AH Challenge: Uber Seelowe, A German invasion of America.
- Thread starter The Red
- Start date
OK, The UK goes fascist during the 1930s (How likely is that?). It signs an alliance with the Germans. Meanwhile, there is a communist revolution in America that leaves it severely weakened. The USSR somehow gets tied up fighting Japan in China. So the UK launches an invasion of Communist USA from Canada, and the Germans launch a joint invasion with the UK of the east coast.
Since this is Unmentionable Sea Mammal-wank, Thande will hand down the maximum sentence.
The Vulture
Banned
Mexico and Central American countries go fascist and ally with Germany, allowing them to push over the Rio Grande?
Wait, that's Red Dawn.
Wait, that's Red Dawn.
This is a good way to do it, but IMO you should keep Japan in the UK-Germany axis. So US goes commie and falls into chaos in '35, prompting radical rightists in the UK to take power, and by the end of the 1930's to join Germany and Italy in the anti-Comintern pact. With both the UK and Germany in one bloc, all of Europe beings to fall in line behind them, with France backing down when Germany threatens war to get AL back. Stalin begins acting belligerent, due to being completely isolated from any allies, pushing Japan into the Anti-Comintern Pact. Then, Stalin, paranoid that Germany and the UK and planning a war against him, tries to launch a preventive war, uniting Europe, behind the fascist Germans, against him. The war ends by '44, and by this point the Anti-Comintern Pact has the bomb, and decides to remove all communism from the world. Thus, they plan Operation Sea Dragon, a planned invasion of the USA to support the right wing fascist forces. This should be a TL!
I never said Japan wasn't in the axis, just that Stalin got himself tied up in a war in Asia that the Europeans officially stayed out of. But yes, this should be a TL!
One small comment: Should any Communist American-Faction become dominant in the USA, then would they not rush to their beleaguered Russian allies and declare war on the Japanese?
With the PoD no earlier than '33, that means FDR wins his first presidential election. His VP, John Garner, once said the office of VP wasn't worth a bucket of piss, or somesuch. In OTL '38 and '39, he clashed with FDR over many key issues. What if he clashes with FDR sooner? What if this clash leads to a split in the traditional Democrat party supporting Garner and the New Dealists backing FDR? Would this be a plausible point for violent reactions, especially with the Brown Shirt demonstrations erupting from Europe?
***Say this is the US PoD, and an ensuing civil war (of sorts) begins. Right-wing against Left-wing, or whatever. Fascists vs. Commies on American soil. A new sort of CSA (southern ultra-conservatives) forms and threatens to split the Union again, the war erupts, semi-concurrent with the Spanish Civil War and new weapons and techniques are tested. Mexico eyes the north with something between wild hope and fear, and UK-backed Canada gets a little nervous. This leads to greater debate in Parliament about what to do with the rising Fascists in Europe (and threat of war likely) and the once-allied American Commies gaining support. Eventually the right takes command and a point for Churchill disappears (or somesuch).
The (2nd) American Civil War rages for several years, blahblahblah. Germany and Italy stand firm and go through all the motions of land-grabbing as OTL, though Hitler speaks out against the Bolsheviks in the New World, even offers to send his troops to the USA (Or the CSA? No, not that one, but the Communist States of America?) on the pretext of protecting the (can't think of the word) Americans of German descent/ancestry. Terrarians? Or somesuch.
This alone could be the invasion, if you wish, though unlikely. More likely, Hitler would reach out over the radio to speak to these people and attempt to strike them into some sort of resistance band. Later, these guys could act as a sort of French Resistance that aided the Normandy Landings... just Anglo-German Resistance aiding the... Arlington landings, or something.
With right-wingers in Parliament, that removes the kind old man of Chamberlain from every saying "peace for our time" as likely the Brits would back the German land coups, sticking France's backsides out in the wind. Again, likely, the French would back down, and maybe even go through a puppet Vichy stage.
