Over the North Pole or across the Atlantic?
"Klaus was stationed in Norway. "Jesus Christ, it's cold!", he thought to himself."
Fragments From A Dead Earth
- Thread starter Emperor Norton I
- Start date
Over the North Pole or across the Atlantic?
"Klaus was stationed in Norway. "Jesus Christ, it's cold!", he thought to himself."
Per this page, it's 5900km from Oslo to NYC, and it gives a heading WNW, so I think that's still over the North Atlantic or the southern reaches of the Arctic Ocean. Depending on how far north in Norway the bombers are taking off from, though, you might be able to go over the Pole and get a shorter travel time, but I don't know enough about available bases or spherical geometry to speculate further than that.
Geographically, the Azores are a much better place to strike at the US from; much closer than France or Norway. Politically, it is hard to see just how Goering could get access to suitable runways there. I'd suggest something like this:
1) for reasons that need explaining, neither Britain nor the US has occupied them. Portugal is a neutral of course! OTL they sold tungsten, transported to occupied France overland via Spain, to the Reich. But not only Portugal's dictator Salazar but even Spain's Franco, who owed his rule of Spain to German and Italian aid in the civil war, and was bitterly opposed to the USSR, weaseled about becoming an Axis member, due to the dependency of both Iberian countries on seaborne imports. And of course if they formally declared war on the Allies they'd be sure to lose their overseas colonies, the only hope of getting them back being complete Axis victory. So Franco temporized. What Salazar's true feelings and sympathies were I don't know--much has been made of the fact that Portugal, whenever it was its own master, avoided war with Britain since the fifteenth century, but I don't know if that had any true bearing on anything. The fact was the Iberian dictatorships were caught between two fires and squirmed a lot. With Britain's command of the sea, barring attrition from U-boats, it is hard to see why they would not simply occupy the place early in the war and have done as they did OTL--Portugal's protests being pro forma and falling far short of declaration of war.
2) given the Azores are not under actual Allied control, I suppose it might be possible for Goering to do a quick grab-and-smash. The bombers have range to get there certainly, and if Salazar is going to wring his hands and look the other way, he can just as well be forced to let the Germans fuel up at a Portuguese airstrip too; Franco probably won't be bolder in interdicting overflight. Or they might have flown from a Spanish airfield. The question here is whether either Iberian or Azorian airfields could handle any sort of Amerika-bomber--did these require superior air fields to the short, grass-covered strips that were normal before WWII? Hard concrete and/or tremendous length? If so, it would be unlikely for such fields to exist on Portuguese-owned soil since the realm lacked the high-end aircraft that would need them. Conceivably the Germans prepared the way by funding an ostensibly civil airport for projected future peacetime heavy airliners, but that seems improbable. On the other hand the Amerika-bombers might not have required elaborate field facilities. If they didn't, then staging through the Azores might not have required a proper Luftwaffe base in place. Instead, U-boats or neutral flagged freighters out of Iberian ports bring the necessary fuel and perhaps the bombs secretly, and spy agents place them in storage at the fields secretly. The British of course have spies on the islands but perhaps with unusual good performance the Germans put one over on them?
So the planes take off from a controlled Luftwaffe base in France, land for refueling at a Portuguese or Spanish fuel, then fly on to the Azores where the Portuguese authorities have no idea they are headed (or so they say to the Allied embassies) and thence on to America. With a staging area as close as the Azores they might even plan on returning home via that strip. Or Hitler might decree that they mission is one-way in order to maximize the bomb load over New York.
Flying out of France instead (my globe tells me Norway is farther than western Brittany, though perhaps the more northerly route might avoid some of the risk of detection and interception over the British Isles) would increase the distance, lowering the bomb load for a one-way trip and possibly rule out the prospect of a round trip completely.
It was perfectly clear to me that New York was not hit by any nukes. That's good since I have a hard time believing the Reich could develop them faster than the Americans could.
