Union and Liberty: An American TL

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Also, a few vague ideas I've had.

-Maybe Andrew Sullivan could become a British nationalist composer ITTL and write a new British national anthem.
-I found out Sun Yat-Sen lived in Hawaii for a time in the 1870s with his brother. I've got it in my head that he stays in Hawaii and does something, but I'm not sure what. Father of a Hawaiian Republic maybe? :D
-Still trying to decide what to do with the Papal Schism. The Mexican papacy will probably want to expand its base in Ibero-America, but would that mean adopting a sort of liberation theology? It seems like that would go against the conservatism that led to the schism in the first place.

1. ) The name wasn't familiar to me so I looked it up on Wikipedia. I'm not sure I got the right page. Are you talking about the blogger?

2.) Yes. Yes. Yes. One thousand times, yes.

3.) It does seem like adopting liberation theology would go against the conservatism that caused the schism. Without it, though, it'll struggle to survive. It doesn't have much appeal outside of its base.

I could see the Pope in Rome calling a major Church Council to solve the problem and update theology. The turn of the century would be the perfect time to do it too, lots of symbolism. Given the Catholic Church's liberalism in this timeline, it isn't out of the question that they would grant them an autonomous, self-governing status, similar to Eastern Rite.

Something similar to the Lateran Treaty would probably be needed to appease the Temporalist Church. Would Italy be willing to cede Lateran City?
 
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Looks like I won't get the update done until tomorrow. Today just flew by. But the good news is next week is Spring Break so I should have lots of time. :D

Awesome! Looking forward to it. Any thoughts on the brief paragraph on the status of blacks in TTL?
What you said on blacks ITTL makes sense. I forgot about the regressive effect the Silver Depression would have. I'll probably have the treatment of blacks be a lot more dependent on area. The Gulf Coast and Cuba are probably going to be the best places for blacks in the South and as you said, black cultural centers will have already formed in the bigger cities. The rural Upper South and particularly Chickasaw will probably be the worst. I single out Chickasaw since they were created as a secession from Kentucky and Tennessee and will have a lot of black migration to Memphis as the Mississippi River area begins to develop.

1. ) The name wasn't familiar to me so I looked it up on Wikipedia. I'm not sure I got the right page. Are you talking about the blogger?
Oops, that was a typo. I meant Arthur Sullivan of Gilbert and Sullivan. :eek:

This is cool but why would Sun Yat-Sen bother with an archipelago in the middle of the Pacific where any activity will bring the wrath of Japan, Britain, and California. I say he returns to China and raises havok there, where he can attain more glory.
I read a bit more into Sun Yat-Sen's time in Hawaii. He went there at age 13 in 1878 for schooling and excelled, but was sent back to China five years later after only a semester of college since his brother was concerned he would convert to Christianity. Maybe for whatever reason his brother doesn't send him back.

Also, I found this Certificate of Hawaiian Birth for Sun Yat-Sen which will be going in the Things That Look Like AH thread in a moment. :D
 
I haven't quite finished the TL, but I gotta say it is absolutely one of the best, it's been an awesome read! I look forward to more. :)

I hope you don't mind, I made a map of TTL at the turn of the century, complete with many of the internal developments within the US, India, etc. that you have posted in separate maps. It's probably riddled with mistakes, but I hope you like it.

[EDIT] Fixed some of the mistakes pointed out by jycee.

UnionandLiberty1900v2.png
 
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I hope you don't mind, I made a map of TTL at the turn of the century, complete with many of the internal developments within the US, India, etc. that you have posted in separate maps. It's probably riddled with mistakes, but I hope you like it.

Awesome map, it certainly illustrates wilcox's TL The only mistakes I could spot is that Corea is larger in TTL it took a good chunk off Manchuria as well as Taiwan during the Sino-Corean War.

Ad also Austria and Moravia are now within Germany, not independent.

As far as South East Asia we haven't gotten to that update so it is hard to know.
 
