Muslim Europe, 732 A.D.

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Delvestius

Banned
In 732, Charles Martel, king of the Carolingian Franks, defeated the Muslim armies advancing into Gaul, ending northward Arab expansion and containing Islam in the Iberian peninsula for the next seven and a half centuries.

732 A.D.
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The Arabs, led by Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi, fielded a host centered around fast moving cavalry, while the Frankish defenders were primarily made up of spear infantry, lacking any effective horseman. The Arabs, underestimating the resolve and courage of the Franks, were defeated by the use of anti-cavalry spear boxes.

Perhaps this defeat could have been avoided. Perhaps the Arabs defeat the Franks and continue to wage war in Europe. If this is the case, southern France would be taken in the name of Islam.

The Germanic tribes, such as the Saxons or Alemmanians, were not organized well enough to defend from such a large force, and they had no cavalry, which means they were hopelessly outmatched in terms of speed. The Lombards as well lacked a comparable Military, as is evident from the fact that they capitulated to the Franks a mere 32 years later in the OT. With a fragmented Frankish state to the north, the Arabs would turn their attention to Italy and the Papacy.

Note- It is likely, as this map and the map at the bottom of the page posted by Immortalimpi details, that regions of northern France could remain Catholic and prepared to defend from or even eventually reverse Arab rule. If that's the case, then the Muslim conquest of Italy and Germany would not happen. However, this timeline is one in which Al Ghafiqi has significantly greater support from the Caliph back home in terms of soldiers and supplies, which would allow the Muslims to conquer Western Europe.

It should also be noted that the regions of Basque and Brittany will continue to attempt to exercise autonomy under Arab hegemony with varying levels of success until the centralization of Arab rule in these regions a few centuries later.

Approx. 750 A.D.*
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With the Arabs becoming the new powerhouse of Europe, Islam would no doubt become the most practiced religion. The territories conquered by the Islamic Armies would be inherited by wealthy Arab generals and nobles, and even perhaps Christian nobles who convert. This would cause a general breakdown of "The Caliphate", it becoming more of a federation of Islamic states than a cohesive empire.

Britain would remain the last Christian nation in Western Europe, suffering the occasional sea raid.

Approx. 780 A.D.*
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By around 800 A.D, The Caliphate begins to lose power in the west, while still having a firm hold in the far east over Persia, Punjab, Sindh, etc. The Berber tribes take this and use it to their advantage, many of them casting of Arab rule. Near the Crimea, the Magyars continue to inch their way into the Balkans. The regions of Islamic Spain, Italy and France become quasi-feudal states along preexisting language barriers as the Norseman prepare to begin their raids.

Without any strong unifying factor (which Christianity had provided in the OT), the Germanic Pagans of Central Europe continue to be mostly nomadic, with no true urbanization factor to appear in the near future. Thus, no kingdom has yet arisen.

Note- Spain, France and Italy will progress in the same decentralized, feudal manner that Christian Europe had, with emirates and sultanates replacing duchies and kingdoms. The color division represents the language barriers of these regions, but little else. Even the lines given within these areas are simply to represent the internal division of these areas, and do not necessarily stay exactly as shown throughout the timeline.

Approx 800. A.D.
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Around 850 A.D, the Norse begin to raid northern France, but with less of an effect than they would of had on a Christian France, so they focus more on German and Frisian Coastal Towns, an easier target. England is still raided as in OT. The Magyars continue to work their way into Europe, and the Kievan Rus appear in Russia. Independent Persian sentiments begin to form in Baluchistan and Sindh. By now, most slavs are Eastern orthodox, whereas the Muslim west begins to convert the Germanic tribes.

Approx. 850 A.D.
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By 900 A.D, the Avars have been overran by the Magyars, who finally settle down in the Great Hungarian Plains. The eastern reached of The Caliphate joins the new Persia. The Kieven Rus expand in power and Muslim France begins to move eastward into Germany. The Norsemen begin to colonize parts of Britain and Germany.

900 A.D.
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By 950 A.D, the Orthodox Serbian and Bulgarian Empire join a league with the Byzantines to defend from a possible Muslim invasion. The Norse move further into England, supplanting the Anglo-Saxons, as well as moving further along the north German coast. Muslim France continues it's westward march of conversion and conquest. The Slavs along the Baltic coast begin to have a distinct culture from those living further south. The Kieven Rus in continuing to expand in size and power, and the Pechenegs, and Turkic people, are causing problems in Dacia. Persia continues to gain power.

