Renovation: An Eastern Roman Timeline

[GdwnsnHo]

That's only true in name.In fact,all of Northern Italy is de facto independent of the HRE.

100% true - but that defacto/dejure difference is vitally important - it means the HRE cannot declare a war on the basis of being the HRE. It is an island fortress geographically, logistically, and the best part : politically.

In fact, I can see it making whoever controls Venice (and the environs) a vital player in any future N.Italian wars. France invades and allies with Rhomania, Venice acts as a thorn in the side of the Austrians/Germans, vice versa - they provide an additional avenue of supply.

I'll stop - I think it is clear I've fallen in love with the idea

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Personally, I think it'd be a lovely twist of fate (and/or storytelling) for the Romans to have a trade quarter in Venice - and use it as one of their major trade hubs, specifically for trade in N.Italy, S.Germany, and the NW.Balkans - at least whilst they can't claim control of the Danube.

Doing this, and extending their protection to Venice could be worthwhile.

1) To preserve their artisans, they still have talent after all (in fact, I can't remember if the Arsenal has been built, but taking those designs across Rhomania is a grand idea)

2) Foothold in N.Italy. As far as I know Venice isn't under the rule of the HRE, one of the few places in N.Italy where that statement is true. Putting them under Roman protection, and later Roman rule - could have major benefits for Rome and Venice

3) For Venice - a Venetian-Roman trade relationship would be powerful - Venetian merchants under Roman colours would be able to revitalise Venice, and once considered Romans, have full access to the markets of the East.

In fact, such an arrangement would allow Venice to recover (maybe not as strong as they once were), but still maintain a strong reputation as a naval city, traders, and marines.

But I can't recall if there are any major reasons this would be an impossible long term solution.

That's only true in name.In fact,all of Northern Italy is de facto independent of the HRE.

100% true - but that defacto/dejure difference is vitally important - it means the HRE cannot declare a war on the basis of being the HRE. It is an island fortress geographically, logistically, and the best part : politically.

In fact, I can see it making whoever controls Venice (and the environs) a vital player in any future N.Italian wars. France invades and allies with Rhomania, Venice acts as a thorn in the side of the Austrians/Germans, vice versa - they provide an additional avenue of supply.

I'll stop - I think it is clear I've fallen in love with the idea

I love this idea too.

That said, though, how viable is it?

Also, John Julius Norwich said that Venetian people were remarkably long-lived; is this genetic? If so, that gene needs to be preserved.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Let's nominate this for a Turtledove!

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Not sure it ever will.It's now surrounded by big players with it's only advantage,trade,being completely taken away.Sure they will have some recovery,but I highly doubt it will ever be anything other than a regional power like the Grand Duchy of Tuscany from OTL for example.It's got very little actual territory after all,not incomparable to the ERE just before the final Siege of Constantinople.The good thing of course is that it is a part of the Catholic community and surrounded by Catholic states,unlike the ERE.

Got the nail on the head. Its worth noting that Venice here would have done some expansion and economic reorientation (all that manufacturing base isn't simply going to go away even after losing much of their income) to shift to local markets. Of course, there'd obviously be a brain drain

Personally, I think it'd be a lovely twist of fate (and/or storytelling) for the Romans to have a trade quarter in Venice - and use it as one of their major trade hubs, specifically for trade in N.Italy, S.Germany, and the NW.Balkans - at least whilst they can't claim control of the Danube.

That is so hilarious I need to find a way to work that in. Somehow.

Doing this, and extending their protection to Venice could be worthwhile.

I'm a bit eh, it seems still /too early/ to be talking about throwing their weight around and forming protectorates. Maybe in a generation or 3.

Interesting ideas

Worth considering. I'll need to see how the long term trends following the Alt Chioggia War would be first, and if its possible to fit this in.

100% true - but that defacto/dejure difference is vitally important - it means the HRE cannot declare a war on the basis of being the HRE. It is an island fortress geographically, logistically, and the best part : politically.

In fact, I can see it making whoever controls Venice (and the environs) a vital player in any future N.Italian wars. France invades and allies with Rhomania, Venice acts as a thorn in the side of the Austrians/Germans, vice versa - they provide an additional avenue of supply.

I'll stop - I think it is clear I've fallen in love with the idea

Well, one thing to note is that the HRE (or rather Bohemia and friends, since the HRE is functionally dead in many places) would have many challenges in attempting to enforce that role. Bohemia has no navy whatsoever and would be dependent on the goodwill of the Northern states to even try to push back the Venetians and control them.

 

[ZhugeLiang]

I'm a bit eh, it seems still /too early/ to be talking about throwing their weight around and forming protectorates. Maybe in a generation or 3.

For some reason, I thought this was particularly funny.

Anyways, I haven't commented before, but I'm just saying that this is a great timeline! Byzantium-wanks are always a plus.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

My first time commenting on this TL (though I've seen it before). Really great. Good job.

Also, I've seen a trend in most TLs - no matter how far back the POD, somehow, the non-European world is destined to not industrialize - unless there's the US or Canada. I don't often see a successful South America (or one at all, given how little people write about it), Africa, India, or East Asia.

