Malaya What If

[Amir]

Write-up of Wellington torps in the Med in NZ Official History

THE TORPEDO-BOMBERS ATTACK | NZETC

How can I be captured by the Italians?

 

[Nevarinemex]

With the British and the RN doing better, and perhaps the Asiatic fleet joins Force Z and has success in operations, and it shows in the press and reports from the British Malaya command praising Adm. Hart's preparations and readiness as opposed to MacArthur's complete FUBAR( Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition) of his command.

"Good evening Mr. and Mrs. America...let's go to Press. " Or Ernest Cuneo can write the article on "Dimples" for Drew Pearson. There was subterfuge between Mr. Cuneo , the FBI, OSS, BSC and FDR. Can GEN MacArthur be portrayed as a blundering dilettante, who unlike the British, loses his air assets eight hours after the USN sends the "Heads Up"? The ten day voyage to Soerbaja by ADM Hart can be construed as malfeasance on the part of the USAFFE, for losing air control. It depends upon whether FDR desires to make the Navy appear heroic in SE Asia, while negligent at Hawaii.

 

[muddyleathers]

Your post confuses me, it I get the general intent, and I like your train of thought.

 

[Nevarinemex]

What do we do about a problem like Maria, or in this case MacArthur, is an interesting question. First it shows the fundamental difference between the British and American political systems, which is not we have a King/Queen, and they have a President. At no time during the war did Winston have to look over his shoulder worrying about one of his Generals taking over from him. And funny enough it always appears to be Generals, never Admirals, who seem to have far less desire to be the ruler of the nation. I do not envy our authors problem with trying to decide what to do with Mac, as the potential changes ITTL, make him and his T/L even more problematic. IOTL the British failures acted to cover up Mac’s failure in the Philippines, and left a position where there was a significant threat to Australia, and a name was needed to become supreme allied commander. Where as ITTL British success in defending Malaysia and Burma, leading to the retention of the majority of the DEI, while the Americans failure in the Philippines under MacArthur, means that the situation is totally different. The threat to Australia is much reduced ITTL, and so the requirement for a Supreme Allied Commander is basically absent, so if Mac survives and is evacuated successfully, he is essentially out of a job. Which puts even more pressure on the American political system, as unless a suitable position is found for him, he will become a very polarising figure. The British will not want to have anything to do with him, and will be very resistant to having him appointed to any command position that involves him in charge of British/Empire forces. So he is if he is to be given another command position, it will have to be one that is American only. Other than the obvious our author, is very restricted in his options, as by this stage of the war there are very few command positions that do not require interaction with allied forces. The obvious which is to just kill him off, but the circumstances around this are very difficult to arrange, as the number of generals killed during the war in the west has massively declined. During WWI the British had 78 generals killed, whereas in WWII there were only 22, and the chances of a 4 or 5 star general losing his life other then from a medical condition during WWII are virtually nil. My personal opinion is that the only way I can see Mac being killed is if during his evacuation the PT boats are intercepted, and Mac is either captured or killed.

RR.

FDR does not need to look over his shoulder until late 1943. If MacArthur and not Dewey is the Republican nominee, the outcome will never be in doubt. The Republicans would run a MacArthur-Short style ticket. Their slogan would be similar to "It's All Your Fault", which will not play well with even the American Firsters.

The reason for the Generals vice Admirals is simple. An Admiral has been the Captain of a ship. The step down to President, a mortal level, is too great, when you've already been a God.

Perhaps after Lord Gort has mopped up the Japanese his talents can move on to the SWPA? It will be difficult not to see that theater taking a number of forces now.

After GEN MacArthur loses the Philippines, he'll be promoted as a modern day GEN Hull. If FDR sees fit.

In the British view, the Americans have been schooled into their place. The British press will trumpet the triumph of the Imperial martial spirit. They'll echo the sentiments of RM Goering. He said that the only American prowess is to build refrigerators. Probably even make a number of movies about it for American consumption/instruction. Sophisticated English versus American bumpkins and dolts. British opinion will demand Royal Precedence take place. It has to be as Americans are so pathetic at land war. Never mind 1775-1782 or 1812-15.