950 A.D.
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By 1000 A.D, Norsemen in England have subjugated both the Anglo-Saxons and the Celts, leaving Ireland as the only Celtic (and Christian) region. England itself is largely split between Norse Paganism and Christianity, leading in some cases to strange folk religions. In north Africa, Libya and Egypt declare independence from The Abbasid Caliphate and form the Fatimid Caliphate over doctrinal disagreements. The Magyars become converted, the north to Islam and the South to Orthodox. The Kieven Rus, on the verge of collapse to do the competitive nature of various successful city states, has also converted to Orthodox. Muslim France continues to convert westward, allowing for some early Germanic states to coalesce, the Norse continue to colonize southward, strengthening Paganism, and the Slavic tribes continue to be predominately pagan, with Orthodox encroaching from the east. In the east, Persia has collapsed into many smaller entities, all sharing a similar faith and language.

1000 A.D.
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By 1050 A.D, Muslim expansion into Germany creates four organized regions of German speaking Muslims: Saxony, Alemmania, Bavaria and German Pomerania. While not necessarily united into one kingdom, they are recognized by other Muslim powers as legitimate Islamic states. The pagan Norse continue to push downward, seeking to colonize more land, but the Germans soon halt their advance in an uneasy stalemate. The Slavs of central Europe coalesce into one of three main groups: The Pomeranians, the Poles and the Bohemians. The dominion of the Kieven Rus has split into various Orthodox principalities, where trade thrives among the many river systems. The Cumans, a Turkic people, begin to encroach upon the lands of the Pechenegs. In north Africa, the Almoravids invade the Berber states in Morocco and cross into Andalusia, where they gain a foothold but are contained by Muslims there. The Seljuk Turks invade Persia at lightning pace, claiming all lands west of the Hindu-Kush Mountains, leaving the Persian communities in the mountain range intact.

1050 A.D.
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By 1100 A.D, the Almoravids are pushed out of Spain, the Abbasid Caliphate capitulates to the Seljuk Turks, allowing the Fatimid Caliphate to acquire the Hijaz and creating wealthy coastal states in the Levant. The peoples of the Caucasus mountains celebrate autonomy for the first time in ages. Poland is declared an Orthodox Kingdom by the Patriarch of Constantinople.

1100 A.D.
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By 1150 A.D, The Almoravids conquer the Berber states and the Fatimids expand to include Yemen and Palestine. Out of the Ghaznavid Sultanate, the Ghurid Sultanate is born, which fills the gap the Seljuks left as they moved westward. Orthodox Bohemia is declared a vassal kingdom of Poland and the Dutch speaking Muslims of northern Europe gain autonomy, declaring the Emirate of Batavia. The Estonians (Not Balto-Slavic, but occupying the same area as them) and the Lithuanians coalesce into minor powers.

1150 A.D.
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By 1200 A.D, the Ghaznavids split into the Khwarezm Sultanate of Persia and the Delhi Sultanate of India, the first major Islamic power to arise in that area. The Fatimids focus on expanding their eastern border, leaving their western territories vulnerable. The German states continue to push the Vikings northward, and the Russian principalities continue to expand.

1200 A.D.
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Here we see the Mongols beginning their initial conquest. The peoples of Dacia, namely the Valachs and Moldovans, have united under an Orthodox crown to create the Kingdom of Romania.

1220 A.D.
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By 1260 A.D, the Mongols have captured Transoxania, Persia, the Middle East, the Caucasus Mountains, and Russia, and continue to press westward into Europe. They have made vassals of both Novgorod, the most powerful Russian city-state, and the Byzantine Empire, the center of Christianity in Europe. England, while still sharing cultural and lingual ties with the Norse, create their own kingdom, it's faith a version of Christianity in which influence from Norse paganism is readily apparent.

1260 A.D.
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Delvestius

Banned
By approximately 1300, the Mongols had continued their western movement into central Europe virtually unopposed. In OT, the westward Mongol expanse came to an end at the hands of three regional powers: Poland, The Teutonic Knights, nonexistent in this AH due to a lack of a Western Catholic Church, and a unified Kingdom of Hungary, also lacking in this AH due to internal religious divides. With two of the three entities missing, the Poles, reinforced by their meager Bohemian and Pomeranian allies, were not strong enough to fight of the Horde. The Byzantine satellite states had also been conquered, with Byzantium itself being left alone to ensure a continued paying of Mongol tribute.

