In Japan, the situation is more peculiar - a significant percentage of female mangaka in shounen and seinen magazines has existed since the eighties. It does not help the situation that with a clearer gender orientation, the very set of topics and plots is extremely blurred - as a result, plots that we would consider "female" often appear in "male" magazines (especially lately). While shoujo magazines get less attention, and there are several similar ones from shounen magazines per anime (in recent years, the situation was very difficult - especially against the backdrop of the anime boom in the 2000s). Moreover, many female mangaka deliberately look for work in male publications, because shoujo suffers from flanderization. So the first thing to do is raise the prestige of the respective magazines and convince the studios that this kind of anime is profitable.
Your Personal Pop Culture Utopia timeline
- Thread starter xie323
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Yeah… I think quite a few obviously Shoujo series have ended up on Shonen magazines(such as Weekly Shonen Jump) and a lot of weirdness
what if gargoyles where created in Japan in the 1980s by Hayao Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli
Then it probably would have still been presented through Disney, albeit in their English dub.
However, the other changes, such as an environmental message for the property, would highly depend on everything else.
Many are surprised that Banana Fish is shoujo. In fact, there are clear criteria by which the story turns out to be one way or another - only secondary signs make it possible to determine (and even then not always).
I still can't figure out why the manga adaptation of Kaleido Star ended up in a shounen magazine, and the Ginban Kaleidoscope in shoujo.
Why are you constantly asking all of these "What if Gargoyles were created by (person) in (year)" questions?
Hopefully they don’t continue spamming the thread.
If they continue, we might have to report them for spamming. Hopefully, it will not have to come down to that.
Counter -proposal: if they continue we will have to give them their proper thread to post in.
So going back wayy back to this post, I think something that could be done to also improve fanfiction's reputation and thus more support for the idea that a work can be defined beyond authorial ownership is to reframe "transformative works"(a more sophisticated term for fanfic) into the struggle for lgbtqia+ acceptance and the struggle of lgbtqia+ content creators to carve out fan spaces. It is a given rule that the vast majority of shipping fanfic tends to be homoerotic or lesbian in nature, or deal with stuff like gender identities. At the same time, shipping has an extremely bad reputation on fandom, and this has to do with flame bait debates over "who should end up with whom" that can escalate to extremely horrific levels of cyber bullying. I think something that could be done here is to have shipping discourse be less associated with toxicity and more with beautiful fanart or speculative fanfiction.
Shipping being associated with creativity over inherent toxicity is kinda the thing with shipping culture in Japan and other Asian countries, while extreme toxicity does exist(case in point: someone tried to murder a fanart creator with needles) shipping isn't seen as something that is often ridiculed or described with unnerving fetters, perhaps due to the strength of "stan" and "idol" culture in Asia, perhaps due to the fact that romance is woven into other genres more and there overall being less disassociation of romance with other genres(case in point: almost every JRPG has some sort of lovey-dovey stuff in it). Hell in the Japanese Deviantart(Pixiv), you can browse art under specific media by a "couple filter".
So can either of these things that prevent shipping culture from being ridiculed in the east be replicated in the west on a mass scale? I don't think so. Having an obsessive celebrity culture is not really a good thing, having romance being woven into stories more might work.....but it's generally shunned due to stigma against female-oriented works of fiction. While that is more the result of sexism in the entertainment industry, there have been certain efforts to shoehorn romances in more broader appeal works or retcon specific plot points to have it revolve around specific relationships that end up falling extremely flat, which builds more extreme skepticism. And this is not getting into the fact that Japanese Anime and JRPGs and Chinese Wuxia genre, Wuxia based RPGs, light novels, and tv shows all have specific tropes and cultural conventions that make weaving in a love story to broad-appeal works more workable and palatable in the east that can't be replicated in the west.
