Union and Liberty: An American TL
- Thread starter wilcoxchar
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Thank you so much, if I could get a pic of one of my Duesenberg posters, I'll put it up. I loved those cars, and touring through their museum is great.
Yay, 2000 posts!
And for Indiana carmakers, how can I forget Studebaker. Reading about them, they're actually probably the most plausible of the OTL carmakers to show up since the company was a wagon and carriage manufacturer since the 1850s.
And for Indiana carmakers, how can I forget Studebaker. Reading about them, they're actually probably the most plausible of the OTL carmakers to show up since the company was a wagon and carriage manufacturer since the 1850s.
Perhaps, despite the BIEC keeping control of India some of the princely states have used their autonomy to grow some basic industry, while keeping the majority of the continent still underdeveloped. I feel this can also result in growing rivalries between the princely states if what you want is a fractured India.
It being part of Malaya probably makes more sense as Britain is likely focusing more India, and the East since it was blocked out of Africa for the most part. Maybe have Britain eat some while keeping and independent core (but not sure if this is plausible).
Will do.Looking at some of the OTL early carmakers, I'm thinking of having Duesenberg and Stutz survive past the 30s to keep auto manufacturing in Indiana.
Keep a few from OTL, but you can also always make up some for TTL. Don't see why alternate industrialist might invest in the automotive industry. I reckon if Indiana does keep the industry then the Ohio river will likely get quite a bit more industrialized in TTL. Probably a thin urban sliver will follow most of its course till it joins the Confluence megalopolis. And in turn south-eastern Michigan might remain less industrialized. (Although it is very practical location for it).
Hello and welcome to the AH.com forums! Perhaps we may see a Republic of Bharat eventually?
IT LIVES!
Sorry about the lack of updates the past few weeks, school's been getting in the away and I lost momentum on working on the updates. But now it's back and I'll have the next update done tomorrow!
Sorry about the lack of updates the past few weeks, school's been getting in the away and I lost momentum on working on the updates. But now it's back and I'll have the next update done tomorrow!
The World in a New Century, Section XIII: Eastern Asia
Update time! I'm trying to balance more historical development and current overview in this update.
The World in a New Century, Section XIII: Eastern Asia
Published by the McNally Corporation in Chicago, 1901.
China:
The Chinese Empire is the largest nation in the world today and covers much of the eastern half of the Asian continent. Like the United States, the geography of China is very diverse. While China covers such a large area, it has been held back from becoming more successful for several reasons. China's population, like much of the rest of Asia, is uneducated and largely made up of peasants. The government itself has also held back the development of the nation. For centuries China has kept up a policy of isolation from the Western world. This has only changed in the last century, when the Western powers forced the Chinese to open up their country to trade with Europe.
More recently, the Chinese government has faced increasing difficulties from both inside and outside the country. Throughout the century, China has had to deal with numerous uprisings by its Mohammedan population. In 1879, a great flood of the Yang-tze River, the major river that runs through the center of the country, decimated the region around the city of Jiangning[1] and is estimated to have led to the deaths of over 200,000 people. Fourteen years later in 1893, the northern regions of the country faced a very cold winter and a flood of the Yellow River the following spring. These have been recorded as some of the worst natural disasters of the past century. Additionally, the growing influence of Russia in the far northern reaches of China and the recent defeat by the French and Coreans has further damaged the stability of the Chinese government.
As part of the opening of China to trade in the past decades, the great powers have gained concessions in territory and trade from the Qing to finally break the country's isolation and allow trade with the rest of the world. Corea, France, the United Kingdom, and Portugal have possessions along the Chinese coast that Chinese citizens are allowed to trade in. Additionally, the cities of Shanghai, Canton, Hangzhou, Weihai, Tsingtao, and Tianjin have been opened to foreign traders and companies within their city limits.
Japan and Corea:
The two most modernized countries in eastern Asia are Japan and Corea. With the help of the British and French, these two countries have lifted their societies into the modern world and have established small manufacturing and urban sectors. After Great Britain opened up relations with Japan in 1861, the Japanese began to build up their industry, but still remained locked in the feudalistic system of the Shogunate. However, in the 1880s, a revolution assisted by the British restored some powers to the emperor[2]. However, the shogun, Tokugawa Yoshinobu, has still retained much influence for the past thirty years. In the past decade, Japan has begun expanding outside its home islands and has arranged treaties to acquire the Bonin island chain and Saito Island[3].
Meanwhile, Corea has taken a quicker and more radical approach to modernization. While Corea has also kept its monarchy, the government has allowed more western advisers from France and other powers to modernize the country. With the help of the French, Corea renounced their vassalage to China in 1885 and defeated the Qing, fully establishing themselves as an independent country. Since then, the Corean Empire[4] has been vigorously building up its industry using the large coal reserves in the peninsula. The Coreans have quickly become a regional power in eastern Asia, though they are still leagues behind the great powers of Europe in influence.