It does seem that the Axis is somewhat better off in 1944 than they ought to be, and thus that the Allies are a bit worse off. OTL of course Normandy landings are in preparation already by the date of the bomb attacks. Since the Amerika-bomber program was a thing OTL, I don't find it too hard to believe it might have been attempted with the situation not much improved relatively, nor does the success of this strike imply that the Allies are a lot worse off than OTL--except for not holding the Azores already, which could conceivably be down to ATL diplomacy rather than the British being a lot weaker.
Mind, now that the attack has happened I suppose the USA will insist that some effort be diverted to take the Azores now, if only to deny them to the Luftwaffe in the future. The Allies probably can't move so fast as to deny them to the returning German planes, if in fact they do try to return rather than ditch and be taken home in U-boats.
Also, both Spain and Portugal might be looking at declarations of war war on them. This is bad news for them, but makes little difference to Allied strategy, except for the matter of seizing any colonial assets not already in Axis control (that is, Timor and other places occupied by the Japanese in the far east). Attacks on either Iberian nations will be diversions from the main effort aimed at landing in France. A British DOW on Spain is a green light for an Axis attack on Gibraltar--perhaps. But will Franco really want to let sufficient Wehrmacht forces to try and take The Rock through, when if they are successful all that really means is that he's replaced Britain with Germany as foreign occupier of Spanish soil? It's not like he has forces that can take Gibraltar for himself; surely Hitler will demand control if he has to use German forces to reduce it. Whereas Franco might be getting messages through back channels from the British that the DOW is pro forma, and sufficient civil cargoes will be slipping through the Allied blockade of Spanish trade to keep Spain limping along, and postwar he might be offered a peace on terms, maybe even get some colonies back, rather than unconditional surrender--if he leaves Gibraltar alone. The Portuguese might be getting similar offers, though the Americans will want their scalps quite a lot.
The USA retaliating immediately with nuclear strikes on the Axis is sheer fantasy in 1944 unless we can suppose the Manhattan Project is running a year ahead of OTL, which seems most unlikely. There won't be any bombs until 1945, and only a trickle of them then. By then, unless we suppose either the Soviets or the Western Allies are far worse off than OTL, the Reich will be falling kilometer by kilometer in its German heartland to converging waves of unstoppable armies crushing it east and west; if say the Western Allies are running behind the Soviets are still probably on track and all of Germany would be under Red Army occupation long before the Americans can ready even one bomb. OTL V-E day was before the Trinity test.
I suppose the purpose of the Amerika-bombers in this TL is to make the Yankees shelter-crazy more than anything else. Certainly the expensive tantrum of Hitler's is not cost-effective; the relative handful of bombs falling on New York will do trivial damage compared to the London Blitz, and yet the Blitz was clearly a failure in terms of stopping the British or even slowing them down much. The USA can brush off the losses and not be visibly slowed at all. The main effect is to persuade any wavering Americans to double down on the war effort, but the country is going pretty much all out while still sustaining a moderately prosperous civil economy. It would not be easy to accelerate the war effort, but there is plenty of reserve to make up for any setbacks the bombings cause. It was a dumb move. (But, if we can account for the Azores being left unoccupied, not uncharacteristic of Goering or Hitler).
1) for reasons that need explaining, neither Britain nor the US has occupied them. Portugal is a neutral of course! OTL they sold tungsten, transported to occupied France overland via Spain, to the Reich. But not only Portugal's dictator Salazar but even Spain's Franco, who owed his rule of Spain to German and Italian aid in the civil war, and was bitterly opposed to the USSR, weaseled about becoming an Axis member, due to the dependency of both Iberian countries on seaborne imports. And of course if they formally declared war on the Allies they'd be sure to lose their overseas colonies, the only hope of getting them back being complete Axis victory. So Franco temporized. What Salazar's true feelings and sympathies were I don't know--much has been made of the fact that Portugal, whenever it was its own master, avoided war with Britain since the fifteenth century, but I don't know if that had any true bearing on anything. The fact was the Iberian dictatorships were caught between two fires and squirmed a lot. With Britain's command of the sea, barring attrition from U-boats, it is hard to see why they would not simply occupy the place early in the war and have done as they did OTL--Portugal's protests being pro forma and falling far short of declaration of war.
