uh.... in these books, the south won the ACW, Germany won WW1 and is apparently winning WW2, and the focus of the books is on conflict between the USA and CSA....
...and you're saying this isn't really alternate history?
Your Predictions For HT's SETTLING ACCOUNTS: TO THE DEATH
- Thread starter Arizona Ranger
- Start date
uh.... in these books, the south won the ACW, Germany won WW1 and is apparently winning WW2, and the focus of the books is on conflict between the USA and CSA....
...and you're saying this isn't really alternate history?
He's just mad because Turtledove isn't letting the United Kingdom land in Long Island to defeat the USA and freeing Canada. Unless it happens just like that, Turtledove is just making a copy of our world and selling it back. Or he could just stop reading the 191 series. Thus, it cannot be "proper" AH in any sense.
- Goes back to eye rolling at New York, who should change his name to London Hyatt -
I guess Cuba will be similar to Austria in OTL, get independent and claim to be the "first victim" of the CSA.
Might also happen to Sonorra and Chihuaha (how do you spell that again?)
Alaska might not stay Russian (what about a Japanese Alaska?)
The Race arrives ... (unlikely)
Scipios is idealised
Might also happen to Sonorra and Chihuaha (how do you spell that again?)
Alaska might not stay Russian (what about a Japanese Alaska?)
The Race arrives ... (unlikely)
Scipios is idealised
Anytime London. Oh yeah I have a great idea you might like: what if the USA defeats the CSA, kills all the Canadian rebels and fills the land with decent hardworking Americans, then lands in Wales to just royally kick the crap out of the British royals(just them and no one else). Winston Churchill surrenders and then the USA invades Andorra to take over southern France! Then the Americans can add all of these lands as new states, helped by an eager Ireland! Then Germany can add extra divisions to help in this occupation lead by Governor Hitler.
How about that for some AH?
You know its suprising.
But nobody has mentioned Mexico. Francisco-Jose is a Hapsburg how cool would it be if he 'shocked the world with his ingratitude' and declared war on the CSA.
Part of his army is already on CS soil, he knows their short of men, material and well everythingelse, the writing is already on the wall of how the war is going to end its just a matter of when. I know he is supposed to be an Italy analog but I just dont see a Hapsburg not having the sense to switch sides for political advantage. I mean...their Hapsburgs its kind of what the Dynasty is famous for.
Southern Sonora and Chihuahua is a good possibility. Heck a chunk of Texas isnt even completly out of the question, with the precedent of Houston.
Not to mention the CSA is beat, France and England are looking to be beat. F-J needs someone to back him to prop him up and if he is helping the Yank's keep the Confederates down (providing garrison forces against the resistance in CSA lands). He knows he can get everything the CSA was offering him ( a safety valve for discontent for people moving North). Further its got to be clear to him as it stands now. The USA can keep going without a problem. They have every justification to invade Mexico with his soldiers participation in the Ohio campaign.
So my prediction for in at the Death is that F-J see's the writing on the wall and declares war on the CSA. His forces not participating in any major battles but drawing off troops. At some point linking up with Abner Dowling somewhere in Chihuahua.
Oh and for the most part Mexican troops in the interior CSA bug out or get beat down upon. Pulling back to the new battle lines mostly intact largely due to the CSA shortage of manpwoer and the trouble that the red rebels are creating now that the Mexican forces arent there to even half heartedly help hold them down.
But nobody has mentioned Mexico. Francisco-Jose is a Hapsburg how cool would it be if he 'shocked the world with his ingratitude' and declared war on the CSA.
Part of his army is already on CS soil, he knows their short of men, material and well everythingelse, the writing is already on the wall of how the war is going to end its just a matter of when. I know he is supposed to be an Italy analog but I just dont see a Hapsburg not having the sense to switch sides for political advantage. I mean...their Hapsburgs its kind of what the Dynasty is famous for.
Southern Sonora and Chihuahua is a good possibility. Heck a chunk of Texas isnt even completly out of the question, with the precedent of Houston.
Not to mention the CSA is beat, France and England are looking to be beat. F-J needs someone to back him to prop him up and if he is helping the Yank's keep the Confederates down (providing garrison forces against the resistance in CSA lands). He knows he can get everything the CSA was offering him ( a safety valve for discontent for people moving North). Further its got to be clear to him as it stands now. The USA can keep going without a problem. They have every justification to invade Mexico with his soldiers participation in the Ohio campaign.
So my prediction for in at the Death is that F-J see's the writing on the wall and declares war on the CSA. His forces not participating in any major battles but drawing off troops. At some point linking up with Abner Dowling somewhere in Chihuahua.
Oh and for the most part Mexican troops in the interior CSA bug out or get beat down upon. Pulling back to the new battle lines mostly intact largely due to the CSA shortage of manpwoer and the trouble that the red rebels are creating now that the Mexican forces arent there to even half heartedly help hold them down.
Now that would be interesting to see. Featherston has bullied him for men at the threat of supporting civil war and taking the low-wage jobs away.....
Not bad, TyrannusZero. But to invade Andorra, the US would have to go through France or Spain. Which would they do? Attack from the Basque areas to the north or the Catalan areas from the South? Actually, you could branch off this and write an alternate history of the Spanish-American War with the US invading Spain itself? Or maybe as revenge for colonial rule have the Latin-American nations join with the US in invading Spain? You may have started something...........