[1] Qing era name for Nanjing.
[2] Less drastic than the OTL Meiji Restoration.
[3] OTL Marcus Island.
[4] Korea was declared an empire by Gojong in 1890 after the victory in the Sino-Korean War.
The World in a New Century, Section XIII: Eastern Asia
Published by the McNally Corporation in Chicago, 1901.
China:
The Chinese Empire is the largest nation in the world today and covers much of the eastern half of the Asian continent. Like the United States, the geography of China is very diverse. While China covers such a large area, it has been held back from becoming more successful for several reasons. China's population, like much of the rest of Asia, is uneducated and largely made up of peasants. The government itself has also held back the development of the nation. For centuries China has kept up a policy of isolation from the Western world. This has only changed in the last century, when the Western powers forced the Chinese to open up their country to trade with Europe.
More recently, the Chinese government has faced increasing difficulties from both inside and outside the country. Throughout the century, China has had to deal with numerous uprisings by its Mohammedan population. In 1879, a great flood of the Yang-tze River, the major river that runs through the center of the country, decimated the region around the city of Jiangning[1] and is estimated to have led to the deaths of over 200,000 people. Fourteen years later in 1893, the northern regions of the country faced a very cold winter and a flood of the Yellow River the following spring. These have been recorded as some of the worst natural disasters of the past century. Additionally, the growing influence of Russia in the far northern reaches of China and the recent defeat by the French and Coreans has further damaged the stability of the Chinese government.
As part of the opening of China to trade in the past decades, the great powers have gained concessions in territory and trade from the Qing to finally break the country's isolation and allow trade with the rest of the world. Corea, France, the United Kingdom, and Portugal have possessions along the Chinese coast that Chinese citizens are allowed to trade in. Additionally, the cities of Shanghai, Canton, Hangzhou, Weihai, Tsingtao, and Tianjin have been opened to foreign traders and companies within their city limits.
Japan and Corea:
The two most modernized countries in eastern Asia are Japan and Corea. With the help of the British and French, these two countries have lifted their societies into the modern world and have established small manufacturing and urban sectors. After Great Britain opened up relations with Japan in 1861, the Japanese began to build up their industry, but still remained locked in the feudalistic system of the Shogunate. However, in the 1880s, a revolution assisted by the British restored some powers to the emperor[2]. However, the shogun, Tokugawa Yoshinobu, has still retained much influence for the past thirty years. In the past decade, Japan has begun expanding outside its home islands and has arranged treaties to acquire the Bonin island chain and Saito Island[3].
Meanwhile, Corea has taken a quicker and more radical approach to modernization. While Corea has also kept its monarchy, the government has allowed more western advisers from France and other powers to modernize the country. With the help of the French, Corea renounced their vassalage to China in 1885 and defeated the Qing, fully establishing themselves as an independent country. Since then, the Corean Empire[4] has been vigorously building up its industry using the large coal reserves in the peninsula. The Coreans have quickly become a regional power in eastern Asia, though they are still leagues behind the great powers of Europe in influence.
[1] Qing era name for Nanjing.
[2] Less drastic than the OTL Meiji Restoration.
[3] OTL Marcus Island.
[4] Korea was declared an empire by Gojong in 1890 after the victory in the Sino-Korean War.
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Nice! Speaking of China, I'm still having trouble with my TL, Stars & Stripes.....wanna give me some pointers? Send me a PM if you can help(and if you want a link to S & S).
Awesome Wilcox! Glad to see it going once again.
You did quite a good job balancing some history into the update besides just info. Things aren't looking good for China, the Sino-Korean war update also suggested that Xinjian will break off from China, depending on how things go for Russia could it be that we will see an independent greater Turkestan?
Korea's getting this head start in development will certainly be interesting. Though with Japan allied to Britain, China probably not too friendly after the Sino-Korean War, and Russia likely eyeing the Korean Manchuria and Haishenwai (Vladivostock) things might get seriously difficult for Korea.
(Wilcox just to get some discussion starting would it be cool to post some thoughts on how US culture is developing in TTL? Or do you have a specific plan for this. I'm thinking civil rights, identity etc just a few thoughts on it).
Keep up the good work man.
You did quite a good job balancing some history into the update besides just info. Things aren't looking good for China, the Sino-Korean war update also suggested that Xinjian will break off from China, depending on how things go for Russia could it be that we will see an independent greater Turkestan?
Korea's getting this head start in development will certainly be interesting. Though with Japan allied to Britain, China probably not too friendly after the Sino-Korean War, and Russia likely eyeing the Korean Manchuria and Haishenwai (Vladivostock) things might get seriously difficult for Korea.
