A hardliner ATL Soviet Union doesn't withdraw from Afghanistan, results?

I find it confusing to what could happen Afghanistan if the Soviets never had withdrawn.
And I have read these threads https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/war-on-terror-with-a-surviving-ussr.132355/ and https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/what-if-the-cold-war-never-ended.438739/page-4 what could be the most likeliest chance to happen?

1.The mujahedeen lost the civil war and Osama Bin Laden refuge somewhere else. Where or what country could it be?
If the Soviets do win, how many years would It take for them to win the war? Would 9/11 still occur?

2. Soviets do not withdraw but they don't win or loose which is likely imo but OBS still stays in Afghanistan and fights there.
How long would the puppet state survive? Would Afghanistan look like OTL Syria? Would Osama still hate the Americans and conduct 9/11 or commit
terrorist attacks on Both USA and USSR

3. Or the Soviets stay in Afghanistan and the mujahedeen are purged and there is no 9/11 no war on terror.

This alternate Soviet Union is as hardline as the pre-gorbachev era.
For whatever reason Gorbachev wasn't elected GenSec and instead a hardliner was in charge.
 
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A USSR with different leadership and political situation in the 1980s has a lot of far reaching consequences that would need to be dealt with specifically based on who, why, and how. But if we assume a similar collapse from ‘89 to ‘91 but with Soviet troops still engaged in Afghanistan, Im not entirely sure much would change. There’s a snowballs chance in hell that the DRA comes out on top of we assume a similar play out of the war. An extra year or two isn’t changing much on the ground, just longer holding actions. Maybe some important postwar figures are killed in action which could shake things up? Longer intervention means the DRA might limp on into ‘93 or ‘94, but will almost certainly still collapse. I don’t see any reason for OBL to change his broader political trajectory ITTL considering the PoD, but the specific circumstances of 9/11 will be butterflied. The collision course is still in motion though, none of the frictions have really changed.

Having the USSR outright win the war will require a more far reaching PoD, but will have much more dramatic changes. Of course, I suspect winning the war really means the PDPA doesn’t kick off an insurgency in the first place, because once the cats out of the bag then “winning” suddenly becomes very daunting. If Crisis in the Kremlin taught me anything, an Indo-Pakistani war over Kashmir with an Indian victory and then limited Soviet strikes over the Pakistani border to destroy mujahideen bases, combined with a ramp up of troops should demoralize the insurgency sufficiently to take a lot of wind out of it. Mostly joking though.
 
Longer intervention means the DRA might limp on into ‘93 or ‘94, but will almost certainly still collapse. I don’t see any reason for OBL to change his broader political trajectory ITTL considering the PoD, but the specific circumstances of 9/11 will be butterflied.
If that happens then Afghanistan will be like this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Afghanistan instead of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Emirate_of_Afghanistan_(1996–2001)? I don't have any hopes for the Soviets to win the war. The best case scenario for DRA is for the Soviets to not withdraw. Well if the Osama and the key people for 9/11 survived I think that 9/11 would still unfortunately happen. Although, It surely won't happen on 9/11 literally but maybe it will be delayed by years.
 
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If the Soviets stayed in Afghanistan and kept fighting, where would he refuge to plan his terrorist attack? Will he stay in Afghanistan to not only fight the Soviets but the Americans too?
 
I predict that 9/11 might end up occurring in Russia instead.
Yeah, AQ would likely try to take advantage of the Chechnya and Dagestan situation.

The 9/11 as we know it is butterflied away and its equivalent would either target Moscow or St. Petersburg/Leningrad.
 
Complete economic collapse of the USSR.
Based on what? The economy stagnated (that means grew just a little bit) under Brezhnev, the collapsed occured when Gorbachev introduced market reforms. If a 'hardliner' regime retains the Brezhnevite economy, it will inherit the stagnation. The standing of the USSR will continue to decline. But collapse? No.

That being sad, the western concept of a hardliner didn't exist in the real politbureau from 1985. Everyone wanted some kind of reforms, the question was just how far-reaching these reforms should be. And every big Soviet politician favored a withdrawal from Afghanistan, some just supported continued weapon and fuel deliveries and a continued training for Afghan officers.
 
