Fragments From A Dead Earth

I think I have the next update. For the moment, two questions for the group. First, how many bombing campaigns do you think the Germans could pull off on the mainland United States? I'm happy to keep it to New York, but it seems to me the Nazis have a toy they'll want to use. Second, how many of these intercontinental bombers being existent is feasible. I have a number in my head of how many I consider to exist, but it will effect the first question.

I also apologize for not having an update yet. I would rather it have not been two pages of discussion since then. However, these two questions are something I cannot shake from my head.
 
I think I have the next update. For the moment, two questions for the group. First, how many bombing campaigns do you think the Germans could pull off on the mainland United States? I'm happy to keep it to New York, but it seems to me the Nazis have a toy they'll want to use. Second, how many of these intercontinental bombers being existent is feasible. I have a number in my head of how many I consider to exist, but it will effect the first question.

I also apologize for not having an update yet. I would rather it have not been two pages of discussion since then. However, these two questions are something I cannot shake from my head.

First question
It's depends on success of Mission, how much was destroy and who many bomber return save to home
If Hitler is very satisfied from results, he order more American bombing raids.

On German Bomber fleet
The Third Reich was not so effective as the USA in War economy.
Mean like producing 12,700 B-17 or 3,979 B-29 Bombers.

From heavy bomber Heinkel He 177 were only 1,169 build. or 5,656 for Heinkel He 111 medium bomber.
But since Kriegsmarine needed a long-range maritime patrol and attack aircraft, they wanted also Me 264
That mean there could be around 1,200 Me 264
 
On German Bomber fleet
The Third Reich was not so effective as the USA in War economy.
Mean like producing 12,700 B-17 or 3,979 B-29 Bombers.

From heavy bomber Heinkel He 177 were only 1,169 build. or 5,656 for Heinkel He 111 medium bomber.
But since Kriegsmarine needed a long-range maritime patrol and attack aircraft, they wanted also Me 264
That mean there could be around 1,200 Me 264
Scaling from these, I'd guess that something of the order of 360 Amerika Bombers is plausible. With reasonable assumptions about loss rates (2%-10%) and attrition levels before becoming combat ineffective (20%-50%), anywhere from 4 to 34 large-scale raids seems reasonable. My guess would be about a dozen.
 
First question
It's depends on success of Mission, how much was destroy and who many bomber return save to home
If Hitler is very satisfied from results, he order more American bombing raids.

On German Bomber fleet
The Third Reich was not so effective as the USA in War economy.
Mean like producing 12,700 B-17 or 3,979 B-29 Bombers.

From heavy bomber Heinkel He 177 were only 1,169 build. or 5,656 for Heinkel He 111 medium bomber.
But since Kriegsmarine needed a long-range maritime patrol and attack aircraft, they wanted also Me 264
That mean there could be around 1,200 Me 264

I forgot a detail: deployment
Around 200 units will servis the Kriegsmarine for long-range maritime patrol
Most Me 264 will be at East front in action bombing Siberian industry into the Stone age, also the British industry on west front.
So 360 of Me 264 for Bomb raid to america would be realistic.
 
So 360 of Me 264 for Bomb raid to america would be realistic.
I'm actually thinking 360 total - but if the Fuhrer dictates that every last one of them raids America, then the U-Boats will have to fend for themselves and Soviet factories beyond the Urals are safe. Going off total weight and engine count, decent metrics for the era, 930 of them would replace 1,169 He 177s, which is a slightly more useful fleet size and allows multiple tasking.

Anything in that range is at least arguable, depending on national priorities and the state of the war.
 
I'm actually thinking 360 total - but if the Fuhrer dictates that every last one of them raids America, then the U-Boats will have to fend for themselves and Soviet factories beyond the Urals are safe. Going off total weight and engine count, decent metrics for the era, 930 of them would replace 1,169 He 177s, which is a slightly more useful fleet size and allows multiple tasking.

Anything in that range is at least arguable, depending on national priorities and the state of the war.

Better quit the He 177 program and focus on Me 264
why ?

Heavy Bomber He 177 had insane requirement for Dive bombing, what let to a two propellor design, each power by two engine with complex gear mechanism.
This "power system" engines made constant trouble, Crews nickname the He 177 as "Luftwaffe's lighter" or the "Flaming Coffin" do deathly accidents.
British and American pilot how flight the He 177 labeled it as unreliable, unsafe, dangerous to fly.

Heinkel try correct the Error by He 277 the four propellor version, some He 177 were converted to He 277 in beging 1944.
also design as extrem long range Bomber with 3,000 kg for range 11,100 km (for America bomb raid).
but in summer 1944 the project was terminated by Luftwaffe
 
Don't forget -- the first raid was a shocker. A really fast development of an effective detection and interceptor force would be priority one. For the Germans a long-range raid will always be little more than a propaganda tool. Once casualties mount, they will concentrate more on targets of higher payback. (If they were rational, but we're talking Nazis here, so...)
 