At the border of Islamic Germany, the Mongols stop advancing for a number of reasons. First, the weather and geography, particularly the mountainous regions and vast forests provided a poor environment for the Calvary tactics the Mongol Armies were centered around. Second, the Mongols, aware that the Orthodox kingdoms had appealed to the Islamic regions to the west before they were conquered, were unwilling to raise the ire of a combined Islamic front from both Germany and Italy, two advanced states with relatively high population centers, which translates to large opposing armies and high resistance. This combination of geography and numbers halted the Mongol advance. Ironically, this choice meant to preserve the Horde's boundaries would lead to it's demise, as unified western expansion, when concluded, turned into rebellions and infighting.

The Seljuk Turks are the first to leave Mongol hegemony. Pagan Denmark is converted to Islam and is regarded as a legitimate Muslim state. The Fatimid Caliphate begins it's existence as the Mamluke Sultanate.

1300 A.D.
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At approximately 1320 A.D, the black plague hits Europe noticeably earlier than it had in OT due to the greater and longer Mongol lordship of eastern Europe. This causes a breakdown of central authority in many Orthodox kingdoms, but actually strengthens the new Lithuanian kingdom, which had just recently converted at the hands of the Russians. In the west, Muslim adherence to sanitation and cleanliness, as well as innovations in science and medicine, translates into a western Europe that suffers significantly less during the black plague as did their OT counterparts. Various states in the Caucasus mountains come under central authority and the Orthodox Kingdom of Georgia is Created. The first attempts to convert northern Scandinavia to Islam are started.

1320 A.D.
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After the tragedy of the Black Plague, nations begin to re-centralize, and political-savvy leaders in the west begin to consolidate various emirates into unified Islamic kingdoms. The Russians attempt to rebuild from the decades of humiliation imposed on them by the Mongols. The Norse courts are at last converted to Islam, but it will be some time before it is regarded as the religion of the people. This makes Pomerania the last pagan nation of Europe. The Kingdom of Lithuania continues to expand, and Poland attempts to re-consolidate the lands lost to power hungry nobles during the Black Death. The Seljuks' conquest of Asia Minor is almost complete and the sacking of Constantinople is on the horizon.

Around 1340, Iberia begins an age of maritime trade and exploration, settling outposts and trade ports along the coast of Africa and India.

1350 A.D.
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By 1400 A.D, Norway and Sweden unite into Islamic region of Al-Kalmar. After the past half century of consolidation, Muslim Spain, France and Italy are for the most part centralized into coherent nations. Starting around 1350, Iberia, with it's large navy and abundance of wealth, begins to send out explorers around the world, claiming ports and coastal land in Africa and Asia.

By 1360, Iberia sends explorers across the Atlantic to see what land and treasures could be found. Thinking that they they may land in China or India, what they found was a land of beauty and bounty. Many excursions followed. The Aztecs are defeated and converted in the 1370s, while the Incans are defeated a decade later. Settlements appear in Florida, the Coast of Mexico and Colombia, while forts and trading posts are erected along the coast of Brazil and the Caribbean.

Novgorod and Muscovy emerge as the dominant Russian states. Poland expands to become one of the largest Centralized states in Europe, and Lithuania expands significantly as well. However, because of the history of religious likeness, the OT Poland-Lithuania superstate never forms, because Poland (not Catholic) never enquirers Lithuania (converted to Orthodox ages before they could be called the last pagan state of Europe) to marry into their royal line. The Seljuks, now under the title of the Ottomans, cross the Aegean and invade the Balkans, capturing almost all of the Byzantine holdings and pushing against the kingdoms of Serbia and Bulgaria. Unlike OT, Serbia and Bulgaria are challenges to be conquered, as centuries of cooperation with surrounding Orthodox states had strengthened them both internally and externally. Timer the Lame, a self proclaimed descendant of the Mongols, carves an empire out of the Il-Khanate, taking Persia and Transoxania, and containing the Mongol Jalayrids in Mesopotamia.

1400 A.D.
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In 1450 A.D, Poland and Lithuania continue to grow in size and power. Muscovy asserts its dominance as the most powerful Russian state and encroaches on the Principality of Novgorod. The Ottoman Sultanate brings down Constantinople, and the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church flees to Poland. Bulgaria and Serbia fall, but Hungary and Wallachia were prepared for the Turkish invaders and had constructed a series of fortifications along the Danube, hoping to defend from the Ottomans indefinitely. The Croatians, vulnerable now that Serbia had fallen to the south, appeal to Hungary, who accepts them into their kingdom.