So the Americans by 1944 will be toiling and boiling. The necessity to concentrate our focus on the Pacific will form a ground swell. In order to try to win the elections in 1944, FDR will need mollify the American electorate. The Americans will continue to support the British and Canadian efforts to reclaim Europe, of course. The Republicans will be forced to run SEN Taft instead of GOV Dewey. It will be a landslide in both Houses and the Presidency. Yes. This situation will be totally different.

Yay MacArthur! LOL!!

 

[Nevarinemex]

Your post confuses me, it I get the general intent, and I like your train of thought.

The conduct of the war is one thing. What is occurring above that level is perhaps even more brutal.
The public support for the contest will be an appeal to the baser human instincts. It depends upon the
choice of who will be on the receiving end. And that could change ITTL or another TL.

Just think. Ramp Rat desires the British efforts in Malaya have held out until at least May 1942.
Subsequently, GEN MacArthur refuses to abandon the PI as being both his Duty, (dis)Honorable and
for practical purposes his Country (PI), while British Malaya remains in existence. A simple appeal to His
gigantic vanity. Problem solved, perhaps diabolically, for many parties.

In a sense, the early blunders in SE Asia brings the Allies together in the same boat. Neither the Americans
or British really want to point fingers. If the British and Dutch survive by some manner and the US becomes
"The Goat", it will have an influence on further conduct of the War. The DUKE regimes might feel in the
ascendancy where the Americans are concerned. If this comes to the fore during Arcadia, the Chiefs never mesh,
the coalition never congeals.

The personal enmity between Hitler and FDR is what hovers over the Western European Theater. While
FDR is in charge, things work well for DUKE. Should FDR become incapacitated. Henry Wallace assumes
the mantle and Stalin supplants Churchill earlier than the OTL.

 

[edgeworthy]

Two more ways to mess up railroads:

1. The British had available in their sappers' and commandoes' supplies, dating at least back to WWI and AFAIK continuing throughout WWII, thermite grenades. A thermite grenade is the ordnance of choice for spiking a cannon; the molten iron created in the extremely exothermic thermite reaction (powdered iron oxide + powdered aluminum, once ignited, results in molten iron plus white hot aluminum oxide) melts its way into the barrel-metal, permanently ruining the gun bore. Thermite's ability to weld iron/steel also makes it useful for wrecking what are supposed to be moveable steel parts, such as turnout/switch elements.

The diagram on the left is the basic British thermite grenade. Easy to use, though a bit dangerous; but very effective.

Parts of a rail switch. Note that there are several places where addition of weld-metal can permanently fix moving parts in place, or fill a gap through which the wheel flanges must move during use...in either case, making the assemblage no longer functional.

2. I don't know the extent to which Malaysian rail systems were equipped with signaling and communications that were wired through junction boxes along the right of way. If such systems existed, their destruction would hamper use of single track lines by forcing use of other communication links to manage bidirectional traffic.

Any sort of blast-ordnance in a wiring junction box will cause damage, but another option is white phosphorus, which burns hot enough to melt copper and of course burn away insulation, mounting boards and other insulative mechanical parts such as relay frames. Thermite is a "point" heat-destructor; WP is a "volume" destructor, since WP ordnance normally includes a dispersal explosive charge that violently spreads self-ignited fragments of the WP fill throughout a considerable volume if not otherwise constrained.

An interesting scene to write would be one with a Signalman jamming the points and literally de-railing the entire Japanese plan.

 

[vl100butch]

For all the talk about the UK/NL/US problems, what about the Japanese? Everything that Gort and company has accomplished so far will make Malaya a much tougher nut to crack. Will the wheels fall off the Japanese offensives in various places because don't have the logistical capability to be everyplace at once? I personally like the solution used in the time transfer with TELEC, OIF and friends, where Mac was put in charge of Continental Defense, dealing with the 48 governors.

