Modern world with No Islam
- Thread starter Arch-Angel
- Start date
Poison Frog
Banned
Could India manage to industrialize on its own in this world? After all Europe industrialized and India shared europe's past of having large numbers of competing nations before Britian showed up...
India, as usual, does nothing
Well... It's hard to think of what would happen exactly with a country to complex and relatively unknown for many foreigners. Datas missing and all that.
Keenir
Not sure why Constantine picked Christianity although the fact it was a large minority/majority in the territory ruled by his rivals has been suggested. As it was by many reports he largely fudged the issue until he was on his deathbed.
From what I have read the Khazers picked Judaism because it was a similar faith [with compatible main trends to Christianity and Islam but not one of them. Hence it was politically neutral. No danger of finding yourself getting direction from a religious leader influenced by another power]. This might apply in some areas, possibly you might see the Khazers adopting Islam in this TL. However wouldn't affect Ethiopia as it was already Christian and unlikely to affect India who's native religion stood up pretty well to full blooded Muslim conquest.
I think Islam might well offer advantages to elements, especially merchants given their prominence in the faiths structure. This could even be increased if Islam is not associated with a militant expansionist empire. However the problem they will face is that most rulers with look to where the power is. With Byzantium and Persia still the primary powers this is likely to be Christianity and Zoroasteriam. Often people follow where their rulers lead, if only to gain best access to patronage and position. This is even more likely if the religion is a jealous and exclusive one which gives only limited tolerance to others as conversion may well be compelled. Both Christianity and to a lesser degree Zoroasteriam under the Sassanid’s seem to have followed this path as, later on so did many Islamic states.
As such I suspect that while Islam may attract the attention of elements of population and may repeat its historical successes in SE Asia it is unlikely to be successful elsewhere without military successes. The only exception might be sub-Saharan Africa where the slave trade and search for gold led to expansion into that region.
Steve
Keenir
Not sure why Constantine picked Christianity although the fact it was a large minority/majority in the territory ruled by his rivals has been suggested. As it was by many reports he largely fudged the issue until he was on his deathbed.
From what I have read the Khazers picked Judaism because it was a similar faith [with compatible main trends to Christianity and Islam but not one of them. Hence it was politically neutral. No danger of finding yourself getting direction from a religious leader influenced by another power]. This might apply in some areas, possibly you might see the Khazers adopting Islam in this TL. However wouldn't affect Ethiopia as it was already Christian and unlikely to affect India who's native religion stood up pretty well to full blooded Muslim conquest.
I think Islam might well offer advantages to elements, especially merchants given their prominence in the faiths structure. This could even be increased if Islam is not associated with a militant expansionist empire. However the problem they will face is that most rulers with look to where the power is. With Byzantium and Persia still the primary powers this is likely to be Christianity and Zoroasteriam. Often people follow where their rulers lead, if only to gain best access to patronage and position. This is even more likely if the religion is a jealous and exclusive one which gives only limited tolerance to others as conversion may well be compelled. Both Christianity and to a lesser degree Zoroasteriam under the Sassanid’s seem to have followed this path as, later on so did many Islamic states.
As such I suspect that while Islam may attract the attention of elements of population and may repeat its historical successes in SE Asia it is unlikely to be successful elsewhere without military successes. The only exception might be sub-Saharan Africa where the slave trade and search for gold led to expansion into that region.
Steve
Alexander's conquest may have weakened it but it was still the dominant religion in the Persian empire and underwent a revival under the Sassanids. Albeit the later version seemed to be a lot less tolerant of other faiths than the initial Persian empire.
Steve
Yes but they lost Avesta, their holy book and cannot recostructed it if not by voice and lost many important traditions...
Leo Caesius
Banned
Actually, there were originally 21 nasks (books) in the Avesta, one for each word in the Ahuna Vairya prayer, but only about a quarter of the original Avestan texts survives. Some of the nasks were translated into Pahlavi, but most have been completely lost.
Interesting. Never knew all this. Only vaguely that while both the 1st and last [Sassanid] empire were both Zoroasterian in terms of their primary faith the former was well know for its tolerance, even in such tolerant times, while the latter was fairly intolerant. [Although probably still better than the Christian states to the west]. Never realised that they lost so much during Alexander's conquest. Was this his intent or an accidental outcome of the conquest?
Steve
He destroied the books intentionally with the idea of destroyng the core of Iranian culture to lead to a more quick assimilation...on the other hand some people don't belive that he do this and say that were destroyd casually in Persepolis Sack...
Oh look, your second post is a big anti-Islamic troll. And the first one was about nuking North Korea, big contribution there.
Banned.
Mohammed not being born or converting to another religion will have enormous butterflies.
I still think the Arabs will explode, but perhaps several small explosions that tear small pieces off Byzantium and then get assimilated.
Independent Egypt, Levant, and Syria perhaps. Sassanid Persia might go down too, depending on when the smaller Arab explosions come.
North Africa remains part of Western Civilization. The Exarchate of Africa might survive (linked to Constantinople by sea) even if the land route is closed off by smaller-scale Arab conquests.
If Byzantium decides not to reclaim Egypt and the Levant, perhaps they have a better chance of holding southern Italy (which was still heavily Greek). If the Byzantine Empire ever becomes a nation-state, it could become a gigantic Greece (Sicily, southern Italy, Greece proper, and a Hellenized Asia Minor).
I still think the Arabs will explode, but perhaps several small explosions that tear small pieces off Byzantium and then get assimilated.
Independent Egypt, Levant, and Syria perhaps. Sassanid Persia might go down too, depending on when the smaller Arab explosions come.
North Africa remains part of Western Civilization. The Exarchate of Africa might survive (linked to Constantinople by sea) even if the land route is closed off by smaller-scale Arab conquests.
If Byzantium decides not to reclaim Egypt and the Levant, perhaps they have a better chance of holding southern Italy (which was still heavily Greek). If the Byzantine Empire ever becomes a nation-state, it could become a gigantic Greece (Sicily, southern Italy, Greece proper, and a Hellenized Asia Minor).