2) given the Azores are not under actual Allied control, I suppose it might be possible for Goering to do a quick grab-and-smash. The bombers have range to get there certainly, and if Salazar is going to wring his hands and look the other way, he can just as well be forced to let the Germans fuel up at a Portuguese airstrip too; Franco probably won't be bolder in interdicting overflight. Or they might have flown from a Spanish airfield. The question here is whether either Iberian or Azorian airfields could handle any sort of Amerika-bomber--did these require superior air fields to the short, grass-covered strips that were normal before WWII? Hard concrete and/or tremendous length? If so, it would be unlikely for such fields to exist on Portuguese-owned soil since the realm lacked the high-end aircraft that would need them. Conceivably the Germans prepared the way by funding an ostensibly civil airport for projected future peacetime heavy airliners, but that seems improbable. On the other hand the Amerika-bombers might not have required elaborate field facilities. If they didn't, then staging through the Azores might not have required a proper Luftwaffe base in place. Instead, U-boats or neutral flagged freighters out of Iberian ports bring the necessary fuel and perhaps the bombs secretly, and spy agents place them in storage at the fields secretly. The British of course have spies on the islands but perhaps with unusual good performance the Germans put one over on them?
So the planes take off from a controlled Luftwaffe base in France, land for refueling at a Portuguese or Spanish fuel, then fly on to the Azores where the Portuguese authorities have no idea they are headed (or so they say to the Allied embassies) and thence on to America. With a staging area as close as the Azores they might even plan on returning home via that strip. Or Hitler might decree that they mission is one-way in order to maximize the bomb load over New York.
Flying out of France instead (my globe tells me Norway is farther than western Brittany, though perhaps the more northerly route might avoid some of the risk of detection and interception over the British Isles) would increase the distance, lowering the bomb load for a one-way trip and possibly rule out the prospect of a round trip completely.
It was perfectly clear to me that New York was not hit by any nukes. That's good since I have a hard time believing the Reich could develop them faster than the Americans could.
It does seem that the Axis is somewhat better off in 1944 than they ought to be, and thus that the Allies are a bit worse off. OTL of course Normandy landings are in preparation already by the date of the bomb attacks. Since the Amerika-bomber program was a thing OTL, I don't find it too hard to believe it might have been attempted with the situation not much improved relatively, nor does the success of this strike imply that the Allies are a lot worse off than OTL--except for not holding the Azores already, which could conceivably be down to ATL diplomacy rather than the British being a lot weaker.
Mind, now that the attack has happened I suppose the USA will insist that some effort be diverted to take the Azores now, if only to deny them to the Luftwaffe in the future. The Allies probably can't move so fast as to deny them to the returning German planes, if in fact they do try to return rather than ditch and be taken home in U-boats.
Also, both Spain and Portugal might be looking at declarations of war war on them. This is bad news for them, but makes little difference to Allied strategy, except for the matter of seizing any colonial assets not already in Axis control (that is, Timor and other places occupied by the Japanese in the far east). Attacks on either Iberian nations will be diversions from the main effort aimed at landing in France. A British DOW on Spain is a green light for an Axis attack on Gibraltar--perhaps. But will Franco really want to let sufficient Wehrmacht forces to try and take The Rock through, when if they are successful all that really means is that he's replaced Britain with Germany as foreign occupier of Spanish soil? It's not like he has forces that can take Gibraltar for himself; surely Hitler will demand control if he has to use German forces to reduce it. Whereas Franco might be getting messages through back channels from the British that the DOW is pro forma, and sufficient civil cargoes will be slipping through the Allied blockade of Spanish trade to keep Spain limping along, and postwar he might be offered a peace on terms, maybe even get some colonies back, rather than unconditional surrender--if he leaves Gibraltar alone. The Portuguese might be getting similar offers, though the Americans will want their scalps quite a lot.