If there are even only say 100 Amerika-Bombers deployed for that purpose, if we assume they get through and get back every time, of course there might be thousands of raids. But first of all, while we don't want to get too bogged down technical hairsplitting, is it or is it not possible for one of these bombers to fly all the way to the US northeast coast and return from a base in say Brittany? The main reason I doubt it is that this sort of capability was what the USAAF was going for with the B-36, and yet that mighty bomber never did become operational before the end of the war. Even the B-29 was sort of an interim patch job--and could a B-29 based in Philadelphia, or even Loring, Maine, reach Brittany and return?

Staging through the Azores, I have little doubt the Germans could make planes that could do the round trip. But staging through the Azores, if we even grant they could do it once, is a one-time stunt. If they rushed they might get a few more sorties in, before the RN and USN converged on the islands and at the very least neutralized them by shooting down planes of this type--more likely, the Allies would have the power to spare to take them completely, especially because the Germans, who might perhaps get away with using them covertly, could never reinforce them with troops and defenses without tipping their hand and triggering a belated preemptive invasion by the Allies. They cannot be strongly defended; Portugal does not have the means to do so. And anyway Salazar's only prayer of avoiding blockade and being deposed at the least once the Allies win is convincingly pleading ignorance. He can't fortify the Azores even if Hitler gave him all the men and material to do so on a silver platter.

So if the shorter range from there is key, then it can only unlock the door a few times before the Allies change the locks.

Now then, if the Germans are forced to stage out of their continental holdings instead, bases in Brittany are the best of a bad lot, and I am very skeptical they can make planes that can deliver a serious bomb load and then make it all the way back to France. This means that each and every Amerika-bomber made and sent on that mission can only do it once, then a relatively short flight east to a waiting U-boat to save the crew (perhaps, parachuting into the Atlantic is pretty dicey). So if the Germans make 500 and use them all for this mission, that's a grand total of 500 bomb loads.

If that is the Americans never actually do anything about developing an interception system. I suppose OTL our continental defenses were a joke, because we darn well knew if we couldn't build an intercontinental bomber yet, neither could Hitler or Tojo. And anyone more thoughtful, who might question the premise that Yankee aviation was automatically at the very cutting edge and would not be surpassed in any way by any foriegners, would either be mocked and derided for lack of patriotic confidence--or taken quietly aside by other thoughtful people, who would point out as I mentioned above, that the Zeppelin raids were in themselves pathetic, but they forced the British to spend a lot of resources and men on air defenses, diverted from the battlefields of the Front. And that the London Blitz hardly brought the British Empire or even just England to her knees, nor for that matter were current British and American bomber raids looking to knock the Reich out of the war any time soon. So, if by some amazing demonstration of Teutonic technical prowess (or some stunt like aerial refueling--which would not be plausible to accomplish at this stage by the way) the Jerries did manage to put a flight of bombs over US cities--well, surely we aren't less capable of taking it than the British were, are we? So risking no air defense to speak of is a good way to focus what resources we could assemble first on the battlefield and toward victory sooner--and the sooner we win, the less possible a German air raid is.

But I would think that with the success of the first strike, that cold-blooded reasoning, that it is more cost-effective to endure bombing than it is to develop interception capabilities, would be quite silenced--indeed it always was silent, I don't know of any leader or speaker who ever said, folks, we are just going to take our chances here and see if Jerry wants to exhaust himself trying to blow up our cities long-distance. No one said that, no one ever would. Quietly meaning it would also not be tolerated however. Certainly not if a second bombing strike made it too...

After that, the President has to be seen doing something apparently effective to protect American lives. If the new Pentagon is willing to be brutally frank among themselves that a proper defense would cost too much, they still have to at least look like they are beefing up a serious defense, and politically speaking I don't think they'd dare do less than try for it properly. And although it would set back victory the USA can afford it. It would take time to deploy all the hardware and train up the radar teams and artillerymen and so on, but then again a lot of the hardware and troops were being developed for such duties in Europe or the Pacific anyway; someone might suggest it is good training before they deploy and a good place to rotate long-time deployed troops overseas back Stateside for their relief duty. This is the USA just as the WWII war machine was hitting its stride, and with substantial parts of the economy still held in reserve at that but convertible; for the sake of home defense you bet the home front will accept somewhat more austerity! The resources are there. Insofar as interceptors and AA can only have limited success in stopping the bombers from getting through, the defense will be a laboratory for improving those odds, and applying lessons learned overseas to further enhance Allied air superiority.

A lot of the German bombers then will either be shot down before crossing the shoreline, or diverted from their targets, or have their bomb runs spoiled, and then more of them will be shot down before their crews can ditch for recovery. And of course the Americans will figure that if these Jerries are not Kamikazes, there have to be U-boats out there to retrieve them, and they will doggedly follow the planes they can't actually shoot down to find these subs and take them out.