Iberian colonies spread throughout mexico, Brazil and into Louisiana. Explorers from Al-Franj land further up north near Massachusetts, claiming the Atlantic coast and eastern canada. Batavian explorers claim Nova Scotia, parts of the Caribbean and the River Plate in South America, as well as various ports and outposts along the coast of the Americas and Africa.

1450 A.D.
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By 1500 A.D, Muscovy has been declared a kingdom by the Patriarch in Poland, incorporating Novgorod as well as many minor Russian nations. The Ottomans have defeated the Kingdom of Hungary by brokering a deal with Al-Majareyan, deciding that the lands would be split between the two Muslim nations. The remnants of Wallachia appealed to Poland to protect them from the Turks, and since then there has been a stalemate along that front. The collapse of the Golden Horde into various Khanates and un-populated regions is also readily noticeable, leaving a power vacuum that Muscovy is preparing to fill.

Iberian claims in New World now include all land between Florida and Baja California, the entirety of Central America and the entirety of South America. Al-Franj claims everything else.

1500 A.D.
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By 1550 A.D, The Golden Horde finally comes to an end. The Ottoman Sultanate annexes the Egypt and continues along the Barbary Coast. In India, the Mughal Sultanate is born out of the Delhi Sultanate and begins its progress into southern India. The Safavid Sultanate is born out of the lands of Timer, while Russia, Poland and Lithuania continue to expand.

1550 A.D.
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By 1600 A.D, it is clear that the Western European Islamic states have surpassed all other countries in terms of technology and scientific progression, around 200 years + more advanced than their OT Christian Counterparts. Britain, with its long pagan history and unique religious position never progressed at the rate of the continental Islamic nations. They will indefinitely remain a second rate power.

Poland on the other hand, due to its conversion to Orthodoxy and long history of cooperation with other Orthodox nations, has grown into a powerful superstate and the primary defender of Orthodoxy against Islam after the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Poland, bordering two powerful Islamic nations and one minor one, will have a challenge to face in the future, but with its close and powerful ally Muscovy, it is a challenge whose outcome is impossible to tell.

Muscovy is in a very good position. Like OT Russia at this point, they are a large, wealthy and newly united power with no obstacles between them and explosive growth (save for maybe the Ottomans in the Caucasus Mountains) across the plains of Eurasia. With Poland guarding their west flank, it is a time of excitement and opportunity for this nation.

Hopefully the unchanging borders between the European Islamic countries in these maps have not given you the wrong impression. These nations were by no means allies or constantly at peace with one another, and until approximately 1400 are virtually nothing more than regions of similarly speaking feudal eyelets and emirates. Sometimes one territory would gain central power and attempt to exert their dominance on independent fiefs, such as OT medieval France, but the Islamic states usually existed similar to Italy in its disunity during the Renaissance. War was common between these individual fiefs and nations, and even after centralization the kingdoms engaged in many conflicts and disputes, especially between Iberia and Al-Franj during the colonization of the Americas.

It is hard to say how the colonized regions of North and South America will develop under Islamic rule, especially with the increased scientific and technological progression of the world. Perhaps these discoveries would lead to a mercantile system in which the mother country recognizes the needs of their colonies and does their best to facilitate them just as they would their own people. Or perhaps this would empower the colonies of European nations to declare independence and self rule that much quicker.

In order to view a slideshow of all the maps, click here. The slideshow will start at the end, so go all the way to the picture furthest right by clicking the bottom right arrow where it shows the slides as far as it will go. When you reach the end, click the big left arrow to progress the pictures. Most are in 50 year increments, but a few are not.

1600 A.D.
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Supplemental Maps and Information:

On languages - Due to the nature of alternate histories, languages are bound to be changed, morphed, eradicated or even kept alive. This AH is no exception. the following map shows a breakdown of the languages spoken around the end of this timeline at 1600 A.D. Under it is a key and an explanation to give reasoning.

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Dark Green - Semitic Languages
Arabic (1), numerous dialects
- Lavantine
- Iraqi
- Gulf
- Najdi
- South Najdi
- Omani
- Yemeni
- Hijazi
- Egyptian
- Libyan
- Tunisian
- Moroccan
- Saharan
- Andalusian
- Galician
- Valencian
- Catalonian
- Gasconian
- Pyrenian
- Burgundian
- Provencian
- Frankonian
- Lombardian

Orange - Basque
Basque (2)

Greenish Gold - Celtic
Irish (3)
Breton (4)