 

[Butchpfd]

Your reply seem to me more valid when the USA is in war, up to know it is neutral.
For now they deliver, you are correct, to mainly the Commonwhealth but as well to other parties who paid the products.
The products you mentioned were paid and most of it made, even with the manufacturing problems you mentioned. They were only not delivered due to export restrictions. This export restrictions came down on a lack of trust on how the NEI would behave towards the Empire of Japan, which was a reasonable doubt given the diplomatic split of the NEI and the behaviour of Vhicy France Indo China. In OTL mostly was released and under way but never came in time or ended in the sight of the NEI and could hastely be deverted to Australia.
Next you need to see it in perspective, the material was of a considerable amount for NEI standards, not the number of material what was sent to the Sovjet Union for instance, if the USA even delevered equipment to this nation prior to December 1941.
Next to the already mentioned vehicles and aircraft. There were more Brewster Buffalo's, Catalina PBY's( Do24 supplement)and B25 bombers ordered( B10 replacement)
Any ways, this NEI material question is just a side note

No if anything the factories are producing at just above peacetime levels, but the USN has the 1938 Naval Expansion program and 1940 Two Ocean Navy Act are starting to get ships laid down the Army is getting draftees out of training and filling out existing units, The National Guard has been activated and those units need updated equipment .. Oh let's not forget shipping all has to come from the West Coast, and the U.S. Army does not have sufficient ships for it's own needs.

 

[Nevarinemex]

For all the talk about the UK/NL/US problems, what about the Japanese? Everything that Gort and company has accomplished so far will make Malaya a much tougher nut to crack. Will the wheels fall off the Japanese offensives in various places because don't have the logistical capability to be everyplace at once?

One can certainly hope so. I think that if the cards play right, then the IJA/IJN can get no further than New Britain, New Ireland and Madang, Finschafen and Lae. The troops available might be what were in the Palau's, Mariana's and Truk? Was it ADM Beatty who recommended the Iron Bottom Sound as a Fleet anchorage?

I personally like the solution used in the time transfer with TELEC, OIF and friends, where Mac was put in charge of Continental Defense, dealing with the 48 governors.

His mother would be so proud. Forty Eight (48) States seceding from the Union.

 

[lhagambia]

1941, Monday 01 December;

Lord Gort sat at his desk, having just got back from the War Council. His office door was wedged open as a procession of aides passed in and out, with composed signal notes to be signed, authorising orders to various commands. In the signal office, the teleprinter was chatting, and wireless operators in their individual little cubicles, tapped out coded messages to Hong Kong and Borneo, everyone to move onto second degree readiness, mobilisation of volunteer forces, and to the UK, India and Australia, updating on events.

And so, a chain reaction began, in Fort Canning, Percival was busy, issuing orders to III Indian Corps, to the Australians, to the Singapore garrison, dealing with issues over moving to 24 hours’ notice, confirming all leave was cancelled, and strategic points to be defended. To the RAOC and RASC to be ready for large movements of troops, and consequential high demand on their services. The redeploying of the 5th Indian HAA Regt to Northern Malaya, to defend airfields and strategic points, the 6th to Taiping, to be held in readiness of Matador possibly being called. Both were fully mobile, their guns towed on 4-wheel trailer platforms, but neither regiment was fully trained, however needs must, they’d been declared operational, and they’d have to finish their training “on the job”. Going with them was the two batteries of the 3 LAA Regt HKSRA, with their 40mm Bofors.

In Kuala Lumpur, Lt Gen Alfred Godwin-Austen was giving orders to the Indian 11th Division to be prepared to more forward into the space that may be created by vacating Australian units. And to the 9th Indian Division in Kelantan and Kuantan, to prepare defences with pre-dispositioned stores and ammunition. While parts of the 12th Indian Brigade were being ordered to move closer to the border near Betong.

In Alor Star, Maj Gen Sydney Rowell, began issuing orders, bringing units of the 8th Australian Division closer to the border, or loading vehicles and equipment onto rail stock waiting in rail sidings, all in preparation of a green light for Operation Matador. More secretively some small SOE teams began filtering into Thailand, while others already there, began readying themselves.