Awesome map, it certainly illustrates wilcox's TL The only mistakes I could spot is that Corea is larger in TTL it took a good chunk off Manchuria as well as Taiwan during the Sino-Corean War.

Ad also Austria and Moravia are now within Germany, not independent.

As far as South East Asia we haven't gotten to that update so it is hard to know.

Ah thanks for pointing those out jycee, fixed em'! :)
 
The World in a New Century, Section XIV: Indochina
I decided to make this update a bit shorter and include the East Indies with the update on Australia and New Zealand, since I'm not sure how much detail I'm going to go into on Australasia in the overview. Also ITTL, Indochina refers to the whole of Southeast Asia.

The World in a New Century, Section XIV: Indochina
Published by the McNally Corporation in Chicago, 1901.

Burma and Siam:
While the Indian subcontinent has been thoroughly brought under British colonial control, British expansion into southeast Asia has met much more resistance. The Burmese, a naturally warlike people, have been able to resist futher British influence. Burma has been able to resist incursons by the British largely thanks to the difficult terrain that the jungle and mountains of the country poses to foreign invaders. Burma under kings Mindon and Kaunang[1] also launched a series of reforms to modernize the Burmese military. These reforms led Burma to prevent Great Britain from taking any more Burmese territory in the last century. However, the army is the only thing in the country that has had reforms. In other areas, Burma remains as backward as most other Asian countries.

The neighboring country of Siam is, like Burma, a Buddhist monarchy. However, unlike Burma, Siam has not been able to resist the incursions of British influence into the region. After the loss of the Anglo-Siamese War that ceded the remainder of the Malay Peninsula to the British, the kingdom of Siam under Rama V went into an isolationist period[2]. However, the British have forced further concessions from Siam that have increased the British influence on the Siamese government, and the country has had uprisings by the people in the junges in the north of the country. At the turn of the century, Siam has become a mere puppet of the British Empire.


Belgian Indochina and British Malaya:
Burma and Siam are the only independent nations in southeast Asia. Along with these countries, Belgium and Great Britain have also established large colonies in the region. Belgian Indochina, along with Borneo, form the core of Belgium's colonial possessions. Belgian Indochina is divided into six different administrative units, each led by representatives appointed by the Belgian government as well as local tribal chiefs. While the Belgians have only entered Indochina in the past few decades, the economic productivity of the colony has quickly surpassed that of Borneo, likely owing to the larger number of people in Indochina and the richer agricultural productivity of the land.

However, the wealthiest colony in the East Indies is the British colony of Malaya. Separate from the British East India Company, the British have kept a royal colonial presence in the Malay Peninsula for almost two centuries. The Straits Settlements, the oldest British possessions on the peninsula, remain the most important centers in the Malaya colony. Much of the wealth of the Malay colonies comes from the trade through the Malacca Straits and cities such as Penang and Singapore, as goods traveling by sea east from British India or west from Japan, China, and the Indies must pass through the straits. Like Gibraltar, the Malacca Straits are yet another strategic point that Great Britain is able to control because of the empire's naval superiority on the oceans[3]. However, with plans for a canal through Central America, the importance of the Malacca Straits may lessen in the future.

[1] Mindon's brother who in OTL was killed in 1866 during an attempted coup. He is remembered as a great modernizer in Burma.
[2] In TTL Chulalongkorn is raised in the wake of the Anglo-Siamese War so doesn't get a western education and bows to the conservatives.
[3] France's naval superiority is still mostly confined to the Mediterranean.
 
Great update, Wilcoxchar! It's interesting to see Thailand and Burma undergoing fates so different from those of OTL. Thailand in particular is interesting; I could see it launching an aggressive war against the Burmese (their traditional enemy) with British help at some point, if Burma ever causes problems for British India. You might want to talk to Xnyrax about that; he knows tons about SE Asia during this time period.

Does British Malaya include territory on Borneo as OTL? Or is it just the Malay peninsula?

I can't see Burma remaining independent for long, sandwiched between the British Empire like that.