The USA retaliating immediately with nuclear strikes on the Axis is sheer fantasy in 1944 unless we can suppose the Manhattan Project is running a year ahead of OTL, which seems most unlikely. There won't be any bombs until 1945, and only a trickle of them then. By then, unless we suppose either the Soviets or the Western Allies are far worse off than OTL, the Reich will be falling kilometer by kilometer in its German heartland to converging waves of unstoppable armies crushing it east and west; if say the Western Allies are running behind the Soviets are still probably on track and all of Germany would be under Red Army occupation long before the Americans can ready even one bomb. OTL V-E day was before the Trinity test.
I suppose the purpose of the Amerika-bombers in this TL is to make the Yankees shelter-crazy more than anything else. Certainly the expensive tantrum of Hitler's is not cost-effective; the relative handful of bombs falling on New York will do trivial damage compared to the London Blitz, and yet the Blitz was clearly a failure in terms of stopping the British or even slowing them down much. The USA can brush off the losses and not be visibly slowed at all. The main effect is to persuade any wavering Americans to double down on the war effort, but the country is going pretty much all out while still sustaining a moderately prosperous civil economy. It would not be easy to accelerate the war effort, but there is plenty of reserve to make up for any setbacks the bombings cause. It was a dumb move. (But, if we can account for the Azores being left unoccupied, not uncharacteristic of Goering or Hitler).
The production model Me 264 can fly 11,600 km with bomb load of 3,000 kg (that's bomb load of one B-17)
on Azores they are 4,128 km from New York
From the biggest Luftwaffe base Juvincourt in France, 5925 km to New York
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It seems the Azores are the only good launch base for the mission. I guess Portugal is an Axis power.
Nope
Despite it shorter range to New York (4128 km.)
it was part of Portugal a neutral Nation during WW2.
I've uploaded a sketch of an equidistant projection that goes out to 51 degrees, which is to say 3060 nautical miles or 5680 kilometers, from New York City at the center. Judge for yourselves which possible route is least bad! The westernmost point of the Azores as shown by this shoreline trace is about 35 degrees from the target. Note also that a straight line from it to the target (any line from the center to any point represents a great circle route in this projection) approaches over open waters, whereas a line from the tip of Brittany passes very near Cornwall, and one from Norway would thread between the Orkney and Faroe islands, barely missing northern Scotland, squeak past southern Iceland, and then approach NYC on a long track overland in North America, crossing over Nova Scotia and all of New England! For either of the more distant origin flights to work well, they'd have to dodge, adding more miles to the trip, and Norway IMHO is clean out; veering one way to avoid one British/American base just brings them closer to another.
Like I said, for a one-time stunt, it would be possible for the Azores to be unoccupied by anybody (though OTL the British moved in on them pretty quickly) and for the Luftwaffe to move through them, in and out; it would require some covert preparation. And give the Portuguese regime some semblance of plausible deniability, but that won't wash in the context of the full-on war; Salazar would be blamed even if he honestly had no idea the Germans were going to violate his neutrality that way, for letting it happen. And he can't just declare war on the Germans; they'd come pouring in through Spain (and force Franco to declare for the Axis too) and take his government apart in short order. Too bad the Allies couldn't move into Portugal on his invitation, but surely Salazar doesn't want his country to become a battle front and it is very doubtful the Allies have forces ready and able to move in fast enough to stop the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe. So Portugal was neutral, perhaps, but it can't be afterward. Salazar doesn't have to think the Axis will win; he has damn little choice if the Germans decide to use his country.