On Singapore Island, as in other major towns in the British Far East, the military were suddenly more prominent, sentries appearing at certain buildings, some restrictions on road traffic into certain zones. Civil defence measures were beginning to show, buildings were being given sandbag walls for extra protection, The Governor announcing a practice air raid warning, with a blackout tomorrow at 9pm, wardens given their areas to patrol. Street and shop lights being taped, hooded or simply disconnected. Glass windows taped up, with business-as-usual signs appearing. Suddenly Singapore began to display signs that a war was on.

In Hong Kong, Maj Gen Christopher Maltby was issuing orders, moving stores and equipment onto the island, mobilising the volunteers, and overseeing the evacuation of the last remaining non-garrison military personnel along with some European civilians. The Naval dockyard began readying all ships, future maintenance overhauls delayed. Some merchant ships would be leaving Hong Kong later today, and most of the rest in the next few days, bound for safer southern waters

In Borneo, the volunteer forces were being mobilised, and the denial program of destruction was being prepared, but not yet implemented, while HMS Lipis, an auxiliary patrol vessel, was sailing from Singapore tonight, with extra demolition explosives, once they had been delivered, she would wait, ready to conduct the evacuation of those deemed essential or wanting to leave.

Back in Singapore, Park was issuing his orders, getting his air groups to be ready for a maximum effort, with all possible aircraft being brought up to operational readiness, airfields being prepared, last minute efforts by construction workers to focus on completing nearly finished work, at the cost of delaying other works with long term completions. RAAF 450 Sqn was moved up to Butterworth, crammed in with the two Blenheim Sqns, having been trained with long range fuel tanks, she would be the escort for any long-range raids. RNZAF 486 Sqn had moved to Kuantan, to offer air cover to any Royal Navy sortie that might happen. Park considered these his best two squadrons, which helped underline the importance he attached to the possible operations they might support.

Gort had also agreed with Phillips, shortly before leaving the Council, on another meeting, with their aides, tomorrow afternoon to discuss more fully what co-operation the Navy could offer Gort. Commanders in the Far East took a deep breath, was this it, was war coming, or just another false alarm?

So the Kiwis of 486 squadron might get a crack at the Nells and Bettys that go after Force Z?

Good hunting you fullas!

 

[Errolwi]

I am pretty sure that there was a discussion about telephony and communications some way back in this thread and that Mr. Coxy covered within one of the chapters

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/malaya-what-if.521982/post-23818597 for the concept, some more detail later I think.

 

[HJ Tulp]

No if anything the factories are producing at just above peacetime levels, but the USN has the 1938 Naval Expansion program and 1940 Two Ocean Navy Act are starting to get ships laid down the Army is getting draftees out of training and filling out existing units, The National Guard has been activated and those units need updated equipment .. Oh let's not forget shipping all has to come from the West Coast, and the U.S. Army does not have sufficient ships for it's own needs.

You misunderstand. The orders and the production pf those weapons are as OTL. What kept them from being delivered was the lack of trust in the DEI government. If the DEI government is more clearly in the Allied camp that export ban can be lifted.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

scroll ahead to 3:40

Hi Nevarinemex, that's a new one for me, loved it,

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/malaya-what-if.521982/post-23818597 for the concept, some more detail later I think.

Hi Errolwi, well done, and there's also this bit, https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/malaya-what-if.521982/post-24192088

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Just a small, question on the side part of this TL.
Since the British, recongnised the possibility of war with the Empire of Japan earlier than in OTL. Could the British, at the end, give some background support to the armament orders the Netherlands East Indian gouvernment placed in the USA ? In OTL the material was finally released for export/transport to the NEI but too late.
After reading this TL, I assume the British might help convince the USA that the NEI is not the Vhicy French in Indo China and are on the British side but desperatly need the USA equipment.
Most if it was usefull equipment like the M3 Scoutcar, Banta Jeeps, Thompson submachine guns and .50 and .30 Brownings but as well, regarded by the USA , second rate equipment like the Marmon-HerringtonAFV's and Curtiss-Wright CW-21 & CW-22 planes. Never the less usefull equipment.
The quantities are not that disruptive in the whole 1941 era war production, but for the NEI considerabe and even if only a portion woud be delivered it would give the KNIL just the bit of extra punch power it needed in their defense of crucial airfields etc.