Really, if Hitler is serious, he needs either to somehow or other bring over thousands of Japanese Kamikaze pilots--not just pilots but entire flight crews of them--or else persuade his own Aryan darlings to accept an actual, no way out, suicide mission. And redesign the planes to take maximum advantage--no fuel reserves for a flight home, no bombardier--just sufficient flight crew to get the plane there and then for the pilot to simply find his target and dive the whole plane down into it, with said plane loaded to the gunwales with high explosive.

Such suicide missions might indeed not only expand the warload but make that warload count. I suspect that evading interception is much easier when the whole plane is the bomb and there don't need to be level bomb runs; it can come in jinking and make the Yankees guess what its actual target might be, and a damaged plane can divert to a target of opportunity instead.

An alternative might skirt close to suicide bombings with a fig leaf of technical survivability by planning to bring the plane in, most crew ditch, then the single pilot aims the plane at the target and bails out himself--if they survive, they surely will be taken prisoner by a nation that especially hates them of course. But would Hitler want to go to the trouble of locating a brave and capable set of volunteers, train them up, use them once, and then hand them over to the mongrel enemy? I'm thinking not.

Either it is frank suicide then, or the bombers will not be very capable of much load nor will they be able to target better than the haphazard, slipshod reality of American height bombers in this war. A mislaid bomb will probably kill somebody, but not the hundreds hoped for and not take out the targets most desired.

Also--even if we somehow have an Amerika-bomber with the range to get to New York, perhaps Philadelphia, maybe Washington DC--which means that of course all of New England is within its range too--still that leaves the vast majority of US territory out of its range. Because the northeast, especially the coastal conurbation, was so highly developed this small patch of the US (and however much of Canada it also can reach) counts for more than its geographic share. It can hardly be evacuated.

But anyway, most of the nation sits perfectly safe. Even places within the range of the bomber are sheltered if the bombers must first fly over defended territory. But even if they could level absolutely everything within range, and kill everyone resident or otherwise present there, the United States as an only somewhat truncated whole is right there, still fighting on and hardly impaired either.

The question of how many the Reich can build is one I wouldn't dare address, because it was never demonstrated OTL they could make even one successful prototype, let alone hundreds or thousands! Changing the goal to openly suicide missions would be a help, after the necessary redesign.
 
Some brief comments. I'll leave it as the Azores. They can pull them back to France if need be. By then, the bombings against America will likely have run their course. I do not know how much mention will be made in regard to all that. I'm just now starting to write the next update. The intent is also to write these as snapshots of time, with your imagination filling in the blanks. I do not mean for that to be a cop out. I'm trying to do what written stories do, where the reader uncovers the world as they go along. And certain specifications may not be covered. Ideally, my intent is for things to be believable, and what is covered to satisfy curiosity and reader investment in the story. There is also the matter that the government does not know the range of these planes, nor certainly does the public, and it's frightening. And that will be part of the forthcoming update as of now.
 
Last edited:
The world has enough real misery, and it is no longer a matter of being pampered enough in relative security and comfort to play with the idea of fictional misery. Therefore this is on hiatus for an indefinite period. My attentions are likely to turn totally to fantastical settings like scifi or fantasy, or other light topics.
 
The world has enough real misery, and it is no longer a matter of being pampered enough in relative security and comfort to play with the idea of fictional misery. Therefore this is on hiatus for an indefinite period. My attentions are likely to turn totally to fantastical settings like scifi or fantasy, or other light topics.

For what it's worth, I think it was rather enjoyable to read.
 
The world has enough real misery, and it is no longer a matter of being pampered enough in relative security and comfort to play with the idea of fictional misery. Therefore this is on hiatus for an indefinite period. My attentions are likely to turn totally to fantastical settings like scifi or fantasy, or other light topics.

Oh yeah, I think the Azores made for a feasible base for the air raid.
 
I feel you all deserve the incomplete chapter 2.

Chapter II

May 1944

"And I thank you, Reverend," the Air Raid Warden said, handing pamphlets to the portly old priest. There were boxes full of the same literature in the church basement, stacked next to sleeping cots and shelves of canned goods. If the Germans dropped poison, there was probably enough spare paper to seal up all the walls till the next block over. However, the latest batch of civil defense recruits were zealous in their jobs. If he had told him "no, thank you", the Warden would have insisted to take them "just in case". There was a lot of "just in case" these days. The priest took them with a smile and not another word.

Sgt. Mike Ostrowski stood beside him, with the suspect in hand. He was a Black male, no older than sixteen, who had been caught stealing canned goods. His accomplices made it out, but he was not so lucky. The city took a dim view of theft of an air raid shelter. "You must understand, this really never does happen," the priest said, making sure they understood he was compliant in his civic duty, and surely not deserving of a fine. "No worries, father," Mike said with a wink, "Like you said, this really never does happen." Of course, that was a lie, but it did not fit the narrative the War Department and the city wanted. Americans were united together, and reality would not stand in the way of that fact.
 
Top