Russia. Yeah. They're nervous. Maybe help from across the Bering Strait? Move into Manchuria/Manchukuo in a bid to link up with the Chinese Communist Guerillas under some guy named Mao? Maybe even that guy over in IndoChina. What's his name? Ho-Chi-Minh or something. I don't know.
Communist USA emerges victorious in Red Revolution. Mexico is in the heart of its Maximato period, and backed the American Commies. This led to the 2nd Cristero War in Mexico which ended in brutal repercussions amongst that countries catholics, as the country turned more radical and left-leaning. (The Point Here is the Mexico is a likely American-Commie Ally.)
British holds around the world stiffen. Aid is promised to the Japanese, and the Dutch are pressured from both Britain and Germany in to allowing Japanese free trade in Indonesia... or something. British regulars take up positions in Canada. Germany and Italy consolidate the Balkans, angering/scaring Stalin? Not sure here what Stalin would do without the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. And without that, how might Finland and the rest of Scandinavia stand in the looming war?
USA begins massive industrialization effort (New Deal on meth) and quickly builds the armed forces with the sciences learned during the Red Revolution. Depending on what is going on in Asia or Europe, the Americans might concentrate in one area or the other. With Brit Royal Navy on one side and Jap Imperial Navy on the other... few easy choices.
Something guy spills his drink on some other guy's lap at a diplomatic meeting and fisticuffs ensue. Smeared over the papers, nations howl for war, and we're off!
American tank columns punch through to Montreal, Quebec, and that other city. You know the one. The Capital of Canada... no one ever remembers the name. Quickly the USA takes control of countryside and the Trans-Canadian Railway and begins shipping material to Alaska where convoys can rush them over to Russia (fighting the Japanese all the way, of course). Germany launches Operation Barbarossa of somesort and nearly takes Moscow. With this, the Russian Eastern theatre nearly disintegrates, but America has begun taking some fight out of the Japs with some allied help (Let's face it, USSR and CSA need some other worldly help besides Mexico and the scattered rebel groups--so who?!). Maybe France kicks up some dust and is a mild annoyance to Germany, slowing supplies sufficiently that Moscow holds through the winter.
Hawai'i falls to a Japanese invasion, along with Midway, and those other places. A joint Anglo-Indian-Japanese invasion of the Philippines (which couldn't figure out how they felt about a Commie USA) puts the Americans on the defensive in the Pacific for a time. British commandos start operation all along Americas coasts, particularly from Caribbean holdings. Italy pisses off the Arabs and the 'modern' Italian army falls on its face a few times in the desert. Germany, afearful of the threat of lost oil supplies, sticks this task to the Brits who are already at hand in those regions. Indian troops have to be brought in for this little maneuver.
And I have to take a pizza delivery, so... yeah, read that and speak further.
***The Communist Revolution of the USA in this thread is not like the American Revolution or the American Civil War, where a definitive fact/ideal/argument is the line in the sand. If anything, it is rather more like the French Revolution, and possibly the Bolshevik, where the leaders in the early stages are not present at the end. Therefore the progression of the ideals and the reasons for the war alter through each subsequent leader. Does that make sense, or am I just a loony pizza delivery boy?
With the PoD no earlier than '33, that means FDR wins his first presidential election. His VP, John Garner, once said the office of VP wasn't worth a bucket of piss, or somesuch. In OTL '38 and '39, he clashed with FDR over many key issues. What if he clashes with FDR sooner? What if this clash leads to a split in the traditional Democrat party supporting Garner and the New Dealists backing FDR? Would this be a plausible point for violent reactions, especially with the Brown Shirt demonstrations erupting from Europe?
***Say this is the US PoD, and an ensuing civil war (of sorts) begins. Right-wing against Left-wing, or whatever. Fascists vs. Commies on American soil. A new sort of CSA (southern ultra-conservatives) forms and threatens to split the Union again, the war erupts, semi-concurrent with the Spanish Civil War and new weapons and techniques are tested. Mexico eyes the north with something between wild hope and fear, and UK-backed Canada gets a little nervous. This leads to greater debate in Parliament about what to do with the rising Fascists in Europe (and threat of war likely) and the once-allied American Commies gaining support. Eventually the right takes command and a point for Churchill disappears (or somesuch).