I kind of disagree, Osama Bin Laden still has multiple reasons to hate for the US he probably will attack both.
IIRC one of the major reasons that 9/11 happened was because the United States continued to back Israel. I don't think something like that would necessarily happen in the USSR, but if the USSR continues to fight Islamists in Afghanistan there's a possibility (even though Al-Qaeda is Salafi and the Taliban is Deobandi). I imagine Al-Qaeda would probably help funnel arms to groups like the Caucasian Emirate (if it even forms) instead of outright attacking the USSR given that the Soviet Union had a lot more domestic Muslims that could be open to radical strains of thought, especially if the USSR would continue to suppress religion (which it likely would).
 
I find it confusing to what could happen Afghanistan if the Soviets never had withdrawn.
Well, what kind of hardliner? Gorbachev was generally considered a hardliner when he rose to power.

And the general consensus among those labeled by the CIA as "hardliners" was that some sort of reform was necessary. But obviously a different personality to Gorbachev would have done things differently, and possibly that means the "reforms" are futile deck-chair re-arranging meaning the Soviets are not hurt as they were by Gorbachev's reforms, but nor are their issues addressed, meaning the USSR slowly declines in relative power but remains a military great power well into the 21st Century. Or maybe the reforms actually do some good and after a difficult time in the 1990s, the Soviet Union manages to tread water in terms of relative economic performance or starts to slowly close the gap, though not fast enough to avoid being overtaken by China as the largest economy in the Second World.

(As you might be able to tell, I don't find the habit of Western Sovietology to talk about hardliners vs moderates vs liberals as terribly useful when discussing Soviet politics as the underlying political dynamics of the USSR depended on personal relationships, favor trading and personal views that could lead to surprising alignments between Soviet politicians - a fellow like Suslov could be a "hardliner" on the subject of western relations, while at the same time being a "liberal" on the subject of relations between the Soviets and their allies/clients and so on.)

Assuming that "hardliner" in this context is someone who doesn't trust Thatcher and Reagan and who believes that the Soviet military must stay in Afghanistan indefinitely or else the country will become a CIA puppet, while also reforming the USSR enough to remain the main obstacle to US domination of the world, but not enough to avoid noticeable weakness in the 90s, well... Eventually the Soviets are going to have to settle things in Afghanistan by sitting down the tribal coalition fighting them with government of the Afghan cities and come to some sort of compromise. I can see a situation where all the sides eventually get tired of fighting and the compromise looks like "Soviet base is kept in Kabul, the city people keep their noses out of the countryside and Soviet "development aid" to both the tribes and the Kabul regime bribes both into keeping a reasonable common front against other foreigners. So the Soviets haven't totally withdrawn, and the civil war basically ends. It would take a few more years busting heads and getting shot at in Afghanistan to do, but it is possible. I think for the Kabul regime to be given absolute control over the whole country would take more time than GenSec "hardliner" will have in office, and in any case, the Soviets aren't really interested in crushing rural Afghanistan (indeed part of why they intervened was because they opposed the Kabul regime trying to go all Stalin-mode on their rural countrymen - they wanted a stable and boring Afghanistan, not a textbook Marxist-Leninist Afghanistan). So long as Afghanistan isn't leaning pro-west or trying to invade Pakistan, the Soviets will be happy. Indeed, one of the challenges in making your scenario happen is making it so the Soviets don't add complete withdrawal to the bargain, and instead bleed more for the sake of keeping some bases in the country, which isn't super likely.

So what does Bin Laden do in this scenario? Well, it's quite possible Bin Laden bravely dies acting as a meat-shield, protecting some far more worthy Afghan freedom fighter. But let's assume "no".

Even if the Soviets are able to secure an uneasy peace in Afghanistan itself by say the mid-90s, I'll bet that there will be plenty of anti-Soviet fighters in the Pashtun borderlands of Afghanistan getting some level of support from Pakistan and the US. So potentially Bin Laden keeps on with that project. But on the other hand, Soviet power in the middle east as a whole is likely to decline in the wake of the shattering American success in the Gulf War (I'm assuming that Saddam isn't butterflied into not seeking war somehow and that Bush sr. is still the President and makes similar calls in TTL to OTL) and the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia itself would still be deeply upsetting to Bin Laden. He may also have some resentment about the US not supporting the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan ENOUGH, so while it is possible that Bin Laden remains fixated on the Atheist Soviets, I see a good chance that he would decide that opposing the US was more necessary in any case.

That said, he may try recruiting Soviet Muslims instead of Saudis for his main attack on the US in TTL, in the hopes that he can strike at the US AND encourage the US to strike back against the USSR.

