Popular misconceptions about pre-modern History

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Just an example of this is the fairly popular association of the word "byzantine" with overly bureacratic complex systems that are hard to make progress within, E.G those tax regulations are byzantine.

Meanwhile, the Byzantine Empire was under-administrated just like every other pre-modern country (though its administration was certainly more effective than the weak central authority of the European Early Middle Ages).

Only since Absolutism, and really starting with the industrial Revolution, was the bureaucracy able to control every single aspect of public and private life.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
@Skallagrim and @Escape Zeppelin

Maybe it's a cultural thing then?

(snip)

Possibly. It sounds rather like you ran into some very poor teachers. I can't blame the students who don't know a lot about it (as there are many other subjects I know little about), but I'd expect better from teachers.

I can tell you that any philosophy professor who describes East Asian traditions as "really shit philosophy" must have gotten his credentials from the bottom of a box of breakfast cereal.
 
People wore nothing but dirty fur and dark leather

Related: medieval Europeans mostly wore drab, dark colours. Most clothes of common people would likely have been in somewhat pastel tones (dyed with madder, woad, etc., and then bleached by the sun). Dark greens, browns, blues, and blacks would have been a sign of wealth, as making deep-hued colours was harder and more prestigious than making bright (but not terribly durable) ones.
 
Possibly. It sounds rather like you ran into some very poor teachers. I can't blame the students who don't know a lot about it (as there are many other subjects I know little about), but I'd expect better from teachers.

I can tell you that any philosophy professor who describes East Asian traditions as "really shit philosophy" must have gotten his credentials from the bottom of a box of breakfast cereal.
He was trained at Oxford :/
 
Something that bothers me a lot in media:

Medieval/Ancient Warriors that could not afford or produce metal armor would use leather [the black modern type of leather by the way].

[facepalm] Usually movies and series go as far as making armies that look more like motorcycle gangs or "Judas Priest" fans than ancient armies, gambesons are simply unknown by the general audiences.
 
That people from pre modern cultures were all noble savages without knowing greed, want warfare and all that jazz
I think that mostly counts for people from North America (not including Central America), the Pacific Islands, and maaaaybe parts of Africa.

Also, remember the movie Disney's Pocohantas? Apparently it wasn't based on a situation in which a native tribe kidnaped governor John Smith without provocation. And I never understood why the beginning of the movie shows so much calm and peace from people returning form war, without actually telling what it was about. Also, Ratcliffe... apparently, if records are to be believed, when his group was starving he was captured when negotiating for food (or that was what the tribe said) and had his skin pulled off by clam shells used as heated tongs. Not sure if it was true or not, since it seems somewhat sensationalist, but it is like the movie just looked for someone with an unpleasant sounding name.
 
Related: medieval Europeans mostly wore drab, dark colours. Most clothes of common people would likely have been in somewhat pastel tones (dyed with madder, woad, etc., and then bleached by the sun). Dark greens, browns, blues, and blacks would have been a sign of wealth, as making deep-hued colours was harder and more prestigious than making bright (but not terribly durable) ones.
The idea that people in the middle ages primarily wore dark and drab colours is likely rooted in the fact that only clothes of wealthy people did survive, either materially or in portraits, and because historicizing painters in the Victorian era were either copying those late medieval portraits or simply applying their Victorian tastes for dark and drab colours anachronistically to earlier periods, with those potrayals heavily influencing later depictions in other media, such as Lawrence Alma-Tadema and Edmund Blair Leighton, whose pictures are responsible for our idea of red clad Roman legionaries, later gratefully picked up by Hollywood and still too alive even among such renowned reenactment societies as the Ermine Street Guard.

A good example how deeply rooted such preconceptions are is a story a fellow reenactor once told me. His reenacment society, specialised in portraying germanic tribes, was hired by a TV documentary production of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest to portray Arminius and his men. Upon arriving on the set in their archeologically well researched period clothes the art director's comment upon seeing them was "Hm ... somehow those Germans don't look right, far too clean, not wearing enough furs and, oh, we have to get them some winged helmets." They of course rejected his proposal and threatened to walk out if he insisted to turn them into Orcs.

Of course the fact that the gothic scene has penetrated the renaissance fair scene to a good degree doesn't really help in this regard either. A Viking era reenactor told me of his disappointment with the costumes of the TV series Vikings "The women's clothes might be largely correct, but their depiction of Viking warriors reminded me more of the love child of a biker and a leather fetishist than anything real Vikings would have ever worn."

Something that bothers me a lot in media:

Medieval/Ancient Warriors that could not afford or produce metal armor would use leather [the black modern type of leather by the way].

[facepalm] Usually movies and series go as far as making armies that look more like motorcycle gangs or "Judas Priest" fans than ancient armies, gambesons are simply unknown by the general audiences.
You are not alone, I and many other serious reenactors are here with you.
 
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed that the TV/movie industry for period pieces has been taken over by leather fetishists, or at least hires them exclusively for their costuming departments. Leather isn't good for armor, and it especially isn't good clothing material for anything but shoes, belts, and maybe coats if you can make it look nice which they rarely ever do. Nobody in the past would've worn those weird leather wristbands you see in 99% of anything taking place in ancient Rome or thereabouts that have no apparent purpose at all, and they especially would not have worn leather pants, and "barbarians" didn't prefer to go around shirtless save for a leather vest. I swear, the costumers probably never try on their own costumes.