I mean, somehow, it's always given that no other country can industrialize (or at least achieve great progress) without Western help. It would be really awesome if there was a modernized Ryuku Kingdom, tbh, and maybe a modernized Bahamas.

For some reason, I thought this was particularly funny.

Anyways, I haven't commented before, but I'm just saying that this is a great timeline! Byzantium-wanks are always a plus.

Umm, you have commented before.

 

[ZhugeLiang]

Umm, you have commented before.

Okay, I have terrible memory. VERY bad memory, in fact, since I can't even remember small details like this.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Okay, I have terrible memory. VERY bad memory, in fact, since I can't even remember small details like this.

Oh! It seems that the War of the Roses got butterflied away.

So, no Margaret of Anjou, no War of the Roses, no Tudors...by what method will England get a Queen Regnant in this timeline?

Edit: No, it doesn't have to have one. It would still be much desired, as well as an Empress Regnant for Byzies that isn't remembered as an incompetent.

 

[Tjakari]

I wonder if this could serve as justification for eating away at the imperial border.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Questions:

Has Lithuania converted to Christianity yet?

Also, what is the reason why Byzantine Empress Regnants were so bad at ruling unlike Queen Regnants elsewhere, and can that be corrected later on in Renovation?

 

[Avrorrange]

Questions:

Has Lithuania converted to Christianity yet?

Also, what is the reason why Byzantine Empress Regnants were so bad at ruling unlike Queen Regnants elsewhere, and can that be corrected later on in Renovation?

Was Irene particularly bad as empress?I don't think so.She got overthrown in the end,but she seems to be a lot more competent than a lot other emperors.The real incompetent empresses were Zoe and Theodora.If you saw Pulcheria as an actual Empress Regnant,then the whole thing gets thrown out of the window.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Questions:

Has Lithuania converted to Christianity yet?

Also, what is the reason why Byzantine Empress Regnants were so bad at ruling unlike Queen Regnants elsewhere, and can that be corrected later on in Renovation?

1) Yes.

2) Irene wasn't bad in my opinion. Probably just a string of bad fortune in the individuals. Theophano was Cersei, Zoe was a hot mess, etc.

Well perhaps. Its very likely that should a female ruler they can certainly be capable, but nothing's certain. As a writer, that'd be cool to add, but as someone trying to add a semblance of plausibility to this I have to be balanced in my writing and can't simply ascribe genius traits to a character because "why not?". All in all, probably if we get an outright female ruler.

Was Irene particularly bad as empress?I don't think so.She got overthrown in the end,but she seems to be a lot more competent than a lot other emperors.The real incompetent empresses were Zoe and Theodora.If you saw Pulcheria as an actual Empress Regnant,then the whole thing gets thrown out of the window.

I mean, Irene arguably kickstarted the whole revival of Byzantine Power in the Balkans and played a role in developing what we know as Orthodox Christianity, so its obvious she was a forward thinking woman who tried to improve the imperial position.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Was Irene particularly bad as empress?I don't think so.She got overthrown in the end,but she seems to be a lot more competent than a lot other emperors.The real incompetent empresses were Zoe and Theodora.If you saw Pulcheria as an actual Empress Regnant,then the whole thing gets thrown out of the window.

Well, Pulcheria was an awesome Empress, but I'm not sure I should include her as she wasn't quite a female king.

I mean, Irene arguably kickstarted the whole revival of Byzantine Power in the Balkans and played a role in developing what we know as Orthodox Christianity, so its obvious she was a forward thinking woman who tried to improve the imperial position.

More elaboration on this, if possible?

 

[Avrorrange]

Well, Pulcheria was an awesome Empress, but I'm not sure I should include her as she wasn't quite a female king.



More elaboration on this, if possible?

Pulcheria was made an Augusta by her brother,and pretty much ruled the empire on her brother's behalf.That role became even more public when she married her husband after her brother kicked the bucket.I don't think it is entirely correct to call her an Empress Consort.She was somewhere in the middle between a true Empress Regnant and an Empress Consort.Then again,wasn't that the same with Zoe and Theodora as well?Zoe had to get married and have her husband crowned emperor as well.The sister spent much of their reign co-ruling with Zoe's husband.

 

[Nagisaki]

Theophano was Cersei

This just made me laugh out loud, thanks for that, Sov.

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Pulcheria was made an Augusta by her brother,and pretty much ruled the empire on her brother's behalf.That role became even more public when she married her husband after her brother kicked the bucket.I don't think it is entirely correct to call her an Empress Consort.She was somewhere in the middle between a true Empress Regnant and an Empress Consort.Then again,wasn't that the same with Zoe and Theodora as well?Zoe had to get married and have her husband crowned emperor as well.The sister spent much of their reign co-ruling with Zoe's husband.

Ah, cool, and, yeah, Pulcheria was awesome, and as mentioned, Irene wasn't that bad.

Here's waiting for a Byzantine Female Ruler who is closer to them, then.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

This just made me laugh out loud, thanks for that, Sov.

I try.