(Wilcox just to get some discussion starting would it be cool to post some thoughts on how US culture is developing in TTL? Or do you have a specific plan for this. I'm thinking civil rights, identity etc just a few thoughts on it).
Keep up the good work man.
Interesting post on East Asia at the turn of the century. A few questions and comments:
-My sense was that before the late 19th or early 20th century, it was common to see "Korea" spelled "Corea" in english, and that the change to K- was related to the Japanese occupation or involvement. I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to see Corea used more commonly than Korea in a TL where they became more powerful before the last quarter of the 19th century.
-Was the Taiping Rebellion put down before it had a chance to flourish, or were there other cultural or alt-historical factors in limiting its surge at the end of the century? If it was too long ago to mention, what of the more recent Boxer rebellion? Or are they simply not being commented upon here, or the author doesn't find them worth mentioning?
-similarly, what accounts for the greater role played by islamic unrest in TTL?
-Also, with those changes to the Chinese state, what is the nature of its internal politics? Is the Qing still intact, or is it cracking? Have they begun to institute the Self-Strengthening movement or the hundred days reforms? Is CiXi the sovereign, or were there changes to the monarchy? My sense is that with an earlier threat to Qing sovereignty by Koreans, there is more of an impetus for the kinds of changes that were carried out in the 1890s and 1900s OTL.
-My sense was that before the late 19th or early 20th century, it was common to see "Korea" spelled "Corea" in english, and that the change to K- was related to the Japanese occupation or involvement. I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to see Corea used more commonly than Korea in a TL where they became more powerful before the last quarter of the 19th century.
-Was the Taiping Rebellion put down before it had a chance to flourish, or were there other cultural or alt-historical factors in limiting its surge at the end of the century? If it was too long ago to mention, what of the more recent Boxer rebellion? Or are they simply not being commented upon here, or the author doesn't find them worth mentioning?
-similarly, what accounts for the greater role played by islamic unrest in TTL?
-Also, with those changes to the Chinese state, what is the nature of its internal politics? Is the Qing still intact, or is it cracking? Have they begun to institute the Self-Strengthening movement or the hundred days reforms? Is CiXi the sovereign, or were there changes to the monarchy? My sense is that with an earlier threat to Qing sovereignty by Koreans, there is more of an impetus for the kinds of changes that were carried out in the 1890s and 1900s OTL.
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I'm afraid I can't help you much there. My research on China for the update was primarily in the latter half of the 19th century and I don't know much about China around 1800.
Sort of. There is a monarchy and a constitution, but as far as a legislative body goes it's still very much made up of the aristocracy. I'll admit that my knowledge of Japanese history and culture is sadly lacking, so any help on working out the details would be appreciated.Good update, Wilcox!
Japan is now a constitutional Monarchy, perhaps in a German Empire fashion.
Thanks. There might be an independent Turkestan at some point, but I haven't worked out how central Asia will develop over the next century yet. It could be that Dzungaria breaks of from China, or Russia expands then it breaks off from Russia, or that it joins a greater Turkestan at some point then breaks off from that. Not sure yet though, the ideas are still floating around in my head.
At this point Korea doesn't have much of a threat from Russia since they have to rely on passage through China for land access to Korea. The threat will mostly come from Japan and likely Britain in the region, and the lack of a French presence in East Asia.
Sure. I don't have much specifics decided for cultural development in the 20th century yet, so some discussion would be great. I especially could use people's thoughts on how civil rights would develop, not just nationally but regionally as well. I'm also trying to figure out how to encourage migration to the Saint Louis/Cairo/Memphis area.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the different spelling of Korea. I'll edit the update to include it.
The Taiping Rebellion never arises ITTL due to butterflies. I mostly have the increased Muslim unrest to account for the gradual loss of the Mandate of Heaven by the Qing. Anti-Manchu sentiment among the core Chinese areas is slowly growing but has not reached the point of open rebellion yet, since the opening of China to foreign trade was delayed.
The Self-Strenghtening Movement or its analogue has only just begun to be put in place as the foreign threats were delayed and have now occurred mostly at the same time as the Korean rebellion. I haven't worked out who is emperor yet and could use some suggestions for this. Overall though, the Qing are losing legitimacy, but the beginning of it has been pushed back and is now happening somewhat faster than in OTL. I'm thinking that the Qing will attempt more radical reforms that could succeed, but could also make the population more angry (maybe with a larger scale Boxer Rebellion soon?).
Also, a few vague ideas I've had.
-Maybe Andrew Sullivan could become a British nationalist composer ITTL and write a new British national anthem.
-I found out Sun Yat-Sen lived in Hawaii for a time in the 1870s with his brother. I've got it in my head that he stays in Hawaii and does something, but I'm not sure what. Father of a Hawaiian Republic maybe?
