What would the world like like today if their was no islam? Say Mohammad either converted to a form of Christianity or died before his conversion.
Arch-Angel said:What would the world like like today if their was no islam? Say Mohammad either converted to a form of Christianity or died before his conversion.
Arch-Angel said:My current ideas:
-Kingdom of Jerusalem?
-Rather than second songs of nobles going to the middle east they flock to North America when its discovered?
-slower tech development/slower exploration?
-larger nations in the middle east under some form of Christianity?
David S Poepoe said:What would be the possibility that Zoroastrianism, and other such religions, would survive to rival Christianity?
Croesus said:I think we're assuming too much about the association between Islam and militant Arabism. You can take Islam away from the Arab, give him Christianity and still have him explode onto the world stage with similar results. It is possible to argue that the 7th-8th C irruption was as much a coming of age for the Arab 'nation' as it was an Islamic conquest of a spiritually bankrupt infidel world.
Furthermore, you could argue that it is more a case of Omar having his date with destiny than Mohammed. If you hold that greatness will not be denied, then Omars construction of a theocratic world-empire could as easily be dressed in the clothes of a nationalized Christendom with Omar as King. Arabic invasion routes would follow the OTL ones and before you know it you have a three way clash of churches with the Papacy, Patriachy and [insert Arab church here], with the latter in control of Jerusalem.
History needn't be bent too much out of shape as the various peoples (Mongols, Turks etc) can still turn up on schedule. The religious map of the world may be slightly murkier as Christians engage in idealogical bloodletting and we see more of the Fourth and Albigensian Crusades than the First or Third, but on the whole things are quite recognizable.
Croesus
Imajin said:How would Byzantium fall? QUOTE]
The monguls are my top choice for invading byzantium, however the huns or the goths could also topple them. As for turkey, I think their religious status would maintain what their preislamic religions.
BTD said:Imajin said:How would Byzantium fall? QUOTE]
The monguls are my top choice for invading byzantium, however the huns or the goths could also topple them. As for turkey, I think their religious status would maintain what their preislamic religions.
That would probably mean predominately Greek Orthodox or Armenian Monophysite, with some schismatic groups like the Paulicians here and there.
Actually, I have a timeline in the works along this line. The "eruption" out of Arabia actually happened at several points in the history of the region - the Akkadians, the Amorites, the Aramaeans, and finally the Arabs. Interestingly, each of these groups represents a cross section of Semitic as it developed, and each belongs to a different group within the language family (East Semitic, West Semitic, Northwest Semitic, and Central Semitic). They all originated in the same region, AFAWK.Croesus said:I think we're assuming too much about the association between Islam and militant Arabism. You can take Islam away from the Arab, give him Christianity and still have him explode onto the world stage with similar results. It is possible to argue that the 7th-8th C irruption was as much a coming of age for the Arab 'nation' as it was an Islamic conquest of a spiritually bankrupt infidel world.
Leo Caesius said:The "eruption" out of Arabia actually happened at several points in the history of the region - the Akkadians, the Amorites, the Aramaeans, and finally the Arabs.
You're going to scoff at me, but the Arewordik' ("Children of the Sun," a group of sun-worshippers in Armenia) survived until modern times. One of them recently died here in a Massachusetts hospital. For most of history, they were relatively unmolested, even though they did not profess Christianity, as they kept to themselves. They lived in secret, and so there's no telling how many of them survive today, if any. The problem is, like a lot of "heresies" in Armenia, it's difficult to tell if we're dealing with the survival of a chthonic religion or an actual Christian heresy.Matt Quinn said:That would probably mean predominately Greek Orthodox or Armenian Monophysite, with some schismatic groups like the Paulicians here and there.
That sounds very intriguing. I want to see more theological/religious what-ifs that don't center around carving up the Ottoman Empire or eliminating Christianity/Islam entirely (even if that's what I propose to do) but it's always a bit of a sensitive topic here. I'm a field linguist, but I research the last surviving Gnostic tradition (which itself is pre-Islamic and probably pre-Christian) so I've been doing a lot of reading on the early Church and the various Gnostic "heresies" lately. Right now I have my thumb in Yamauchi's Gnostic Ethics and Mandaean Origins, and I've just read Jonas' The Gnostic Religion.Croesus said:Intriguing. It would seem that we're playing with the same fire. I have a TL where the Temple in Jerusalem defies one Seleucid too many and ends up getting deposed in favour of a more pliable theocracy: one where Jeshua/Jesus is recognized by the Samaritans as their messiah Taheb and who thence find that his teachings transform their hitherto minor faith and launches them onto the world stage. The missionary activities of this proto-christianity takes them into the heart of the Arabian peninsula and, armed with monotheistic fire, the Arabs emerge much as they do OTL.
I like the Mani and Nabataean angles.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours...
Croesus
Leo Caesius said:One of the things I wanted to experiment with was an alternate Nicaea. To a large extent, Nicaea was a compromise between different interpretations of Christianity who were unified against Arianism and other heresies. If the major challenge facing the early church was not Arianism but some other more more pressing heresy, then the Confession of Eusebius of Nicomedia (which was the first submitted) might have been better received, and Arius himself might not have been sent into exile. While the Arians, like the Nestorians and the Jacobites, would probably not be tolerated by the "orthodox" church for long, they might have more of an impact in the formative stages - with the result that the early church would have a different creed and the history of its formation (and the canonization of the Bible) might go differently. John might be dumped in favor of some other gospel, or the triumph of the Gnostic sects might cause the "orthodox" church to become more judaizing. Anyways, it's all terribly academic and so I wanted to throw in some good wars and bizarre mystical sects to keep people stimulated.