I've just read this:
Now...as title states. Which nation in Asia in 1800 (has to be, at the very least, nominally independent) has the best "breeding ground" for industrialization? will it have enough population that there's a concentrated amount of people and the population is still under the production level that the economy demands? do they have natural resources enough that their industrialization process will not be hindered? State a country, explain why you'd think the country will be easiest to industrialize with some "minor" PODs.
That's a better explanation.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, basically for industrialization to happen you need labor and resource shortages that keep the economy constantly in some sort of crisis, but not in such crisis that the ability to find some "peace and quiet" to develop the scientific arts is hindered. Europe, by virtue of not being united or as populous as China, naturally possesses the economic condition, but only a country like Britain, protected by the Channel, has the peace needed for intensive tech advances needed for industrialization.
Essentially, yes, along with the fact that England was one of the most densely populated regions in Europe, making it easier for workers to specialize, as opposed to individuals in sparsely populated regions who would have had to meticulously create each product by themselves. In addition, Europe's population remained relatively low in comparison to China in part due to reoccurring plagues, along with occasional conflicts, and although China experienced significant population decreases as well, they were much more severe due to periodic nomadic invasions, and were specifically limited to a few decades, making it difficult to continuously build upon prior innovations for more than several centuries.
Then here's another approach, though it doesn't really involve the Song. Say the Mongol dynasty conquers the north but works out some sort of tributary system with a smattering of fractured southern Chinese states, which are manipulated into vying with each other and generally being mutually uncooperative. Perhaps one of these states could take a position similar to that of Qi from the Warring States period, and build up a powerful trading system while playing political games with the other states and the Mongol overlords to avoid invasion and turmoil. This situation persists for a couple hundred years, as the Mongols for whatever reason find it easier to directly rule a part of China rather than all of it.
Finding the right PoD would be a major issue, as China would probably be unified long before the Mongols invade. China remained divided throughout the Spring and Autumn/Warring States Periods because the regions were generally proportional in terms of demographics. However, North China gradually became more densely populated afterwards, while South China continued to be gradually populated by Han Chinese over time, which explains why although China remained divided from around 220-589, with the exception of the Sima Jin, China Proper generally remained divided between two stable regions, and there were only two major periods, each spanning about half a century, when the country was extremely fragmented. By the time that the Tang collapsed in 907, the population had gradually begun to shift to coastal regions, so it would have been likely for a state with a firm foothold in North China and access to the ocean/major rivers to eventually reunify China, which accurately describes the Song. Afterwards, the population generally began shifting to the south and closer to the major rivers, which explains how the Ming managed to reunify China after taking control of the Yangtze.
In other words, the geopolitics at the time makes it extremely unlikely for China to remain fragmented for long.
Mongol suzerainty over the south then wanes, and by this point our "Latter Qi" is considered a jewel of post-Song culture and learning, as well as technical application of the sciences. The other princes in the Chinese region have also adopted these technologies over time, but "Qi" remains the innovator. With the waning of Mongol hegemony, all the Chinese states begin to fight again. The "Latter Qin" state that wins out is one that is eager to adopt "Qi"'s ideas but also has the requisite resources, population, and ruthlessness to conquer China, which "Qi" lacks.
Assuming that this scenario somehow occurs, the Mongols would probably retreat around 150-250 years after the initial invasion, given the events that occurred IOTL, as social issues began to build up over time and take a significant toll on the government. As a result, although some important innovations might occur here and there, they probably wouldn't be particularly consolidated enough to spur further developments in the long run, as it would take more than several decades to even recover from the invasions.
By the time "Qin" is successful in uniting China proper (Maybe the late 1500s?), all major states have adopted at least some of "Qi"'s innovations and the tradition of interstate economic as well as military competition has emerged. Also by this time, other northern "barbarians" (perhaps legit empires by this time) threaten China again, and so the "Qin" court finds it expedient to develop ever-more advanced methods of dealing with them in order to not jeopardize societal and economic prosperity that the emperor suspects has something to do with the longevity of his regime.
Say that butterflies have also sped up developments in Europe; as signs of this hit China and as the whites begin colonizing stuff and trying to conduct trade everywhere, the emperors of the "Qin", who are acutely aware of the danger posed by powerful outsiders, find increasingly necessary to maintain consistent scientific and industrial progress.
==================================================Yes, but unless China as a whole is continuously depopulated at a significant level for around 300-500 years, it would probably be difficult for China to accurately view the Europeans as a long-term threat. Even if significant innovations do manage to occur, it would be hard for the intellectuals to convince the aristocrats that continuously maintaining a relative government monopoly would not be beneficial, as the officials would attempt to retain their influence. This scenario also ignores the wokou raids, which will probably still occur regardless of the situation, and was a major reason why the Ming decided to ban maritime trade soon after the dynasty had been established.
Steam engines can burn wood quite easily, so not having coal isn't actually a deterrent to steam development.
Wow, that's an elegant solution. Just use wood, no problem. Well, there are a few....
Far long before the introduction of the steam engine, wood was extremely important because it was the only source of thermal energy available, besides the myriad of other uses it had. Subsequently, even before anyone would be in a position to try some sort of all-charcoal steam power scheme, Europe was on the way to deforestation. In some areas this was so acute that people would dry seaweed for fuel.
Now, before the industrial revolution there was a wealthy Netherlands which was a great manufacturing nation. The Dutch not only made glass, they also produced bricks, tiles, ceramics and clay pipes, they refined salt and sugar, bleached linen, boiled soap, brewed beer, distilled spirits and baked bread. All of that needed massive amounts of thermal energy. You can polish glass with a windmill, but you can't make glass with it. OTL, the Dutch were blessed with peat reserves which they could burn to accomplish that. If that peat didn't exist, couldn't they just use wood instead. Well, all of the forests in the region had long vanished by the 1600's. Couldn't they just make a deal with Scandinavia or something and import the wood, then? Well... no. It would simply have been exorbitantly expensive given the transport options available then. It was hard enough just moving peat from the mines in the north, getting wood from Scandinavia would be crazy. The same restrictions would no doubt be in place for an England without coal.
TLDR; It's one hell of a deterrent.
Eh? The Dutch had that as well, excluding the paper money, but it didn't mean there was a going to be an industrial revolution.
I don't think high productivity and advanced trading techniques would inevitably lead to industrialization, or even lead to industrialization at all.
Sorry guys if I offended anyone that I posted here. But I just wanted to make sure at the OP that people understand the full qualities of industrialization for a country.Yeah, why did the Dutch come so late into the industrial game when they seemingly had such great foundation?
The peat mines dried up and they didn't have coal.
Now...as title states. Which nation in Asia in 1800 (has to be, at the very least, nominally independent) has the best "breeding ground" for industrialization? will it have enough population that there's a concentrated amount of people and the population is still under the production level that the economy demands? do they have natural resources enough that their industrialization process will not be hindered? State a country, explain why you'd think the country will be easiest to industrialize with some "minor" PODs.