A More Realistic Sealion Outcome

All the Sealion threads have been most entertaining. We all know the plan was doomed to fail but there are those who want to believe it's got a real chance...

Let's try this the other way. Hitler orders Sealion, and it fails miserably. Large numbers of troops drowned, a number of warships sunk and the Luftwaffe takes a beating. What next? Do plans for Barbarosa continue? Does Hitler still bail out Mussolini in Greece? Does Rommel still head to North Africa? Will Hitler dare to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor?

I'd like to hear your opinion...:)
 
no, Stalin was supirsed that hitler attacked when he did, Stalin was sure he was going to wait until the non agression pact expired

Some Russian historians are still convinced that Stalin was planning to attack the Germans first. Which could explain some of Germanies early successes, the Soviets were not in defensive positions.

Regards,

Rhysz
 

Markus

Banned
One Airborne division is lost, one Air Mobile Division might be lost if paras capture and airfield and it can be kept operational for some time. Up to four infantry divison might be lost, too. Assuming the worst and based on the May 1st 1940 strength, the Wehrmacht will thus be down to 121 divisions, including all armoured and motorized ones.
 
Some Russian historians are still convinced that Stalin was planning to attack the Germans first. Which could explain some of Germanies early successes, the Soviets were not in defensive positions.

Regards,

Rhysz

Not really, the Soviets had no capacity for conducting offensive or defensive operations due to the Purges. Any offensive would have to wait until Summer 1942, when the Red Army was projected to be in much better shape.
 
Some Russian historians are still convinced that Stalin was planning to attack the Germans first. Which could explain some of Germanies early successes, the Soviets were not in defensive positions.

Regards,

Rhysz

ah yes, Suvorov's Icebreaker hypothesis. This has been extensively disproven. Over half of all Soviet tanks required major maintenence on June 22, 1941, artillery batteries were not co-located with their transport assets, rendering them immobile, and aircraft were lined up in rows on airfields, not dispersed for combat missions. None of this would have been the case if the Soviets had been planning a major offensive in less than two weeks.
 
Well, if you are one of those that think that Reader's Med strategy was a winning card for the Reich, you might have it in this scenario for the price of two-four divisions and a lot of barges (Hitler might be convinced in order to punish the british). Also have in mind that the british would loose a lot of ships which are vital for keeping open sea lanes and convoys. A failed Sealion might result in a worst TL for the british. What would happen in the east is anyone's guess. IMHO, the soviets would not fare much better than in OTL in the first stages, their early defeats were more a matter of coordination and lack of tactical manouver skills.
 

Vault-Scope

Banned
Some Russian historians are still convinced that Stalin was planning to attack the Germans first. Which could explain some of Germanies early successes, the Soviets were not in defensive positions.

Regards,

Rhysz


Yes, they had maps of German territories but no map of soviet territories. All red army forces where concentrated along the border and SU had at the time 24000 tanks.

Of course, it is all blamed on the purges, which importance has been much inflated over the years...
 
Yes, they had maps of German territories but no map of soviet territories. All red army forces where concentrated along the border and SU had at the time 24000 tanks.

Of course, it is all blamed on the purges, which importance has been much inflated over the years...

The Purge was not important? I beg to differ. So many generals and other high-ranking officers lost, the commisars making military decisions. Zukhov was lucky to be posted to Sibera, otherwise I could see him going as well.

The Purges (which were started after Hitler had Gobbels plant false information that the army was going to overthrow Stalin) all but wrecked the army. If they hadn't happened I think the army would have convinced Stalin that an invasion was immement and something needed to be done.
 
"Tens of thousands of Soviet tanks", were 99% obsolete tanketes that proved to be just target practice for Wermaht.
 
The Soviets always planned for an offensive defence - the Red Army was geared for offensive operations and in case of a German attack, they believed they would counter-attack and move the war into Poland and perhaps even Germany proper to fight there, to spare the infrastructure, agriculture and industry of western Russia, Ukraine and Byelorussia. This does not mean that they were planning to attack themselves.

The Russian tanks were not target practise for the Germans, the T-26, T-28, BT-7 and T-60 were equal or better to a Pz II - the Germans planned for a war summer 1941 and had replaced the Pz IIs with Pz III and Pz IV by june 1941. The Soviets were still in the process of replacing their T-26 and BT-7 with T-34 and the T-28 was already replaced by the KV-1 (although they were pressed into duty in the emergency that arose anyway).

The Soviets were to have upgraded their tank fleet by summer 1942. Likewise, their artillery, most of being ww1 vintage and not suited for motorised towing, was being replaced by new 76,2mm F-22 guns, 122mm M-30 howitzers, 122mm A-19 guns, 152mm M-10 howitzers and 152mm ML-20 guns, all top-modern excellent tube artillery pieces.

By summer 1942 the Red Army would have a modern tank fleet, modern artillery park, would have had more training, good reserves with good training, better organisation (remedied most of the purges) and better logistical organisation. That would be when Stalin would have attacked, not summer 1941.
 
ah yes, Suvorov's Icebreaker hypothesis. This has been extensively disproven. Over half of all Soviet tanks required major maintenence on June 22, 1941, artillery batteries were not co-located with their transport assets, rendering them immobile, and aircraft were lined up in rows on airfields, not dispersed for combat missions. None of this would have been the case if the Soviets had been planning a major offensive in less than two weeks.

I'm not disputing your point, but could you let me know where you found this information? Just the book name or article would be great, I'm not asking for page references.

