Greek Government in this timeline are Kapodistrias' survival and Leopold's selection as King, but nothing I've read on Kapodistrias has implied that he had strong Byzantophile tendencies. Leopold's selection likely had little effect on the Hellenes/Romans debate as well as Leopold was a Philhellene much like Otto of Bavaria, but probably not to the same degree as Otto considering he didn't speak Greek in OTL and his interest in the country really only extended as far as the London Conference of 1830. More than likely, Greece will follow along the same track as it did in OTL in this regard for the immediate future barring some outside events.

That said, there are certainly opportunities for Greece to do some interesting things in the not too distant future which will have quite the impact on the Balkans and this very debate.

Yeah, I guess things really aren’t that different to OTL politically. Kapodistrias seems to have helped make a lot of things go better, though!

Honestly, the Greeks achieved tremendous expansion IOTL. Considering how well they’re doing ITTL the sky’s the limit. I don’t even think they need a Roman ideology yet—just OTL’s Megali Plan combined with a superior nation and military to OTL would be good enough. They can go all in on the Roman Empire ideologically once they conquer traditionally Roman lands, yes?

 

[Earl Marshal]

Yeah, I guess things really aren’t that different to OTL politically. Kapodistrias seems to have helped make a lot of things go better, though!

Honestly, the Greeks achieved tremendous expansion IOTL. Considering how well they’re doing ITTL the sky’s the limit. I don’t even think they need a Roman ideology yet—just OTL’s Megali Plan combined with a superior nation and military to OTL would be good enough. They can go all in on the Roman Empire ideologically once they conquer traditionally Roman lands, yes?

Kapodistrias definitely helped Greece immensely ITTL and many of the achievements they will reach ITTL will be because of the groundwork he established. He was a proponent of education, industrialization, modernization, and land reform. He was beloved by the common people and respected by the crown heads of Europe. He was such a capable statesman that I'm confident he would have saved Otto from making some of the more foolish decisions he made in OTL had he lived despite Otto's many faults. Obviously there are some limits to Greece's potential ITTL by the very nature of the times they live in, but generally they are a lot better off than they were in OTL.

 

[Lascaris]

Kapodistrias definitely helped Greece immensely ITTL and many of the achievements they will reach ITTL will be because of the groundwork he established. He was a proponent of education, industrialization, modernization, and land reform. He was beloved by the common people and respected by the crown heads of Europe. He was such a capable statesman that I'm confident he would have saved Otto from making some of the more foolish decisions he made in OTL had he lived despite Otto's many faults. Obviously there are some limits to Greece's potential ITTL by the very nature of the times they live in, but generally they are a lot better off than they were in OTL.

You could say I think that it's more a matter of scale. The TTL Greece has two major advantages compared to OTL. First the Kapodistrias-Leopold combo but perhaps just as importantly it's control of Crete, Samos and Chios that provides very muc needed resources the OTL state lacked. Everything else stems from there, whether it is a larger navy or eduation levels being ahead of OTL.

 

[Earl Marshal]

You could say I think that it's more a matter of scale. The TTL Greece has two major advantages compared to OTL. First the Kapodistrias-Leopold combo but perhaps just as importantly it's control of Crete, Samos and Chios that provides very muc needed resources the OTL state lacked. Everything else stems from there, whether it is a larger navy or eduation levels being ahead of OTL.

I certainly agree that the additional territory will provide just as big a benefit in the long run as Kapodistrias and Leopold, if not more. Crete, Chios, and Samos, along with Preveza, Arta, Domokos, and Almyros provide TTL's Greece with a noticeable bump in population, taxes, trade, and raw resources, all of which will help the country develop much earlier than OTL.

 

[Flavius Phocas]

I certainly agree that the additional territory will provide just as big a benefit in the long run as Kapodistrias and Leopold, if not more. Crete, Chios, and Samos, along with Preveza, Arta, Domokos, and Almyros provide TTL's Greece with a noticeable bump in population, taxes, trade, and raw resources, all of which will help the country develop much earlier than OTL.

Not to mention that it will allow Greece to concentrate on grabbing more mainland territory if any Balkan Wars like scenario happens in this timeline. They managed to take Macedonia in our timeline while getting bogged down in the Aegean, I can't imagine how far they'll be able to push here.

 

[victor vazquez]

Maybe they'll even manage to get constanople at the end of ww1 instead of the Easter Anatolian coast and have a population exchange with turkey to have a Greek majority instanbul.

 

[Christos]

Maybe they'll even manage to get constanople at the end of ww1 instead of the Easter Anatolian coast and have a population exchange with turkey to have a Greek majority instanbul.

Only if they lose a similar war to the greco-turkish war of otl will greece agree to a population exchange of the anatolian greeks that have lived there for thousands of years, anything other than that it's unlikely to happen

 

[cmakk1012]

Only if they lose a similar war to the greco-turkish war of otl will greece agree to a population exchange of the anatolian greeks that have lived there for thousands of years, anything other than that it's unlikely to happen

Problem here is how do you avoid the Greek genocide in the Ottoman Empire? That was ongoing in Anatolia before the exchanges—I guess you’d want to get rid of the Young Turks altogether

 

[Unknown]

Yeah, Leopold's gonna be a much better king than Otto was (it helps that he's Queen Victoria's uncle and he has connections to British society; it also helps that he's less willing to alienate the Great Powers than Otto was)…

 

[Unknown]

Don't worry I have something in store for Mr. Schliemann.

Also for the record, I'm intentionally staying quiet on the Byzantine/Greek discussion for the time being while I research it further. I will say that while things can certainly change and probably will change, especially if a certain city comes into play, TTL's Greece will generally be the same as OTL's Greece with a little added Byzantine and Phanariot flavor and imagery.

Greek official to Mr. Schliemann's (ex) wife: Oh, my condolences on your husband's tragic death. Yes, it's a shame that that piece of the Acropolis just happened to topple over in the wind and hit him in the head; we sometimes get these kinds of winds, you know, the climate and all that.

 

[emperor joe]

Greek official to Mr. Schliemann's (ex) wife: Oh, my condolences on your husband's tragic death. Yes, it's a shame that that piece of the Acropolis just happened to topple over in the wind and hit him in the head; we sometimes get these kinds of winds, you know, the climate and all that.

Maybe he could just fall from the acropolis and be done with him.....

 

[Lascaris]

Problem here is how do you avoid the Greek genocide in the Ottoman Empire? That was ongoing in Anatolia before the exchanges—I guess you’d want to get rid of the Young Turks altogether

Lets just remind everyone that we are still in 1840 and there have been notable changes in Western Europe as well. It's too early to be thinking about ww1 when we don't even know how the Crimean war is going to turn out or what happens to the 1848 revolutions which are after all much closer. We haven't heard yet from Napoleon II for example...