Franco is somewhat another matter. OTL he temporized, stalled, and weaseled, because unless the Axis was poised to crush Britain in very short order, his country would be doomed to severe hardship if the British could blockade it. If Hitler pig-headedly decided to simply march over Spain, I don't suppose the Spanish forces (decimated quite recently by the civil war, though of course then built up--with Axis help) could do much to slow him down. But they could do something, Axis forces being compelled to come in through restricted passages over the mountains or around them on the coasts. If he could temporarily delay them he might buy time for an Anglo-American landing he supports. I've speculated about this before, but I am far from being able to war-game it enough to guess how long loyal Spanish forces could hold off the Germans nor how fast could the Allies put how much into Spain. Odds are, the Germans get past the mountains and Spain becomes once again a battlefield, on a scale that puts the devastation of the Civil War into the shade. Nor is this a great scenario for the Allies--it puts them on the European mainland all right, but they already have that in Italy, and they wouldn't be a lot better off than in Italy, having to contest the terrain with stubborn German resistance, with the Germans being able to fall back to the mountains at their back just as in Italy. The Pyrenees are not quite the Alps but still, it would be a hard slog, just to get into southern France, and then another long hard slog across France to Germany. If Franco were very friendly, he might anticipate being betrayed by Hitler sooner or later, and seek to covertly prepare to secretly introduce hidden, disguised Allied units to reinforce the northern border, to hold the Germans there and buy time for a full on muster of an invasion force behind the line, and bring them up. This would save Iberia from the devastation of war (except for Luftwaffe bombing, but in such a scenario British and American air forces would move in quickly and parry the Luftwaffe, then go on a bombing offensive of their own). But it is a harebrained scheme; I don't suppose sufficient Allied units could be brought in with enough secrecy to seriously delay the German advance around or over the mountains.
Anyway Franco was not sympathetic to the Allies. Recognizing the British held the cards of vital overseas trade and held the overseas colonies (his original power base having after all been in Morocco) hostage, he did not want to antagonize them, but neither did he wish the Soviet Ally anything good, and cursed the Western Allies for joining with them. Insofar as Free French forces were a factor, he wouldn't like or trust them either, France having aided the Republican side of the Civil War, and any conservative French military men who might have preferred to see the aid go to Franco would be sitting in Vichy France on the other side; the Free French would be filtered to be the most anti-Fascist. His best and only option was neutrality, and it was within Hitler's power to violate it any time he decided the effort would be worthwhile. Surely if Hitler chose to do that, I suppose Franco would try to make the best of it by openly throwing in with him, and hoping (absurdly of course) that with Spain in the Axis as an independent partner rather than a puppet state, that the Axis might yet prevail.
He could hardly stop the air strike against the USA even if he wanted to; I suppose the Spanish air forces might have delayed it and sounded an alarm but then Hitler would just vengefully roll over Spain and it would become a pathetic puppet state if not incorporated into the Reich on similar terms to Poland or Bohemia. Best case for himself then would be calling in the Allies belatedly, which would be pretty terrible and might not even work--therefore the Allies might not even try, resolving to simply blockade the peninsula and reinforce the defense of Gibraltar. The air strike probably then forces Franco to take the dire consequences of open war with the Allies and try to get what benefit he can from openly joining the Axis. In which case Portugal is dead meat too.
OTOH, the particular Amerika-bomber mentioned in comments was indeed high-maintenance, heavy on wing loading, presumably heavy on the runway too, so it would require a reinforced runway, concrete or anyway prepared with steel matting, and a long one because it had high take-off speed. To get the range and bomb load required any plane would have to be heavy; the only way to make it STOL would involve some combination of even bigger wings (which would make it slow and vulnerable to interception) or even more powerful engines. The designs developed OTL after all did not satisfy the leadership as being adequate, yet they were at the extreme limit of what German aviation could accomplish, so a much better design seems unlikely.
Yeah, it is a bit of a paradox, which is why the USA never did suffer any airstrikes OTL of course! If the Germans could have prepared heavy runways in the Azores (and in Iberia somewhere, though in a pinch I suppose these long-range planes might have flown from France to the Azores nonstop) it would be doable, but how could they accomplish this secretly? The British surely have spies there, and as a neutral country the Portuguese possessions would be hard-pressed to keep big secrets. I suggested maybe an ostensibly civil project, to prepare long hard runways for future transAtlantic air liners, but that would probably have been too alarming for the Anglo-American alliance to let slide and would trigger an occupation.