Blue - Germanic
Anglo-Danish (5) - Mostly Danish (60-80%, with influences from Anglo-Saxon syntax and vocabulary
Norwegian (6)
Bokmal (7) - A type of Norwegian that uses the Futhark instead of the Arabic alphabet, causing many distinguishable pronunciation differences.
Swedish (8)
Jutland-Danish (9)
Coastlander Saxon (10) - A form of German more closely related to the Saxon parent language with influence from Danish.
Batavian (11)
Frankish (12)
German (13)
- Low German
- High German

Brown- Romance Languages
Italian (14)
- Neopolitan
- Florencian
- Venetian

Green- Slavic Languages
Polish (15)
- Pomeranian
- Standard Polish
*Mazovian
*Galician
- Bohemian
Russian (16)
- Muscovian
- Novgorodian
- Kieven
- Smolensky
- Archangelsky
- Don
-Ryazansky
Romanian (17)
- Wallachian
- Moldovan
Bulgarian (18)
- Bulgarian
- Macedonian
Serbo-Croatian (19) - Unlike the OT debacle, these languages share the same alphabet. There are very much the same, but people still assert differences.
- Serbian
- Croatian

Red - Greek
Greek (20)

Gold - Altaic Languages
Turkish (21)
Mongol and Turkoman languages (22)

Purple - Persian Languages (23)
Farsi
Pashto
Kurdish
Balochi

Magenta - Indic Languages (24)
Punjabi
Sindhi
Kashmiri
Nepali
Bengali
Rajastani
Hindi
Gujarati
Marati

Burgundy - Dravidian Languages (25)
Telugu
Tamil
Malayalam
Kannada

Gray - Ugaic Languages
Majayaran (26) - Hungarian that uses the Arabic alphabet
Hungarian (27) - Uses the Cyrillic alphabet
Finnish (28)
Estonian (29)

Beige - Balto-Slavic
Lithuanian (31)

Lavander - Caucasian Languages (32)
Georgian
Dagestani

Religions Map 1600

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Islam
- Medium Green: Sunni
- Grass Green: Shi'ite
- Dark Green: Messianic (Focus on the Messiah)
- Light Green: Northern (Less dietary restrictions and cold weather adaptions)

Christianity
- Red: Western Catholic
- Dark Red: Eastern Orthodox
- Orange: Anglo-Christian (Odin = God, Jesus {Baldr} is his one "true" son, all the other gods are angels, Valkyries are lesser angels, Sutr is the Devil and Loki is his right hand man, and other awesome stuff like that)

Other
- Light Blue: Buddhism
- Dark Gray: Hinduism
- Silver: Tribalism/Not Inhabited
- White: Pagan (Traces in Brittany, Basque, Pomerania)

American Colonization Maps 1450-1600, increments of 50 years
Gold- Iberia
Ice Blue- Al-Franj
Green- Batavia

Light is claimed land, dark is settled land.

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732 was a more difficult PoD than 721 where Odo of Aquitane defeated another Muslim force, the reason being that the few years between these two allowed the Frankish state to crystallize further and subdue such trouble doers as Odo. That being said, for a PoD in 732 perhaps the best PoD in the battle itself would be to avoid the death of Ghafqi. He was rallying his forces to smash the Franks when he was killed, presumably by an arrow.

PoD considerations aside, there is a considerable problem that not only is Frankland more populated than Spain, but it's also more decentralized. There are plentiful dukes and rulers who would gladly split off of Frankland as soon as they hear of the death of Charles, who was the glue that held it together. This makes the whole thing extremely hard for the Arabs. Not to mention that the Berber revolt which is coming up will distract the Arabs for a fair while, and the majority of the Arab forces, likely to be Berbers and Syrians, will not be trusted or sent to fight respectively. There is also the Umayyad practice of constantly replacing competent governors or Generals. Ghafqi's personality is difficult to determine. I would think he was fairly subordinate to the Caliph.

Another extremely important thing to consider in Frankland: There is nothing like the Jews. In Spain they were extremely invaluable in both the campaigns and afterwards. In the campaigns jews often opened the gates of cities wholesale, angry at the extreme intolerance taht the Visigoths had imposed upon them. They would give intelligence and it has been theorized that they supplied much information to Tariq before his invasion. In Frankland, there are very few Jews. Those that are there are fairly marginalized and doubtful to be helpful. If Charles Martel survives Poiters the invasion will be extremely difficult, not to mention that Charles' appeal to Pavia would likely be listened considering that in such an atmosphere the Arabs may begin to attack the Lombards. While they certainly did not pay dues to the Pope or anything like that, they did not want a preoccupied nation replaced with an Arab powerhouse capable of attacking them from multiple sides. If this happens it will further make the Arab invasion hell. It is likely that Ghafqi will have to ask for reinforcements from the Caliph in order to continue his campaign.