-Still trying to decide what to do with the Papal Schism. The Mexican papacy will probably want to expand its base in Ibero-America, but would that mean adopting a sort of liberation theology? It seems like that would go against the conservatism that led to the schism in the first place.
An independent Turkestan would be quite interesting especially in terms of the relationship between China, Russia, and Britain.
Well, the big question remaining to be answered is whether or not race relations, particularly the status of blacks, are better or worse off than in OTL, and by how much. So far Wilcox has said they are more-or-less as OTL, however as most things in TTL they would be neither better nor worse just different. Thus the real question is, how different?
There are two big changes that likely affected how blacks were treated during reconstruction, and afterwards in TTL: John C. Fremont being in power for the years following emancipation, while Abraham Lincoln led the Supreme Court, and the Democratic Party not being stigmatized thanks to the role of Andrew Johnson during the National War and that of loyal Southerners most notably Robert E. Lee (who even managed to become POTUS).
Because there were enough loyal Southerners to keep the Tejas, Houston and Tennessee in the Union it would make it much harder to justify any “the South was right”/”states rights” argument afterwards; even more so because the blame can be directly assigned at anyone who was ever involved with the Liberty Party. The war will likely always be seen as an insurrection by the slaveholding class. This probably made reconstruction much easier for the Fremont and Lee administrations than anything Lincoln or Grant ever had to deal with in OTL. And since slavery still exists in Brazil by 1900, it is likely many more high-up Confederates decided to leave the US after the war, probably due to Fremont’s most radical policies. Thus it can be easily argued that Reconstruction went much better in TTL than it went in OTL, at least until Lee’s death and Burnside’s administration.
However by the last decades of 19th century have likely taken a step back; the silver depression appears to have had much more lasting effects in TTL than in OTL; it brought the Democratic Party back to power, and ramped up populism enough to create a three party system, and flip the role of the Republicans. This must have certainly pulled the brake on any progress that was being made during the Fremont/Lee years. Did it go back enough to be like OTL? Probably not; it change certainly, but it didn’t fully regress.
Blacks, even if marginalized, have likely found a place for themselves in society, especially because TTL’s South, with Ibero immigration, and a milder Indian removal (especially in Florida for the Seminoles), is much more diverse than in OTL. By 1900 black-Americans have probably founded their own cultural centers in New Orleans and Cuba, akin to OTL’s Harlem. From here the Civil Right’s movement will be born.
Furthermore there has been a steady rise of the Catholic Church’s popularity alongside the Gulf Coast were Iberos and Blacks are likely becoming a mix-majority. And the Ibero notion of race (more about class than race) is starting to seep in. How whites in the Upper South will react to the Catholic Church’s rising influence will be quite interesting to see.
All in all it is likely that by 1900 the US is a bit ahead than OTL in terms of equality, and barring something as drastic as the Great Depression happening it should enjoy a steadier course through out the 20s and 30s. So what OTL saw in the 50s could easily happen in the early 30s. I’d even say that by TTL’s World War II / Pacific War equivalents the military will be desegregated; things should steadily improve for there. However, there is still an overall downside for this, class inequality in the US is likely higher in TTL than in OTL and with a greater urban population it might not improve. The transition from race division in society to class division will occur earlier. And if there hasn’t been enough progress in the race department, it could lead to stagnation in both departments.
Well the Taiping Rebellion screwed up China pretty badly, without it despite major unrest China might be doing somewhat better. Although the Sino-Korean war and unrest that has followed will likely make up for it in the near future.
With everything that has been going on in Britain, something tells me the British monarchy will not survive in TTL to present day. I see a labor revolution happening in the Islands quite soon.
-I found out Sun Yat-Sen lived in Hawaii for a time in the 1870s with his brother. I've got it in my head that he stays in Hawaii and does something, but I'm not sure what. Father of a Hawaiian Republic maybe?
This is cool but why would Sun Yat-Sen bother with an archipelago in the middle of the Pacific where any activity will bring the wrath of Japan, Britain, and California. I say he returns to China and raises havok there, where he can attain more glory.
I don't think the Papal-schism would do much further harm. The anti-papacy will likely stay as an odd element in the Mexican churches. It might be gaining some ground in the neighboring countries. But it might by now simply be a heretical Tlaxacalan thing.
I think the liberalization of the Church in Rome caused by the schism, and the weakening of its power, might have more interesting effects in Europe and the US. It is likely that this Papacy has been less critical of the Americanism heresy, and thus helped Catholics assimilate better in the US. And it might have spread with greater strength to France and Europe.
Awesome! Looking forward to it. Any thoughts on the brief paragraph on the status of blacks in TTL?
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