So--either these Amerika-bombers are a different design, that can use relatively primitive runways, perhaps using jet-assisted takeoff or some such. Or they have to stage a different way. Even if both Franco and Salazar had declared for the Axis openly, say in the last days of the Battle of France along with Italy, this would merely have guaranteed the loss of all their overseas colonies immediately, especially the Azores. Hitler had plenty of troops to garrison them--but neither the sea power nor the air power to place them after a Portuguese DOW, while trying to pre-position them would violate Portugal's claims to neutrality and again expose the islands to a quick British takeover--this one with no apologies to Lisbon. One might fantasize a combined air-lift/cargo U-boat reinforcement of the Azores, but I'm pretty sure the RN would have been up to blocking it, and taking control of the islands handily behind the screen of their fleet. Once taken, suitable airfields would surely be built--and firmly in Allied hands, to bomb Iberia and points east rather than distant America to the west.
Given the difficulty of a suitable design to take advantage of Azores airports, perhaps it would be better to instead stage out of France--out of Brittany, which is closer to America than Norway is, in particular. To deliver a big bomb load, this might require airplanes even more grandiose than the OTL designs.
It is a matter then of which is easier to design, a plane that can strike at 6000+ kilometers range, or one that can land and take off on poor primitive airstrips in the Azores. Although I like the idea of staging through the Azores, it is a one-time stunt since the Allies can move in on these islands and at any rate deny them to the Luftwaffe if not so easily seize them for themselves. A plane that can make it from Norway can do better from western France.
Since the Germans can ill afford to send wave after wave to America anyway, I suppose Hitler might recognize that this is a one-time trick. Perhaps the easiest way to stretch the OTL designs to be both attainable and practical on existing airfields would be to design in jet-assisted takeoff, on a grand scale, suitable to allow an unimproved Azorian field to launch a laden plane. It could come in to this airfield almost empty, thus being lighter and allowing a short landing run, then get loaded up including a battery of hypergolic liquid rocket engines (in frequent use in the German forces). This would be risky as all hell, but say Hitler enjoys his Devil's luck once again this time and just the once, the engines all work as planned, the fuel is successfully transported (in submarines!) without blowing up and/or poisoning the sub crew, and the Americans get no warning of the strike until the planes are practically upon their targets.
I don't know what degree of coastal air defense the USA had in wartime, but I would not be surprised to find it amazingly primitive and minimal; the major defense of the USA is sheer distance and if we look at it cold-bloodedly, it is more rational to deploy advanced radar and heavy defenses forward against the Axis than defensively along US borders, since the damage Axis raiders could do at such extreme ranges from all safe bases for them would be minimal. I daresay this strike does compel the US forces to beef up the coastal defenses, but they would probably do it on the cheap and largely for show, to reserve more resources for where it really counts; still the mission is a partial success for the Germans insofar as it does divert resources from the attack on the Reich. By this criterion, the otherwise pathetically ineffective Zeppelin raids of WWI also had some success, since the British did develop extensive air defenses in Britain that did divert a lot of effort from the actual front. Hitler might rationally be going for a similar diversion now, and one can only hope the US military can fool the public on the cheap and not be too diverted. It does seem though that postwar, the diversion to defensive shelters and possibly ABMs will be major.
Geon
Donor
Shevek23
I don't know if you saw what I did in my TL "How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms," but I posited an attack by two Me264s on the U.S. from a Norwegian base. The two bombers took off from Norway and presumably circumvented the island of UK which would of course have cost them some fuel. Their mission involved launching modified V-1s from their bomb bays toward Washington and Philadelphia. This I learned was not theoretical. The Luftwaffe had actually done so during the war. Also the Me264 pilots were aware this was a one way trip. They were to drop their V-1s (which were loaded with nerve gas by the way) and then head toward a point in the Atlantic where they would ditch and the crews be picked up by submarine. Yes it would cost them both existing bombers but if it meant that panic would be sown in two major American cities it would be worth the sacrifice.
I mention this because it occurs to me that basing the attack in an Axis controlled area might be easier to control and keep secret then doing so in the Azores in uncertain political conditions and given the chance that some neutral or worse allied aircraft might happen over the islands and notice something out of place.