In any case, if we ignore the above difficulties and have a Muslim France, it has massive implications. France has been drawn into the Arab cultural sphere and it will further be able to benefit from the huge trade network. The southern farms and irrigation systems will be repaired and Francia will become a massive commercial powerhouse like Al-Andalus. Importantly, unlike Al-Andalus, it has important concerns. The Lombards and Saxons are the first and foremost problems and for this task they will need a much more active military force than the Umayyads of Cordoba ever had. It will still be a Jihadist state, probably despising its lax neighbor to the south and even having aspirations to destroy them.

The actual state itself will likely be formed after the termination of the Umayyads. It is questionable if such a state will form a polity like Abd al-Rahman unless there is some stroke of luck but being so ridiculously far from the Abbasid center of power it may yet becoming independent.

The peripheries of it are another interesting question. The state is a powerful one but the Saxons were a massive hurdle for even Charlemagne to overcome. England is likely to be left alone besides a raid from the shores of the channel. I think that most of eastern France and parts of Northern France(depending on if vassals survive) will become marches settled perhaps by converted Slavs or, later, Turks. The Berbers were fairly angry at their arrangement with the Umayyads, being placed in the Spanish highlands. I doubt they'll react happily to being placed in cold forests!

The center of the state will probably be centered in the south. This is where the infrastructure is, this is where the connections to the Mediterranean are, and this is where the climate is best. Maybe Paris or another city in the north will become a summer capital but it is unlikely. The area of the north may have a short renaissance but the Norsemen are going to hit it hard. They will be repelled much faster and more easily by the Arab warships, considering that they will be able to pay for these ships, but it will still be a hellish time. With the Norsemen pushed out of Francia the implications for England, their other main target, are immense. Noting the difficulty to raid their southern target, the Vikings will intensify their attacks on the British Isles. The result is likely to be one of terror.

Just my two cents for this. The Lombards and Saxons will be extremely difficult to pacify. Barring a Charlemagne analogue it is doubtful the Avars will be wiped out for a long time. I also really doubt that the Caliphate would be able to successfully invade Byzantium post Sulayman's attacks. To put it simply, even Harun Al-Raschid acknowledged the difficulty of attacking such a state. An interesting premise to be sure, and I hope my analysis helped.
 

Delvestius

Banned
Very thorough, Sir!

I can agree with much of what you reasoned, but I have just a few questions: Do you think that the Frankish vassals would agree to convert and switch sides if promised greater feudal powers within their states? Also, would you think it plausible that the Saxons and Avars attack Muslim France outright, or would they stay their advance as long as they were left alone?

Thanks for your ideas!
 
I can agree with much of what you reasoned, but I have just one question: Do you think that the Frankish vassals would agree to convert and switch sides if promised greater feudal powers within their states? Further, would you think it plausible that the Saxons and Avars attack Muslim France outright, or would they stay their advance as long as they were left alone?

I would think not. In the case of Charles Martel losing at Poiters, it is rather like sharks smelling blood. If Ghafqi can decisively defeat him at Poiters, it is likely that many areas that were formerly independent but subject to Charles' rule will once again split off. Brittany may go, as may the Burgundians. Besides occupying the Frankish marches, I do not see the Saxons doing much except perhaps raiding into the Muslim Frankish state. Unlike the Lombards or other Christians, they are not particularly compared to defeat the Terrible Saracen threat. Likely they'll enjoy their freedom from the Frankish menace for some time. The Avars were at the end of their raiding days; they had become fairly sedentary at this point and the encroaching Slavs had whittled down the actual Avar majority areas. It is likely that without a massive punitive campaign by Charlemagne they will eventually settle down and assimilate into the Slavs, like the Bulgars. This ignores the Magyars, of course.
 

Delvestius

Banned
I would think not. In the case of Charles Martel losing at Poiters, it is rather like sharks smelling blood. If Ghafqi can decisively defeat him at Poiters, it is likely that many areas that were formerly independent but subject to Charles' rule will once again split off. Brittany may go, as may the Burgundians. Besides occupying the Frankish marches, I do not see the Saxons doing much except perhaps raiding into the Muslim Frankish state. Unlike the Lombards or other Christians, they are not particularly compared to defeat the Terrible Saracen threat. Likely they'll enjoy their freedom from the Frankish menace for some time. The Avars were at the end of their raiding days; they had become fairly sedentary at this point and the encroaching Slavs had whittled down the actual Avar majority areas. It is likely that without a massive punitive campaign by Charlemagne they will eventually settle down and assimilate into the Slavs, like the Bulgars. This ignores the Magyars, of course.