​

Hi Parma, well it's a direction I could take, I certainly have improved British-Dutch relations, with the formation of the Light Squadron, and HMS Durban serving with he Dutch East Indies Sqn, as well as ASDIC being installed in Dutch ships. However a thawing of American attitudes towards a Dutch administration that had previously gone out of its way to be neutral is quite a big jump, how would I manage that and what ripples might it cause. I've deliberately left the Americans acting as they did historically up to now, in part to keep ripples to a minimum, but also because the What If, is about British attempts to improve their Far Eastern defences, while still conducting the war following their historical priorities.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

100 Squadron were in the process of transferring to Beauforts, and depending on the timeframe NZ forces were training on Wellington night-time torpedo attacks in the Red Sea in early 1942.

Hi Aber, RAF 100 Sqn were due to change to Beaufort's, Australian DAP manufactured, but there had been a number of delays, and the first half a dozen that were flown to Singapore were found to have many defects and were sent back. Do you know what New Zealand Sqn was training with Wellingtons on torpedo night operations.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Write-up of Wellington torps in the Med in NZ Official History

THE TORPEDO-BOMBERS ATTACK | NZETC

Hi Errolwi, I spoke too soon, thanks for this, most interesting

 

[Aber]

Australian DAP manufactured, but there had been a number of delays, and the first half a dozen that were flown to Singapore were found to have many defects and were sent back.

More than you will ever want to know about Australian Beauforts:
http://www.adf-serials.com.au/research/Beaufort_Matters.pdf
Production faults

Although the aircraft had come directly from the APC as a new aircraft, there were a number of defects, namely:
Badly fitting windows in the cockpit rendered conversation impossible;
Badly fitting cowl gills that did not close evenly and when open more than 10 degrees produced severe buffeting.
Unequal adjustment of engine controls which had to be set ½in apart to give equal RPM;
Incorrect adjustment of oil cooler gills;
Failure of oil pressure gauge, oil temperature gauge and airscrew control meter.

Training issues

RAF and RAAF pilots were not operating the Beaufort in accordance with the Pilots Operating Notes, particularly in relation to using the carburettor and propeller feathering, taxying procedure, braking, engine ground running, fuel and oil systems, hydraulic systems and aircraft handling.

Withdrawal of Beuaforts from Malaysia may have had more to do with the challenges of type conversion in the front-line than faults in the aircraft.
Overall

Beaufort appeared much easier to fly than the Hudson; any qualified Hudson pilot could fly the Beaufort safely without further dual but Beaufort pilots who flew the Hudson experienced some difficulty.

Impact of combat

As a result of the first combat action with the Beaufort (T9543 at Kota Bharu), on 12 December 1941, Air HQ Far East requested urgent modifications to the Beaufort including doubling the thickness of the armour plate and incorporating a bullet-proof windscreen for the pilot. Modification sets were to be dispatched urgently for the five surviving Beauforts in Singapore plus any Beauforts already en-route. This was followed two days later by Milnes, the APC representative in Singapore, providing further details. He requested that all armour plate as fitted should be increased in thickness from 4mm to 9mm gauge and supplies for the under defence gun be dispatched urgently. He also advised that Perspex panels were blowing out and all retaining strips needed to be widened by 50% and the Perspex to be bolted in place. Also requested to be dispatched to Singapore were all moulded panels for the front fuselage and turret together with tail wheel struts due to failures. The APC immediately took action to improve the panel framing as suggested.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

More than you will ever want to know about Australian Beauforts:
http://www.adf-serials.com.au/research/Beaufort_Matters.pdf
Production faults

Training issues

Withdrawal of Beuaforts from Malaysia may have had more to do with the challenges of type conversion in the front-line than faults in the aircraft.
Overall

Impact of combat

Hi Aber, thank you for this, I did toy with the idea of accelerating the development of the Australian aircraft industry, but decide it was a bit to unreasonable to expect, and that it wasn't central to my theme, so the aircrew of RAF 100 Sqn will just have to suffer the Vildebeest, as they did historically.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

1941, Monday 01 December;

Reinforcements for the Army in the Philippines continued to flow, on the 18th November, convoy 4001 left Pearl Harbor, made up of the army transport President Grant, and steamers American Leader, John Lykes and Dona Nati, escorted by the Brooklyn class light cruiser USS Boise, carrying munitions and other war material, arriving in Manila on the 4th December. Leaving with them was the steamer Cape Fairweather, which although Manila bound, would call into Hong Kong first.