The (2nd) American Civil War rages for several years, blahblahblah. Germany and Italy stand firm and go through all the motions of land-grabbing as OTL, though Hitler speaks out against the Bolsheviks in the New World, even offers to send his troops to the USA (Or the CSA? No, not that one, but the Communist States of America?) on the pretext of protecting the (can't think of the word) Americans of German descent/ancestry. Terrarians? Or somesuch.
This alone could be the invasion, if you wish, though unlikely. More likely, Hitler would reach out over the radio to speak to these people and attempt to strike them into some sort of resistance band. Later, these guys could act as a sort of French Resistance that aided the Normandy Landings... just Anglo-German Resistance aiding the... Arlington landings, or something.
With right-wingers in Parliament, that removes the kind old man of Chamberlain from every saying "peace for our time" as likely the Brits would back the German land coups, sticking France's backsides out in the wind. Again, likely, the French would back down, and maybe even go through a puppet Vichy stage.
Russia. Yeah. They're nervous. Maybe help from across the Bering Strait? Move into Manchuria/Manchukuo in a bid to link up with the Chinese Communist Guerillas under some guy named Mao? Maybe even that guy over in IndoChina. What's his name? Ho-Chi-Minh or something. I don't know.
Communist USA emerges victorious in Red Revolution. Mexico is in the heart of its Maximato period, and backed the American Commies. This led to the 2nd Cristero War in Mexico which ended in brutal repercussions amongst that countries catholics, as the country turned more radical and left-leaning. (The Point Here is the Mexico is a likely American-Commie Ally.)
British holds around the world stiffen. Aid is promised to the Japanese, and the Dutch are pressured from both Britain and Germany in to allowing Japanese free trade in Indonesia... or something. British regulars take up positions in Canada. Germany and Italy consolidate the Balkans, angering/scaring Stalin? Not sure here what Stalin would do without the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. And without that, how might Finland and the rest of Scandinavia stand in the looming war?
USA begins massive industrialization effort (New Deal on meth) and quickly builds the armed forces with the sciences learned during the Red Revolution. Depending on what is going on in Asia or Europe, the Americans might concentrate in one area or the other. With Brit Royal Navy on one side and Jap Imperial Navy on the other... few easy choices.
Something guy spills his drink on some other guy's lap at a diplomatic meeting and fisticuffs ensue. Smeared over the papers, nations howl for war, and we're off!
American tank columns punch through to Montreal, Quebec, and that other city. You know the one. The Capital of Canada... no one ever remembers the name. Quickly the USA takes control of countryside and the Trans-Canadian Railway and begins shipping material to Alaska where convoys can rush them over to Russia (fighting the Japanese all the way, of course). Germany launches Operation Barbarossa of somesort and nearly takes Moscow. With this, the Russian Eastern theatre nearly disintegrates, but America has begun taking some fight out of the Japs with some allied help (Let's face it, USSR and CSA need some other worldly help besides Mexico and the scattered rebel groups--so who?!). Maybe France kicks up some dust and is a mild annoyance to Germany, slowing supplies sufficiently that Moscow holds through the winter.
Hawai'i falls to a Japanese invasion, along with Midway, and those other places. A joint Anglo-Indian-Japanese invasion of the Philippines (which couldn't figure out how they felt about a Commie USA) puts the Americans on the defensive in the Pacific for a time. British commandos start operation all along Americas coasts, particularly from Caribbean holdings. Italy pisses off the Arabs and the 'modern' Italian army falls on its face a few times in the desert. Germany, afearful of the threat of lost oil supplies, sticks this task to the Brits who are already at hand in those regions. Indian troops have to be brought in for this little maneuver.
And I have to take a pizza delivery, so... yeah, read that and speak further.