I can see that, but I'm sure you would agree that Aquitaine, also quite independent would be too central to the Muslim agenda to be able to muster resistance, yes?

As long as the Arabs retain southern Gaul and Italy, and do not immediately agitate Germans, Slavs, etc., would you say that the conversion of Europe to Islam is definite, and is this an otherwise solid AH?

EDIT: Unless the Byzantines remain a tough nut to crack, and provide a platform in which Christianity could convert the Slavs and Magyars. What is your thought on that?
 
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I can see that, but I'm sure you would agree that Aquitaine, also quite independent would be too central to the Muslim agenda to be able to muster resistance, yes?

As long as the Arabs retain southern Gaul and Italy, and do not immediately agitate Germans, Slavs, etc., would you say that the conversion of Europe to Islam is definite, and is this an otherwise solid AH?

Aquitaine has been occupied by Rahman during his invasion. Though a revolt is likely there is not going to be organized State resistance as Charles, ironically, destroyed Aquitaine's power a few years before. The area will be, along with the Rhone valley and Occitania in general, the most important part of the Muslim state there.

I would not say that an Arab conversion of Europe is definite. Barring a catastrophic invasion of Italy that completely crushes the Italian powers(which seems unlikely) there will still be important vestiges of Catholic power, and East Rome is still around. Russia will likely convert to Christianity. The Saxons may convert to the some Skewed form of Islam where the eating of pig is still allowed or the dietary restrictions are altogether reduced. The Norsemen are a wild card and they may stay pagan for a longer time. The Slavs are as OTL- whoever can get to them first.

On the Byzantines; they will likely be uncrushable for the Muslims. By this point they've already massively overstepped their own expectations and the Abbasids will likely not stage any further campaigns. I think that everything from Czechslovakia down to Thrace will be Orthodox.
 
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If and when does North Western Iberia fall to the Muslims. IOTL it never fell which Im pretty sure has to do with some major geographic barriers and the seperate Basque culturally identity. (I could be way off on this and be spitting out random crap, sorry if I am but I think that thats right)
 

Delvestius

Banned
You are definitely right in that the Basque region is very distinct from any other previous regional culture. However, it lies right near the passes of the Pyrenees that the Arabs used to enter France, which made it a very easy region for the Arabs to acquire.
 

Delvestius

Banned
Soon after I guess, It doesn't take much.

If you're referring to the first map, I just colored it all green to represent the firm, unshakable grasp the Arabs had on Iberia conceptually, if not physically.
 
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If you're referring to the first map, I just colored it all green to represent the firm, unshakable grasp the Arabs had on Iberia conceptually, if not physically.

???
They really didnt...

Its a minor detail but the kingdom of Galicia was strongly independant and I believe led the Reconquesta. Its your TL though.
 
You are definitely right in that the Basque region is very distinct from any other previous regional culture. However, it lies right near the passes of the Pyrenees that the Arabs used to enter France, which made it a very easy region for the Arabs to acquire.

Incorrect. The Arabs used the lowlands of Catalonia and the pass through Septimania. Navarre was way off to the side, its people were ferociously independent pagans, and the area was altogether a backwater. They will likely be some of the last people the Muslims will attack and convert. The Christians of Northern Spain are in an interesting predicament. It is likely that they will have to eventually bow to the rule of the Cordobans, but they will keep their independence for a fairly long time, sheltered in the Cantabrian mountains. It is extremely questionable that they will be able to have a sustained effort beyond the Cantabrian Mountains. The Amirs/Caliphs of the Cordobans will likely seek to capture the important fortresses. There may be an eventual defeat of the Spanish enclaves; with no Franks to distract them, this seems almost inevitable. However, it will be neither easy nor of interest to the Amirs. Like the Mazandarani Shahs, they will likely keep independence for a very long time.
 
Galicia's situation seems analogous to Nubia after Egypt became Islamic. I've often thought an inconclusive battle of Poiters where Charles Martel (not the Muslim General as OTL) would be an ideal starting point for an Al Andalus wank.
A drawn battle would obviate the temptation for Islamic troops to raid/conquer further North, and without their forceful mayor of the palace to topple them, the Merovingians might well cling to power for another generation or so. By the time the Franks reunited under a capable leader, the bulk of Iberia could be more or less securely under Islamic rule.
 