Anyways, I'm gonna go a bit faster following this update in this timeline so as to see if I can move to the 1500s soon enough and wrap up in the 1600s.

Oh and my many, many thanks for being nominated for the Turtledoves. Really appreciate it, and if if ya'll could throw in a vote for Renovation that'd be absolutely excellent.

-----


Back in the Roman Empire, the narrative left of with a turning point in the recent war. Rome had called in her age old ally of Bulgaria in the defense of the motherland after being effectively cut in half from her Asian possessions. Bulgaria agreed, her leadership seeing an easy means to expand and further centralize the state’s power by use of the so called “Carolingian strategy”: extensive conquest of new lands and marshalling of the nobility to provide openings for central state authority to expand. The Roman-Bulgar armies were ultimately successful in their attempt to smash the Genoese troops and relieve the siege of Constantinople- at a heavy cost. Genoa had paid for the best, and they delivered. The comparatively small professional forces of Rome and Bulgaria, and whatever marshalled levies that had been available at the time suffered heavily in attempting to wrest control of Thrace.

While the line had been broken, this didn’t mean Genoa was out of the game. Being that the Genoese had naval supremacy, they were successful in bailing out a decent remainder of their troops engaged in Constantinople via the fleet. Upon reaching the safety of the water, troops were sent to any Genoese controlled islands, where the army could safely lick their wounds and re-organize, returning to the front lines when necessary… until news from back home reached. There, the Genoese started to scramble, and pull their troops and fleet back out to confront the Savoyards.

This gave the Romans some breathing room, but plenty of damage had been done already. Much of Thrace had been plundered; the coast was still under partial blockade; the coastal cities had also suffered raids from the Genoese navy and the Asian provinces were under invasion from the newest horde.

Yet fresh from their victory at Constantinople, imperial resolve had hardened. And with it, the tide was turning. The army had been able to levy emergency taxes from all sectors of the empire, including the church to fund the restoration of the navy and link up with the east. Furthermore, when news reached that the former emperor Constantine had been found dead amongst those at the siege, any of his would be support evaporated. The people, for better or for worse, were rallying under their new regime against the Genoese and any would be collaborator. In practice, this meant the factions that may have been supporting Constantine could no longer do so, and it became politically impossible not to give allegiance to the military junta in Constantinople. Constantine had seared his legacy as a traitor, and anyone who could be associated with him would be branded one as well.

In any case, the empire was firmly under one rule again. While this seems very nice, one must note this didn’t actually amount to anything initially. The realities of exhaustion and logistics set in, and it was necessary to plan before acting. Therefore, other than relaying messages to the eastern command, shipbuilding and rebuilding the army into a coherent force, not much was done in the aftermath of the 1412.

The East was a different story, of course. But the east has always been different. Despite being cut off from Constantinople, it chugged on satisfactorily, even in the face of the renewal of raids by Karaman forces. This was due in part in the ways Roman Asia had been set up. Learning from experience of the dark days of the Seljuq implosion, Roman Asia was allowed a greater amount of autonomy than other provinces, with a heavy emphasis on militia forces and settlement by yeoman farmers who could act as border guards until imperial forces could be deployed. The coastal cities and the fertile plains were of course, able to provide the state enough of a power base to support a rudimentary administration, and a healthy investment in fortifications never hurt anyone. All in all, the grand strategy was to make Anatolia hard to crack and able to take care of itself.

In the long term this might be a bad decision, where in which a rebellion from Anatolia might prove fatal to secession (along with generally being militarily stronger than the Balkan provinces), as of right now, this allowed the state to have a hands off approach when it came to dealing with cross border raids, an annoying yet inevitable reality following the influx of Turkmen tribes during the Mongol invasion of Anatolia.

Here in active wartime, this system had meant Anatolia was prepared for defense. Much like in the initial decades of the Arab expansion, raids were allowed into Roman territory. It was returning home that was the problem, as troops whittled down and harassed on the journey back home. Furthermore, the sheer amount of fortifications that needed to be taken, along with militia resistance, made the Karaman advance slow and painful. Do note, this did not mean the Romans could, (or wanted to for that matter) strike back into Anatolia. The army stationed in Anatolia at the time was under equipped [1] and her leaders too cautious to consider advancing until reinforcements arrived. Nor are militia forces good for offense. They might know their home terrain well, but not the enemy’s. Or be trained for that matter. Particularly against a largely light cavalry based army.

But that’s enough rambling.

Back to the matter at hand. That year the Romans did good, all things considered, and Genoa leaving allowed them to get the breather they needed. Of course, it also brought with it a split in the upper ranks on what to do: Should the Romans grow the navy once more, and drive the Italians out of their backyard in the Aegean? Or should they focus on the Turks and end the threat once and for all?

As befitting, they did both and accomplished less than expected.

 

[Avrorrange]

So the ERE is becoming like the United States in terms of the right to bear arms?

 

[Tjakari]

I feel a Myriokephalon coming, the Empires gonna lose a battle with minimal losses but stop their advance in its tracts and overreact to a ridiculous amount.

 

[idumea]

Great stuff sov