***The Communist Revolution of the USA in this thread is not like the American Revolution or the American Civil War, where a definitive fact/ideal/argument is the line in the sand. If anything, it is rather more like the French Revolution, and possibly the Bolshevik, where the leaders in the early stages are not present at the end. Therefore the progression of the ideals and the reasons for the war alter through each subsequent leader. Does that make sense, or am I just a loony pizza delivery boy?
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Makes a LOT of sense!
However, according to Wikipedia, the major reason for a softening of the Communist Party USA in the 1930s was FDR's election and his Industrial Recovery programs. The way I see it, a POD in 1932 (FDR loses) would be better for this TL.
That was going to be my original proposal, but I saw the PoD at '33, so I couldn't. The next best was a division in his party early on in his term.
Neroon
Banned
1. Take the TL 191 concept of a successful CSA seccession resulting in a CP victory with US as part of CP.
2. CSA goes fascist.
3. WW2 breaks out
4. Unlike TL191 Germany defeats it's enemies within a year or so, while US keeps getting hit hard.
5. After a year of preperation and supported by the US Navy, Germany launches an amphibious invasion of Cuba using it later as a springboard for an invasion of the CSA.
Invasion of America as in CSA rather than US, but still same continent.
Besides having Naval Supremacy with the US on it's side this scenario would also have the bulk of the CSA's forces tied up fighting the US, rather than a united USA being able to throw it's entire might against any beachhead.
2. CSA goes fascist.
3. WW2 breaks out
4. Unlike TL191 Germany defeats it's enemies within a year or so, while US keeps getting hit hard.
5. After a year of preperation and supported by the US Navy, Germany launches an amphibious invasion of Cuba using it later as a springboard for an invasion of the CSA.
Invasion of America as in CSA rather than US, but still same continent.
Besides having Naval Supremacy with the US on it's side this scenario would also have the bulk of the CSA's forces tied up fighting the US, rather than a united USA being able to throw it's entire might against any beachhead.
I still don't remember, but in regards to this:
Who's running Germany in the case of a CP victory in WW1? Along with that, should the Germans win WW1, what would their military be like at the outbreak of WW2?
What would Russia be doing about this, on one hand yes, they've got pretty much the whole of Europe raised against them, on the other, they've just gotten America as an ally. At what point does America pull its socks up and organise, because should the Germans try and invade Russia, the ComSA would most likely come to the aid of their ally.
from my cellular so forgive for typos and lack of punctuation...
About the TL191 - Before the designated PoD. thats what i couldnt place before... i think.
I like this idea. Except I'm just too shaky on politics worldwide beyond Hitler is bad and commies are evil. Try to keep up:
1. how likely would it be to align britain with germany?
1a. why is this necessary?
1b. why not neutral?
2. would the anticomintern pact still be pleasing enough to pursue (what with britain allied and the rest cowed or otherwise occupied)?
3. if japan is left out of the loop, how likely would they be to attack the british/dutch/etc in the pacific?
3a. would this be enough to make the ussr look to signing a NAP with them and concentrate on aiding mao?
3b. could the japs and chinese let bygones be bygones in this scenario?
4. does the usa undergo any major change, such as the proposed communist revolution (which i really like)?
4a. how organized are the ruling classes?
4b. can they shift to a production/war f
About the TL191 - Before the designated PoD. thats what i couldnt place before... i think.
I like this idea. Except I'm just too shaky on politics worldwide beyond Hitler is bad and commies are evil. Try to keep up:
1. how likely would it be to align britain with germany?
1a. why is this necessary?
1b. why not neutral?
2. would the anticomintern pact still be pleasing enough to pursue (what with britain allied and the rest cowed or otherwise occupied)?
3. if japan is left out of the loop, how likely would they be to attack the british/dutch/etc in the pacific?
3a. would this be enough to make the ussr look to signing a NAP with them and concentrate on aiding mao?
3b. could the japs and chinese let bygones be bygones in this scenario?
4. does the usa undergo any major change, such as the proposed communist revolution (which i really like)?
4a. how organized are the ruling classes?
4b. can they shift to a production/war f