The USA does occupy parts of Baja California at the moment. I wonder if that is to prevent such a scenario from happening. I guess I'll have to wait until next year to find out.
No, it won't happen at all. Jake Featherston can't even find enough men to hold off a division and a half-strength U.S. army in Texas, had to close the Virginian front so he could use the Army of Northern Virginia in Tennessee-Georgia just to bring C.S. strength in the Western Theater closer -- not close, but closer -- to Morrell's strength, is having his fronts in the peripheral campaigns suffer, and now he's going to occupy Mexico? Reinforcing Whitlow Ling in Texas just to buy time for Pinkard to shut down Camp Determination and hide the evidence was insane enough when the war was being lost in front of Atlanta, but he hasn't shipped any men over to Cuba to put down a biracial rebellion that would be considered an affrontery to the Confederacy's raison d'etre, or not that we've heard, anyway. If Mexico goes, Jake will just have to cuss profanely and mutter to himself, "Got to pay them back later, when we're done settling accounts with the damnyankees."
The US did that to halt C.S ships from going into the Pacific.
I can see Mexico switching sides at the last moment, maybe "retake" their lands. After all the Confederate states like Sonora have a better infastructure, then most of Mexico. Atleast by how people refer to Mexico in the books.
Cuba may become independent, that little Fidel boy giving a hand.
I however do not see the CSA wiped off the map. It would take too much manpower to hold the region down. Maybe a small and well equipped Black state, I am thinking Kentucky here, for it is close to the trouble areas in the East, and has a population that has a generation under Yankee rule.
Featherston will keep firing off rockets, and maybe add gas to them, maybe not.
Very possible. Didn't Italy switch sides in WWI? It would definetly be in their self-interest.
The CSA has no way to stop it. So I'd say this is inevitable. It will not be occupied the USA, just independent.
The US occupied the South after the OTL American Civil War. Assuming an independent Cuba, that means the US will have to occupy Kentucky, Utah, Sonora, and Chihuahua as well, however the latter three wouldn't be very populated. Especially Utah which, with frequent conflict and the inevitable exile of the Mormons, will have a much smaller population than the OTL half-million in 1940. The remaining Blacks could also be used in the occupation.
In addition, we occuppied Japan, South Korea, and West Germany after WWII. All three represented quite a bit of population and land area to be occupied.
In each case, there was a large scale occupation by USA forces. Sure, the US has a lower population in this ATL, but the point is the US has successfully done very large scale occupations before. I don't see why it won't be possible now, particularly with the the shortage of fighting age males the CSA will inevitably have by the time this is done.
So my conclusion, bye bye CSA. The book will be called "In the Death" afterall. I don't think Turtledove is talking about good ol' Mexico here. That, and the CSA has been a constant threat and even launched a surprise attack after the USA allowed plebicites for states to join the CSA. After WWII, the USA AND USSR wanted to reduce Germany to an agrarian nation so it would never be a threat again. I think the attitude will be the same here, but will be accomplished by abolishing the CSA.
The USA would need some ASBs smoking the Mary Jane cigarettes for that to happen. For the Andorra invasion, the USA just drops paratroopers onto that odious nation.
I wish he was talking about Mexico. They need some good news or good events to go their way after being the CSA's little brother and extra slave labor pool....a man can dream, a man can dream though....
Kaptin Kurk
Banned
I just don't see how the US will be able to keep control of the South in the end, seeing as how they've had time to develop a distinctive nationality. Re-unification under these situations seems just about impossible, and holding it down military seems out of the question too, seeing as how the 'fifth' column (blacks) will have been decimated and was never likely to be really supported as booots on the necks anyways.
I could see the South Becoming something of a Vietnam Analouge by the 60s....
I could see the South Becoming something of a Vietnam Analouge by the 60s....
Faeelin
Banned
Call it a North American Union, make a nice flag, and then persuade the Confederates that only by viewing themselves as Americans, and not as Confederates, can the continent develop.
They may take some hits, but the USA will dish it out harder. This is different than Vietnam. The CSA attacked first and came close to ruining the USA and has been a dangerous neighbor to them for 80 years. We know the federal government won't allow that to happen this time. Thus why Kentucky, Tennessee and West Texas are all under military rule until further notice as what looks like a first phase of occupation. There will be an occupation, let's hope the USA is feeling generous.
I could definetly see there being another civil war. As for it being like the Spanish Civil War, I'm not sure what foreign nation would supply/support the current regime. In Spain, you had France, Britain, and individual Americans backing the Republicans, et al and the Catholic Church, Italy, and Germany supporting Franco, et al. In this case, the CSA will not be a factor. And all the European countries will have bigger things to worry about. As it is, I see the USA supporting an uprising or possibly having a bombing campaign if the Mexicans don't bend over backwards after the war. The USA is going to win the war and win big. Mexico will be in a very akward position especially given that they put troops on USA soil. Whether there is a civil war or not, it's safe to say that prospects for Mexico: BAD.
Freedom Party people fleeing to S. America after the war? You betcha.