I think they stand a fair shot at retaining nominal independence, especially if they've lasted this long. On the other hand, they may well be reduced to a British puppet by some future war.

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
I think they stand a fair shot at retaining nominal independence, especially if they've lasted this long. On the other hand, they may well be reduced to a British puppet by some future war.
Maintaining actual independence would be as unlikely as it is interesting.
 
Maintaining actual independence would be as unlikely as it is interesting.

That is why it is likely only to be "nominal", they will likely end up as a puppet/protectorate but not a colony. Same goes for Siam.

I am more impressed with Belgium being able to hold on so much area as it has; Borneo's population is le o it makes sense. But the rest of its colonies would be much harder to maintain. Especially since in TTL, Belgium is much smaller and got screwed badly in the European Wars. If it is holding on to anything it is likely doing it with lots of British help, to avoid France from making any claims.
 
Good update, Wilcox!:)
Interesting development in Southeast Asia. This should mean similar catholic missionary efforts in Indochina, if not more than OTL.
I haven't quite finished the TL, but I gotta say it is absolutely one of the best, it's been an awesome read! I look forward to more. :)

I hope you don't mind, I made a map of TTL at the turn of the century, complete with many of the internal developments within the US, India, etc. that you have posted in separate maps. It's probably riddled with mistakes, but I hope you like it.

[EDIT] Fixed some of the mistakes pointed out by jycee.
Nice map, Arkhangelsk!:)
 
That is why it is likely only to be "nominal", they will likely end up as a puppet/protectorate but not a colony. Same goes for Siam.

I am more impressed with Belgium being able to hold on so much area as it has; Borneo's population is le o it makes sense. But the rest of its colonies would be much harder to maintain. Especially since in TTL, Belgium is much smaller and got screwed badly in the European Wars. If it is holding on to anything it is likely doing it with lots of British help, to avoid France from making any claims.

Agreeing with that, France already has a good sized chunk of Africa. Gaining colonies in Asia could give them a shot at Siam, which could become a French protectorate, just to keep the British out.
 
Why does the current map of Europe show Bornholm as German-controlled territory?
I know that Prussia occupied the island during the last major European war but there was no mention of Bornholm being annexed by the German Empire.
 
I haven't quite finished the TL, but I gotta say it is absolutely one of the best, it's been an awesome read! I look forward to more. :)

I hope you don't mind, I made a map of TTL at the turn of the century, complete with many of the internal developments within the US, India, etc. that you have posted in separate maps. It's probably riddled with mistakes, but I hope you like it.

[EDIT] Fixed some of the mistakes pointed out by jycee.

I've always liked the concept of California being independent.......too bad Russia still has Alaska, though......maybe *Canada(BNA) can get it someday? :(
 
Why not? Also, will there be any World War?

Wilcox has hinted that a world war will be comming soon.

Why the US should not annex California? Because that's would lead to the very common Ameri-wank scenario; and because the independent multi-ethnic, country-club democracy California of TTL is one of those oddities that make this TL not just a great TL but also good literature with good characters.

As things are it I much more likely for the US to annex New Caledonia and Deseret (Manitoba) than Cali. However, Wilcox has also hinted that the US and Cali will end up in opposite sides of the great war. Full annexation seems unlikely, especially since Cali has enjoyed 70 years of independence, but eating out a few good chucks is possible.
 
Wilcox has hinted that a world war will be comming soon.

Why the US should not annex California? Because that's would lead to the very common Ameri-wank scenario; and because the independent multi-ethnic, country-club democracy California of TTL is one of those oddities that make this TL not just a great TL but also good literature with good characters.

As things are it I much more likely for the US to annex New Caledonia and Deseret (Manitoba) than Cali. However, Wilcox has also hinted that the US and Cali will end up in opposite sides of the great war. Full annexation seems unlikely, especially since Cali has enjoyed 70 years of independence, but eating out a few good chucks is possible.

In that case, sorry for what I just said. Also, I have been wondering what are the factions of the World War?
 
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