Also, due to arrive on the 4th December was the George G Henry, a WW1 built tanker which had left the Dutch East Indies, via Singapore, carrying 69,500 barrels of oil. She would be lucky enough to avoid the Japanese airstrikes and after discharging her entire cargo, escape on the 15th. In mid-April 1942, she would be taken in service by the US Navy, armed and renamed Victoria (AO 46).

The US Army was not alone in reinforcing the Philippines, as well as the help MacArthur was receiving, Admiral Hart’s Asiatic Fleet was also growing, abet in a more realistic way, there was only limited resources the US Navy could send. The USS Guadalupe, a newly commissioned Cimarron-class fleet replenishment oiler, had delivered six PT boats as deck cargo, which had formed Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron Three in September.

But a much more useful addition was the sixteen Salmon and Sargo class submarines of Submarine Squadron 2 that had been sent, eight arriving on the 8th November, the other’s, along with the big submarine tender, USS Holland, by the 22nd. Based at Cavite naval base, they brought the total of submarines in the Asiatic Fleet to 29. While the six short ranged S-class boats were only useful for coastal operations, the seven Porpoise, along with the Salmon and Sargo’s provided a real potent threat to any Japanese invasion fleet.

Britain had taken the decision to withdraw her garrisons and gunboats from China, Hong Kong excepted, much earlier, but finally on the 10ths November, Admiral Hart’s requests to do the same were agreed, and he’d quickly started redeploying some of his gunboats to the Philippines. He’d been able to withdraw both the big gunboats, USS Tulsa and her sister USS Asheville late spring, early summer, re-employing them on coastal patrol duties around Manila Bay.

This left just five gunboats, four on the Yangtze Patrol and one on the South China Patrol. The USS Tutuila was marooned too far up the Yangtse to escape, was moored at Chungking, the Chinese wartime Capital, and her crew evacuated, early 1942, handed over to the Nationalist Chinese Navy. Her sister, USS Wake would remain at Shanghai, with a much-reduced crew, acting as a station ship. USS Oahu and the USS Luzon, with Rear Admiral William Glassford, commander of the Yangtze Patrol onboard left Shanghai on the 28th November, bound for Manila, sailing through a typhoon, arriving on the 5th December. USS Mindanao, a sister to Luzon, based at Hong Kong, left there on the 4th December, arriving in Manila on the 10th.

And lastly, Hart had been able to get his wish to move the 4th ‘China’ Marines Regiment to the Philippines. In some haste two passenger/cargo ships of the American President Lines, the SS President Madison and SS President Harrison, were chartered by the US Navy, sent to Shanghai, where after a quick conversion to carry troops, loaded half each of the Marine Regiment, along with evacuated US Citizens, and sailed to Manila. SS Harrison arrived on the 30th November, SS President Madison on the 1st December.

What arrived was a Marine Regiment of two battalions, 1st and 2nd, headquarters company and service company totalling 44 officers and 728 men, one company short in each battalion and each company down to two platoons. Some of the missing platoons were rebuilt by disbanding the regimental band and absorbing the Marine detachment at Olongapo. The regiment’s overall shortage of manpower was due to the Marines sent out to replace the sick, service expired and transferred out, from Shanghai, had been held back in Manila to minimise the potential loss of the regiment in China. Those Marines had been formed at the beginning of May, into the 1st Special Defence Battalion, equipped with 3-inch AA artillery and heavy machine guns. At the beginning of the new year, they would be absorbed back into the 4th Marines, becoming its 3rd battalion. Little did the rank and file know of the storm that was to be unleashed on them in the coming weeks and months.