I Think Germany would want Gibraltar, Malta and Egypt/Sudan for Italy. Free up the Italian navy and makes the Empire vulnerable if they should get second thoughts.
Also, German Italian relations are good. Mussolini played his part.
The Kriegsmarine implements a first strike doctrine
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Also, German Italian relations are good. Mussolini played his part.
Gibraltar is a non-starter to be sure, as is Egypt, since that would endanger the Suez. Malta for Italy seems excessive, especially if all Italy did was broker the peace. Maybe a demilitarization of Malta?
A thought, perhaps all debt held by the UK could be forgiven as part of the treaty with the UK
Yes, the problem is that Britain has nothing Germany wants. Except power. 2 more years and Britain has carriers, fast battleships and well defended bases. What Can Germany get to make sure they wont come back?
https://www.google.dk/amp/s/www.exp...nston-Churchill-waver-in-our-darkest-hour/amp
This was the right quote. Look what Churchill would “jump at”.
Churchill is out.
trajen777
Banned
The French:
1. will lose BL and AL.
2. They will lose some colonies to Italy (thru Germany)
3. Agree to be part of the Middle Europa economy and Be an ally of Germany in future wars (ie USSR -- providing xxx troops and production of transport trucks etc. They were the 2nd largest Tank producer pre war.
4. Madagascar to move the Jews out of Germany
GB
1. Cash and xxx amount of support Trucks
2. SA and Iraq as well as port facilities (Lebanon) -- Germany controls a large portion of Oil (THIS IS A MUST)
3. Agreement not to become involved in a war for xxx years vs Germany
4. Reduction of forces in Middle east to 1 light infantry division and police force
5. Independent India ?? not sure here
6. XXX number of tankers
7 Cyprus (becomes the military base for air defense for Germany middle east
8. Malta to Italy (or at least tear up airfields and military bases, as well as port facilities
Germany would push Turkey for pipeline deal.
I think GB would live with this and negotiate more troops in middle east esp Egypt. India no. And be ok with most of the rest. It leaves them wiht the far east, Africa, most of the middle east.
1. will lose BL and AL.
2. They will lose some colonies to Italy (thru Germany)
3. Agree to be part of the Middle Europa economy and Be an ally of Germany in future wars (ie USSR -- providing xxx troops and production of transport trucks etc. They were the 2nd largest Tank producer pre war.
4. Madagascar to move the Jews out of Germany
GB
1. Cash and xxx amount of support Trucks
2. SA and Iraq as well as port facilities (Lebanon) -- Germany controls a large portion of Oil (THIS IS A MUST)
3. Agreement not to become involved in a war for xxx years vs Germany
4. Reduction of forces in Middle east to 1 light infantry division and police force
5. Independent India ?? not sure here
6. XXX number of tankers
7 Cyprus (becomes the military base for air defense for Germany middle east
8. Malta to Italy (or at least tear up airfields and military bases, as well as port facilities
Germany would push Turkey for pipeline deal.
I think GB would live with this and negotiate more troops in middle east esp Egypt. India no. And be ok with most of the rest. It leaves them wiht the far east, Africa, most of the middle east.
Agree on France. Trade agreements I didn't think of. Per military ally, I think they'd be preferred as logistical support. No need for them to be armed
For the UK
1. An interesting idea. I'd see Germany more being interested in the cash, better to get standard Adam Opel trucks, rather than British designs that then need British parts .
2. Germany can request, but no way will the UK agree to this. What they might get the UK to agree to is to sell oil to Germany at a token price, up to a certain amount for a certain period.
3. Agree
4. This would certainly be worth a try. The UK would probably be willing to talk about this, though one division is a little on the light side.
5. I can't see Germany requesting this.
6. Probably not, Germany just acquired a large merchant fleet. Maybe they need some tankers, but they'll probably want indigenous designs. Probably fast tankers, so they can be fleet replenishment.
7. Worth a try, and the UK might agree
8. Malta demilitarized. I don't see it getting ceded to Italy.
Regardless, I expect the UK to arm up, and prepare for round two, probably doing their best to beg or bully the UK into an alliance
trajen777
Banned
With the situation gb is in I think the Iraq or SA is a must for the deal. In ww2 the 42 operation was all about cutting off the oil in Russia. So I think this would be a must. Perhaps only one of the two with Iraq better for Germany vs SA to far south. I don't see the tankers as a need for german fleet action more to transport oil for invasion of ussr. The gb tankers are for a short term need for oil for 41 or 42
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You also forgot to include terms for Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa as well.