And as for Vikings, the best comparison I've seen is that the men (and occasional shieldmaidens) look like LARPers pretending to be in Skyrim more than anything else, at least when they're not literally reusing props and costumes from Game of Thrones.
 
And as for Vikings, the best comparison I've seen is that the men (and occasional shieldmaidens) look like LARPers pretending to be in Skyrim more than anything else, at least when they're not literally reusing props and costumes from Game of Thrones.
Do they just look like it, or did they snag them away before collectors got them? I did a quick scan of Google and, while not noticing anything about the literal props being used, it seems a company in India produces masses of stuff for medieval flavored movies and shows.
 

Toraach

Banned
Middle Ages as a period of stupidity, dirt, ugliness, darkness, and whatever other stereotypes are about this period. When in reality that was a period of great achievements, development, progress, and expansion of the european civilization on great areas in the East and North.
 
Do they just look like it, or did they snag them away before collectors got them? I did a quick scan of Google and, while not noticing anything about the literal props being used, it seems a company in India produces masses of stuff for medieval flavored movies and shows.
I don't know for sure, but even if they were simply using props from the same company they certainly didn't request something a bit more authentic to the time period since they have Anglo-Saxons wearing 16th Century helmets identical to what Game of Thrones has many Baratheon soldiers wearing, as well as a strange allergy to mail armor, and some of the brigandines (which are also inappropriate to the period) looked suspiciously Dornish.
 
I was thinking about the K'iche, actually, but your point stands as well.

It would be more appropriate to compare the Maya with the Ancient Greeks - city states, shifting alliances, love of maths etc.



Burying dead cats into the walls of their houses, hiding shoes, crazy-arse cures, etc.

People weren't stupid, but they sure were superstitious.
For them it was like science
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed that the TV/movie industry for period pieces has been taken over by leather fetishists, or at least hires them exclusively for their costuming departments. Leather isn't good for armor, and it especially isn't good clothing material for anything but shoes, belts, and maybe coats if you can make it look nice which they rarely ever do. Nobody in the past would've worn those weird leather wristbands you see in 99% of anything taking place in ancient Rome or thereabouts that have no apparent purpose at all, and they especially would not have worn leather pants, and "barbarians" didn't prefer to go around shirtless save for a leather vest. I swear, the costumers probably never try on their own costumes.

And as for Vikings, the best comparison I've seen is that the men (and occasional shieldmaidens) look like LARPers pretending to be in Skyrim more than anything else, at least when they're not literally reusing props and costumes from Game of Thrones.
It gets even more annoying when those same blatant costuming errors occur in documentaries, when e.g. the very romanised leader of the Batavi revolt Gaius Iulius Civilis (a man who even claimed to be descended from an illegitimate son Gaius Iulius Caesar had fathered during his campeign in the region) is potrayed as a shaggy bearded barbarian, clad in equally shaggy furs.
 
Okay maybe it is just that I hang around a lot of online history communities but I swear these 'misconceptions' are things people always say are misconceptions and yet I never see anyone actually make. Like I swear I have never seen anyone on this site or anywhere else say that the Byzantines were a degenerate rump of an empire as one guy said. I mean I don't doubt that there are people who have made these misconceptions but I don't know, I don't recall ever having seen anyone actually make any of these misconceptions. I have, however, seen a lot of people say that they're common misconceptions, I just never see them anywhere. Again, maybe it is just the communities I hang around with?
Actually that is a misconception a lot of people in my country have. That the christian europens were primitive savages Which brings me to the next misconception: europeans were all evil & had nothing better to do than to persecute jews all year round
 
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It gets even more annoying when those same blatant costuming errors occur in documentaries, when e.g. the very romanised leader of the Batavi revolt Gaius Iulius Civilis (a man who even claimed to be descended from an illegitimate son Gaius Iulius Caesar had fathered during his campeign in the region) is potrayed as a shaggy bearded barbarian, clad in equally shaggy furs.
Just like how 95% of sci-fi/fantasy authors can't be trusted around apostrophes, I've come to the conclusion that 95% of costumers shouldn't be allowed near any sort of animal products. Too often are furs just things to drape over big scary men to show that they are barbarians and therefore primitives, regardless of whether that scrap of fur would stay where it's being worn or even if it would keep the wearer warm which is the whole point.
Actually that is a misconception a lot of people in my country have. That the christian europens were primitive savages Which brings me to the next misconception: europeans were all evil & had nothing better to do than to atack jews
Speaking of Christians, there's a relatively recent trend of romanticizing European pagans, generally at the cost of demonizing medieval Christians. This is especially apparent with people's attitudes towards vikings, who are very often romanticized and given an air of nobility, and all their raiding and pillaging is summed up as "wow, they were so cool and badass!" No mention of how they drove a massive slave economy that only subsided with Christianization. Stranger still, given their predilection of thinking that "viking" conquests are awesome and not catastrophic, they ignore that the most successful and powerful Norse kings of the period were Christians. Canute the Great and Harald Hardrada (why is his name never translated as Hardrede, it is the appropriate English translation) would laugh at Vikings' Ragnar Lodbrok if they somehow met and Ragnar presumed to boast, and probably also mock his shitty clothes as well as his faith.
 
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