It would be really handy for a discussion I'm having off-forum.
 
Yes, the 'plan' was for the Soviets to take the offensive in 1942. However the timescale was changed because Stalin got 'spooked' by the Hess mission to Britain.
No matter what Britain said, it doesn't mean Stalin would believe, he couldn't contemplate Germany & Britain coming to some sort of understanding, hence it became then a race (though neither side knew it was one). The Russians started trawling the Gulags to see who would man and command the Penal Battlions.
But sorry, I can't quote a source - browsing in a library!

To return to the 'thread' - to a large extent the ramifications of a German failed Sealion, depend on when it failed! And therefore what percentage of the invasion force were therefore unavailable for later operations.

Either way, I would have thought the position of Goering was vulnerable.

German assistance to the Italians in North Africa could happen earlier, perhaps a paratroop landing on Malta well before Crete!?
 

Redbeard

Banned
Germany launch Sealion, but knowning this is all or nothing, the British throw everything they have got at the invaders. A couple of German Divisions are rushed across and ínitially make good progress, but soon seabattles with a ferocity not seen yet in world history rage in the Channel. Historians afterwards estimate that forces equivalent to three Divisions were lost on vessels trying to cross the Channel.

Almost the entire KM surface fleet and a large part of the U-boats so far in service are lost too, but at a horrendous cost in the RN. The Home Fleet, which already had drawn in most of the RN forces from other stations, is practically anihilated with 2/3 of its ships sunk or beyond repair and the most of the rest needing long time in dock.

Especially the minefields and the connected U-boat ambushes took a hard toll on the RN, the worst blow being the brand new battleship King George V, which first was immobilised by a mine, and next took five torpedohits on backboard side from a U-boat - and sank (the U-boat didn't survive for many minutes, but that was a poor comfort). The biggest problem was destroyers however, they had achieved splendid results in the crossing zone, there wasn't a German invasion fleet any longer, but the RN only had a handful of operational destoyers in British waters by October 1940.

The couple of German Divisions that had reached the British shores, after some very hard battles finally were overwhelmed, and all over GB churchbells rang in joy as the Cabinet met in London. The PM started the meeting with great pathos when describing the heroic deeds performed in the last weeks, but soon went into gloomy moode when he concluded that the losses in especially the RN had been so big, that the British at the moment were incapable of defending the Empire A lot of new builds of course were on the way, but so were a great number of German U-boats and new powerful battleships. In the Med. the Italian navy already was superior in both numbers and quality, and if the Japanese decided to have a go in the Far East, nothing really would be available to stop them. Pres. Roosevelt had indicated support in case of Japanese aggression, but the PM doubted that USA would sacrifice blood for saving the Empire.

If staying in the war GB would be in serious risk of both being cut off from imports and loosing the Empire.

"As a consequence..." the PM ended his speech " ...I ask the cabinet for support in approaching Germany and Italy for a peace agreement.

Meanwhile in Berlin the Führer at a staff conference stated that the losses taken in the Channel and on the British Isles (5 Divisions and most of the KM surface fleet) were to be considered eggs in the grand omelet he was baking: "The role of the British people in world history is to maintain their Empire - they can not do that if staying at war with Germany. I expect them to approach me any time, asking for peace. I intend to grant them that on very favourable terms, as that will leave us with both someone to bully the savages and a free back for our primary mission - the extension of Lebensraum into the East! When that job is done, we can always evaluate how the British have performed their role, and do the necessary adjustments".

OK I know this need a certain combination of cynicality and realistic judgement by Hitler, and that especially the later is not that likely - but perhaps the clever German chemical industry has come up with a little pill...

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Yes, I'm sure you could have a situation where the RN is badly effected with loss of ships etc.
But it is just as feasible, perhaps moreso, that major RN warships weren't needed.
In early September the Germans believed RAF fighter strength was evaporating fast - thus it only needed a short period of RAF inaction for this to be confirmed. And if the RAF had not mined the Dortmund-Ems canal, more barges could have been available - I believe the Invasion date was postponed, by two weeks, as a result.
Hence, when the invasion fleet set 'sail' on the elongated crossing - dominated by the channel currents - anything above a flat sea state, would put it under pressure. Where tugs are pulling a group of unpowered barges full of troops and/or equipment - what happens when one barge is swamped!
It's just as likely that some troops make - perhaps secure Worthing, make use of Brighton pier via ships. But the majority of the barge traffic is either sunk by destroyers or end up washed ashore in Spain!
 
Redbeard

The RN would probably suffer heavy losses in a the defeat of a Sealion invasion. However this would be virtually all cruisers and destroyers and the like. The Germans had nothing heavier available and also such units are the best for destroying German cross-channel shipping and supplies. Furthermore the Germans would see the destruction of the bulk of the remainder of their surface navy, which would greatly reduce the threat of raids by such units.

Things could well be very tight for a while in the N Atlantic. However if the Germans don't win there quickly the RN could rely on much more new equipment more quickly than Germany. Unless Hitler has a personality transplant and forgets Barbarossa - and this isn't the ASB forum :) - Germany can't complete at sea, even with control of much of Europe.

Furthermore such a programme pre-supposes much heavier air losses for the Germans as they desperately seek to support the invasion. Also for the RAF but it has higher production and isn't going to see the same high demands as the Luftwaffe will suffer in the east. To rebuild this in time will require resources that Germany can't spare. As such I could see a slower German U boat programme.

Steve
 
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