Saudi-arabia is not important at this time. Its Iraq and Persia.
I could see Hitler going for Gibraltar and Dakar with Malta (demilitarized only perhaps), Egypt, Sudan and Iraq for Italy. French participation in Germany dominated economic bloc (without AL, BL and the unfinished battleships perhaps), reparations for Britain, possibly cash only. Leaves the Empire but preserve the German advantages which they would not give up.
How does that sound?
Grand Admiral Thrawn
Donor
Germany will have to get it from the British, that is a red line. Losing the Suez Canal is impossible for the UK to accept. Hitler would have to be in Buckingham Palace to dictate such outlandish terms. Far more realistic is heavy reparations from France, A-L are German, France can have a larger military than German was allowed under Versailles (to show how magnanimous Hitler is) but most of it has to be outside of France. Maginot Line destroyed, to be followed "at a future time" by the Siegfried Line. Germany will withdraw from the Channel Ports (another British red line).
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
OK, as you've said, most of the breaks go the German way, but this is an imaginative use of force multipliers to offset the British supremacy in conventional naval classes. Seriously this was the only way Germany could seek to best the Royal Navy, even on temporary terms. I had flagged up an idea a while back about the German's copying the Japanese long-range torpedo bombers but you've gone for a more home-grown solution.
On a general point, Corelli Barnett in "Engage the Enemy More Closely" posited that the Empire, far from being a source of strength, was in fact a source of weakness, with multiple points requiring defence resulting in severe strategic overstretch. You can see this again IITL where the losses the RN suffers encourage would leave the Med pretty much free for Mussolini to construct his new empire, and with nothing left over for the Far East. Just a little investment in the humble torpedo and (relatively) cheap aircraft can bring huge returns.
This is a quite important statement. Britain cannot defend the Empire at this time ITTL. Britain is at the mercy of the luftwaffe, have an at least imagined fear of invasion, and they cannot also defend the med, not to speak of the far east.
The British cannot expect lenient terms. Maybe not Egypt but at least Malta, Cypeus and Gibraltar is needed to balance future power.. and a free hand in Greece.
Unfortunately though, the war will have to continue given that Germany hasn't defeated the other WAllies (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa) yet.
Grand Admiral Thrawn
Donor
And OTLhey sacrificed the Far East to protect the rest of the Empire. How far did the Germans ever make it into Egypt? Not very. They had all that OTL, but you ignore that Hitler has shown to be untrustworthy, and every time the Allies tried to buy him off he used to to get more advantages and cheat. Better to fight now. May I suggest moving it to the Writer's Forum if you actually go with Germany or her allies getting Cyprus, Gibraltar, or Malta, all very important naval bases? Might as well ask for Scapa Flow, for all the good it would do.
trajen777
Banned
I like the French points however i would think he would want Persia and Iraq plus Cyprus (to protect tankers) and Lebanon (port to ship oil). From their you could go and offload the oil in the Black sea. Malta would also have to go to Italy (less important with out WW2 on how it impacted Italian shipping).
I have to agree with this. The best of that list would be a disarming of Malta. Gibraltar, Egypt and the Middle East are not anything that the UK is going to trade away. Not that Hitler was really known for being reasonable, but right now the price of peace is at an all time low. Best not to antagonize the UK too much, because they always have the option of pulling back to their island until their new fleet is ready. ships can be towed elsewhere to fit out, and with Chain Home, raids are going to get costly soon. The UK can use the "Home Fleet" (Such as it is) as a heavy escort, if Bismarck, Scharnhorst, and Gneisenau are going to be running around the Atlantic.
trajen777
Banned
The middle east (for the most part was gained recently) so i think Iraq would (and free hand in Persia ) would have been accepted
Maybe some parts of the middle east, but not where petroleum deposits are known to be. Remember, that is the life blood of the Empire, no way they give that up. I believe at this time what would become Saudi Arabia wasn't known to have large deposits, so they might give it away, thinking they are giving away useless desert.
trajen777
Banned
However if you split the Iraq part from the Saudi part (and rest ) or leave Iran in GB control -- you have something workable -- Hitler will want 2 things
1. A way to attack the Russian oil from the south
2. Enough oil for mech warfare
Good points. For point 2, my thought about a contract in the treaty for oil for a time applies. It should also be something that the UK is willing to trade. The treaty could also include rights of passage for logistics.