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Delvestius

Banned
Incorrect. The Arabs used the lowlands of Catalonia and the pass through Septimania. Navarre was way off to the side, its people were ferociously independent pagans, and the area was altogether a backwater. They will likely be some of the last people the Muslims will attack and convert. The Christians of Northern Spain are in an interesting predicament. It is likely that they will have to eventually bow to the rule of the Cordobans, but they will keep their independence for a fairly long time, sheltered in the Cantabrian mountains. It is extremely questionable that they will be able to have a sustained effort beyond the Cantabrian Mountains. The Amirs/Caliphs of the Cordobans will likely seek to capture the important fortresses. There may be an eventual defeat of the Spanish enclaves; with no Franks to distract them, this seems almost inevitable. However, it will be neither easy nor of interest to the Amirs. Like the Mazandarani Shahs, they will likely keep independence for a very long time.

For all intents and purposes, It's not as if the Galicians or Asturians or Basques would be able to disrupt an Islamic West without The Franks or Aquitaine or any other Christian Authority to support them, yes?

EDIT: And I would argue that Navarre wasn't THAT far off... They could have done it pretty slyly.
 
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Faeelin

Banned
Those that are there are fairly marginalized and doubtful to be helpful.

Plus, the Jews of Frankland were pretty well off and patronized by the kings.

It will still be a Jihadist state, probably despising its lax neighbor to the south and even having aspirations to destroy them.

Where are we getting the manpower to conquer Gaul, anyway?

The Berbers were fairly angry at their arrangement with the Umayyads, being placed in the Spanish highlands. I doubt they'll react happily to being placed in cold forests!

I don't know. is the Rhone so different from Algeria?

They will be repelled much faster and more easily by the Arab warships, considering that they will be able to pay for these ships, but it will still be a hellish time.

Pay for? How?
 
Plus, the Jews of Frankland were pretty well off and patronized by the kings.

Indeed. In Visigoth Spain they were a considerable help. I'd think in Frankland they wouldn't be interested in helping the Arabs.



Where are we getting the manpower to conquer Gaul, anyway?

Like the manpower to conquer Spain. Berbers first, then the Yemenis, Syrians, and Iraqi Arab troops would be sent. The Umayyads didn't seem to have such trouble with sending a few thousand at a time, which. The army of Charles Martel itself didn't have more than perhaps 13,000 troops, and it was the largest army Western Europe had seen in centuries.


I don't know. is the Rhone so different from Algeria?

The Rhone is not going to be a march. Since the Berbers were marginalized and generally placed in the more inhospitable March areas in Spain, where they could be a first line of defense, the idea may cross the mind of the Arab Governors of Firanj(as we will call Muslim France for now). However, this is likely to provoke much anger among the Berbers. If anything, they may settled in the areas of Savoy, which is perhaps the only area I could see suitable for them. Though the Arabs may think of placing them along the Rhine, it is likely that a bad winter where the March troops are devastated and they revolt will make them decide otherwise. This makes me think that beyond the warmer areas of France there will be little control by the Caliphate for quite some time. They are doubtful to readily employ Franks and it will be a few centuries before Muslims become the majority in the land.



Pay for? How?

Complicated professional navies cost money. Since the Arabs are not Vikings, they would need a large treasury to pay for the exuberant costs required in keeping this navy. It is likely that like in Spain the commercial rebirth after the renewal of more extensive ties with the Mediterranean would be fed into the treasury allowing for a navy to be constructed. Again, this depends on whether or not the Arabs want to conquer all of Francia, which seems increasingly unlikely. The lands across the Rhine may not be ventured into except perhaps for slaves for many a year, and Northern France will probably consist of states(The Merovingian remnant?) hanging on to what remains. The frontier here may in fact be protected by marches settled with Berbers or converted Franks.

Also, Faeelin, you seem to find every opportunity to argue with me lately :D
 
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Here is a map I have composed(Cannibalized from Wikipedia and changed a bit) in order to show what the normal borders a Victorious Muslim France would have. Note that Gascony has generally been a more isolated region and that Septimania will probably get disputed with al-Andalus.

EDIT: And I would argue that Navarre wasn't THAT far off... They could have done it pretty slyly.

Navarra is full of hostile independent people, while Septimania isn't, not to mention Septimania is a faster route to the important places such as Toulouse. Navarra leads you to Gascony which is a fairly wild region at this time.


NjDOQ.png
 
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