I don't know if you saw what I did in my TL "How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms," but I posited an attack by two Me264s on the U.S. from a Norwegian base. The two bombers took off from Norway and presumably circumvented the island of UK which would of course have cost them some fuel. Their mission involved launching modified V-1s from their bomb bays toward Washington and Philadelphia. This I learned was not theoretical. The Luftwaffe had actually done so during the war. Also the Me264 pilots were aware this was a one way trip. They were to drop their V-1s (which were loaded with nerve gas by the way) and then head toward a point in the Atlantic where they would ditch and the crews be picked up by submarine. Yes it would cost them both existing bombers but if it meant that panic would be sown in two major American cities it would be worth the sacrifice.
I mention this because it occurs to me that basing the attack in an Axis controlled area might be easier to control and keep secret then doing so in the Azores in uncertain political conditions and given the chance that some neutral or worse allied aircraft might happen over the islands and notice something out of place.
No one has mentioned what was bombed in Brooklyn. I will casually mention it in the 1945 update.
The next update will potentially brush past the Azores issue. Truth be told, I don't mind where the bombers come from, so long as they come. If the Azores location makes things too complicated, I'll change it to France and let the imagination fill in the blanks of payloads, etc. It isn't a sticking point for the story.
The next update will potentially brush past the Azores issue. Truth be told, I don't mind where the bombers come from, so long as they come. If the Azores location makes things too complicated, I'll change it to France and let the imagination fill in the blanks of payloads, etc. It isn't a sticking point for the story.
Penny for The Guy
Banned
By all means, let's get past the Azores.
So far as what was bombed in Brooklyn, I presumed either the Zoo or the SSR downtown laboratories.
So far as what was bombed in Brooklyn, I presumed either the Zoo or the SSR downtown laboratories.
Well, whatever the prime strategic target may have been (Brooklyn Naval Yards comes to mind very easily) we know quite a few bombs were just randomly peppered over residential areas.
No matter what the most valuable single thing destroyed turns out to be, I don't believe they could take out anything the USA can't replace somehow or other, somewhere or other, very quickly.
The most irreplaceable thing is of course human beings.
I believe that Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, and a bunch of other Golden Age SF writers including a good portion of the Futurians were all working at one place together at this time, possibly in fact the BNY, and so one bomb on the cafeteria could half decapitate the entire Golden Age, at least its wartime/postwar legacy. And the late 40s and early 50s were indeed the period of greatest productivity, at least in SF, for many of these people. (Not sure how many of the handful of women among them were also there in that same lab!) Although a New Yorker and a Futurian, I believe Fred Pohl is at this point "safe" off in some Army training camp, believing he is being trained to invade Norway but actually bound for Italy, although IIRC the war ended overseas before he was actually deployed. So we get some continuity anyway. Pohl is very good, and was even more valuable as an editor, but I imagine he'd be the first to lament the loss of as much talent as might have happened with this strike at NYC.
Still, despite the body blow that SF imagination might take, I don't think that there was anyone truly irreplaceable in the sense of halting any lines of progress or development; the loss of the foremost genius in charge of this or that merely brings their rivals or understudies blinking on to the stage; nothing we developed in WWII and actually deployed required the unique genius or vision of any one person.
So my guess is, EN, if you want to do your worst, blow up the BNY cafeteria with the Futurians and their peers all having an argument at some table at ground zero together.
No matter what the most valuable single thing destroyed turns out to be, I don't believe they could take out anything the USA can't replace somehow or other, somewhere or other, very quickly.
The most irreplaceable thing is of course human beings.
I believe that Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, and a bunch of other Golden Age SF writers including a good portion of the Futurians were all working at one place together at this time, possibly in fact the BNY, and so one bomb on the cafeteria could half decapitate the entire Golden Age, at least its wartime/postwar legacy. And the late 40s and early 50s were indeed the period of greatest productivity, at least in SF, for many of these people. (Not sure how many of the handful of women among them were also there in that same lab!) Although a New Yorker and a Futurian, I believe Fred Pohl is at this point "safe" off in some Army training camp, believing he is being trained to invade Norway but actually bound for Italy, although IIRC the war ended overseas before he was actually deployed. So we get some continuity anyway. Pohl is very good, and was even more valuable as an editor, but I imagine he'd be the first to lament the loss of as much talent as might have happened with this strike at NYC.