9/11 leading to a US-Soviet nuclear war is not entirely out of the question.

But that's assuming a successful 9/11. The operation needed a goodly measure of luck to come off in OTL, and that's not guaranteed in TTL, especially as a weak, but still dangerous Soviet Union being around would mean more spending on national security. But of course, that spending would largely be busy with watching for Soviet threats. So Bin Laden could still find a gap and get a blow in.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
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That said, he may try recruiting Soviet Muslims instead of Saudis for his main attack on the US in TTL, in the hopes that he can strike at the US AND encourage the US to strike back against the USSR.

9/11 leading to a US-Soviet nuclear war is not entirely out of the question.

But that's assuming a successful 9/11. The operation needed a goodly measure of luck to come off in OTL, and that's not guaranteed in TTL, especially as a weak, but still dangerous Soviet Union being around would mean more spending on national security. But of course, that spending would largely be busy with watching for Soviet threats. So Bin Laden could still find a gap and get a blow in.
I don't know how the terrorists will do it but oh boy, that would be horrible. A nuclear war happening will be a complete mass death scenario.
 
I don't know how the terrorists will do it but oh boy, that would be horrible. A nuclear war happening will be a complete mass death scenario.

Pretty much how they did things in OTL? Take advantage of American distraction and hubris and land a blow that hurts so much that the US lashes out at convenient targets that have nothing to do with Bin Laden's group. Worked in OTL well enough.

And yeah, a nuclear war would be truly ghastly.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Option 2 is the most likely scenario.

The war in Afghanistan was a hopeless endeavour from the start. The kind of manpower and resources needed to crush the Mujahideen were not available in the dying days of the USSR. The ruthlessness needed to crush them would have only invited further Pakistani intervention, a Pakistan that was rocketing towards nuclear power status. If anything, General Zia might put the USSR in a M.A.D. scenario and force a drawdown.

The fundamental issue was that the USSR was dying empire. I cannot fathom a POD later than the late 70s that results in squeezing a few extra years of life from. In 1991, it still falls, though in a much hastened manner.
This makes the withdrawal of the now ex soviet forces completely haphazard and only dooms the socialist government to go with the retreating troops.
 
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Based on what? The economy stagnated (that means grew just a little bit) under Brezhnev, the collapsed occured when Gorbachev introduced market reforms. If a 'hardliner' regime retains the Brezhnevite economy, it will inherit the stagnation. The standing of the USSR will continue to decline. But collapse? No.
That's not how... it works.

What was happening from the late 70s onward was that the wheels on the socialist economy were already coming off. Market shock did kick the thing into collapse mode, but so could a prolonged war
Economic plans were utterly failing. These failing plans took its toll on the least important sectors: namely consumer sector. More resources in this war means less spent on home. Soon the shortages will start to snowball and then you're right back to the OTL.
 
That's not how... it works.

What was happening from the late 70s onward was that the wheels on the socialist economy were already coming off. Market shock did kick the thing into collapse mode, but so could a prolonged war
Economic plans were utterly failing. These failing plans took its toll on the least important sectors: namely consumer sector. More resources in this war means less spent on home. Soon the shortages will start to snowball and then you're right back to the OTL.
The Afghanistan War was no huge economic drain on the USSR, the biggest issue with it was the psychological impact it had on the population. Even under the shocks of 1990/1991 Gorbachev could easily continue to deliver fuel to the Afghan Army, Yeltsin only cut it to appease the West.
 
The war in Afghanistan was a hopeless endeavour from the start. The kind of manpower and resources needed to crush the Mujahideen empire were not available in the dying days of the USSR.
You are aware that the Soviets won the war in Afghanistan in OTL right?

Yes, going in was almost certainly the wrong call, and yes the war was expensive. But in no way can you say it was hopeless and the "dying" USSR didn't have what it took to win. They could win, and militarily they did win. For all the good it did them.

(And what the heck is this "Mujahideen empire"? You know the Soviets were fighting a shifting coalition of tribes right?)

Doing better in Afghanistan doesn't really add any years to the Soviet Union, nor does doing worse really take many years off, unless they turn the Afghan war into WW3. The war was, well, a useless luxury that the KGB dragged them into. But what the USSR lives and dies on is domestic policy (and the Soviets mucking up their domestic situation and collapsing is what caused the Kabul regime to collapse as well, not losing the war militarily).

Regards,

fasquardon
 
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