Still, despite the body blow that SF imagination might take, I don't think that there was anyone truly irreplaceable in the sense of halting any lines of progress or development; the loss of the foremost genius in charge of this or that merely brings their rivals or understudies blinking on to the stage; nothing we developed in WWII and actually deployed required the unique genius or vision of any one person.
So my guess is, EN, if you want to do your worst, blow up the BNY cafeteria with the Futurians and their peers all having an argument at some table at ground zero together.
Penny for The Guy
Banned
Well, whatever the prime strategic target may have been (Brooklyn Naval Yards comes to mind very easily) we know quite a few bombs were just randomly peppered over residential areas.
No matter what the most valuable single thing destroyed turns out to be, I don't believe they could take out anything the USA can't replace somehow or other, somewhere or other, very quickly.
The most irreplaceable thing is of course human beings.
I believe that Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, and a bunch of other Golden Age SF writers including a good portion of the Futurians were all working at one place together at this time, possibly in fact the BNY, and so one bomb on the cafeteria could half decapitate the entire Golden Age, at least its wartime/postwar legacy. And the late 40s and early 50s were indeed the period of greatest productivity, at least in SF, for many of these people. (Not sure how many of the handful of women among them were also there in that same lab!) Although a New Yorker and a Futurian, I believe Fred Pohl is at this point "safe" off in some Army training camp, believing he is being trained to invade Norway but actually bound for Italy, although IIRC the war ended overseas before he was actually deployed. So we get some continuity anyway. Pohl is very good, and was even more valuable as an editor, but I imagine he'd be the first to lament the loss of as much talent as might have happened with this strike at NYC.
Still, despite the body blow that SF imagination might take, I don't think that there was anyone truly irreplaceable in the sense of halting any lines of progress or development; the loss of the foremost genius in charge of this or that merely brings their rivals or understudies blinking on to the stage; nothing we developed in WWII and actually deployed required the unique genius or vision of any one person.
So my guess is, EN, if you want to do your worst, blow up the BNY cafeteria with the Futurians and their peers all having an argument at some table at ground zero together.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Or, I could have them hiding in a basement, discussing their predicament from their unique perspectives as they huddle for survival, thinking they might die. Not that I know enough of their character and personality to write that, but it would be an interesting vignette.
Penny for The Guy
Banned
"Damnit, Isaac, If it hadn't been for you we'd all be in Philadelphia."
"That's Second Prize, Bob."
"Aw, shut up, Cyril. Always with the W.C. Fields jokes."
"Come on, Bob, we know what's the real problem, don't we?"
"Yeah, Isaac, you're right. I just wish I knew if Lieutenant Gerstenfeld made it to a shelter in time."
"No sweat, old chum. Ginny's quicker on her feet than any of us."
"Yeah, I hope you're right."
"HEY! Do you think Campbell's OK?"
"That's Second Prize, Bob."
"Aw, shut up, Cyril. Always with the W.C. Fields jokes."
"Come on, Bob, we know what's the real problem, don't we?"
"Yeah, Isaac, you're right. I just wish I knew if Lieutenant Gerstenfeld made it to a shelter in time."
"No sweat, old chum. Ginny's quicker on her feet than any of us."
"Yeah, I hope you're right."
"HEY! Do you think Campbell's OK?"
And somewhere off in the corner, Mr. Hubbard draws a picture of himself with a crown, being carried around by the mole men. "Soon," he muttered to himself, "Soon."
Penny for The Guy
Banned
That's "Elron" to YOU, Pilgrim!
(Where did we go wrong, Snoopy? I dunno, maybe when the Amerika Bomber was flyin' into Los Angeleezze, bringin' in a couple of keezzes. Now, Cut That Out!)
It looks like the next update will be 1945. Its subject matter makes me miserable. If it gets too miserable, I may write it in the past tense in the 1964 update. Why can't they have a happy war?
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