So how do we "de-stigmatize" shipping culture? Have more awareness of the importance of fanfic and shipping culture to the fight for LGBTQIA+ representation. During the 2000s when the fight for same sex marriage in the US was raging on, it is discovered that fanfiction has been used as a means to carve out space for lgbtqia+ folks to express themselves through the fiction they consume and reproduce. I think maybe there be even more awareness of the goings on in the Xena fandom or other fandoms with a huge LGBTQIA+ presence that it reaches the media on a large scale. Perhaps we could get a even earlier Korrasami sort of moment in this alternate reality. Thus shipping is associated less with extreme toxicity and more the struggle for lgbtqia+ rights. Fandom is consequently viewed as empowering rather than excessive toxicity or low brow culture.
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I see a couple of flaws in this argument that otherwise I find quite interesting.
The first one is pretty obvious: it only addresses the issue of ships, as if that's the only reason for fanfiction's bad reputation, but in fact it's just one of a long list of reasons. So in the best of cases it is only a proposal that provides a partial solution (to the extent that it only deals with one of the reasons for criticism).
The rest of the problems surely continue to exist or are exacerbated even more in this situation in which the fanfiction decides to focus on one of the things for which it is criticized.
I'm skeptical that addressing just one of the reasons for the bad image of fanfiction, while ignoring the rest, will cause a chain reaction that causes the rest of the problems to solve themselves or stop caring for the public. Even if I think the public has too many swallows.
Or that this will somehow cause publishers to decide to listen to fanfiction authors and give them content that resembles what they write. Hell, OTL is full of examples of production companies ignoring the wishes of their target audience and still managing to succeed and get away with it.
To cite the most visible example: Disney decanonized the entire Star Wars Expanded Universe. What did the people do? Complain on social networks... before continuing to checkout to buy everything Disney brought out. THAT is what production companies like Disney look at. Not the fact that people complain, but the balance of accounts.
In addition to that, as I developed in another topic about GOT, the producers usually apply a very selective vision: all those who support their works are educated people with good taste, and proof of their success. While all those who criticize and complain are "trolls, social scum, and sore losers, who are good to ignore because they are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things."
And I doubt that in TTL attempts to call for boycotts would get any different result than in OTL (i.e., the boycotters being universally ridiculed, the boycott being a flop, and the "boycotted" production being a box office/release day hit). its official publication).
The second is that there is the added risk that fanfiction will be perceived as even more toxic than OTL. I don't know if I mentioned it in the "reasons why people criticize fanfiction" list, but one of the standouts is the perception (justified or not) that the author is using fanfiction as an excuse to shoehorn their political views. the reader. As well as go on a tirade about real world political issues that have nothing to do with the universe of the story.
Let's remember that many original stories are harshly criticized for the perception that the author is doing this, and it is even worse if it is a fanfic, because the idea that it is disrespectful to the author is added. (Sometimes you go for the solution of saying "fuck you" to the author and doing exactly that in an attempt to "piss" him but that's rare.)
(I am not so sure that the bulk of shipping is LGBT in nature: I mean that I doubt that it is the majority of shipping, not that I doubt that such shipping exists).
Assuming the same OTL phenomenon of "politicization of fiction" and "politicization of sexuality" occurs, the fact that fanfiction focuses its efforts on LGBT activism is likely to cause the same problem as now. That is, that the LGBT issue is perceived as a political issue and, therefore, fanfiction still gets the bad reputation of being "that place where people force their political grievances down the throats of unsuspecting readers."
Without forgetting that it can cause satiety. We have seen it with various phenomena. The zombie boom, the fantasy world boom, the urban fantasy boom, and so on. There comes a point where people get fed up with the same kind of stories and move away from them in search of new things. In this case where fanfiction is supposed to focus mainly on LGBT content, it is likely that sooner or later it will happen, as it would happen if it focused on zombie stories, or as it happened when LGBT people got fed up with not appearing and started creating your own content.
On another tangent: I would love to see a pop culture timeline were fan fiction got its start as an effort to rewrite the role of the given minority character or the ethnic stereotype comic relief into actually running the show instead of the straight white Anglo macho hero. Think of a series of fanfic episodes of TOS Star Trek where despite the actions of Kirk, McCoy and Spock the Enterprise is invariably saved by Lt. Uhura's negotiating skills.
Of course, there will still be shipping or Mary Sue/Marry Stu power dreams, but the main appeal of fan fiction would be that ethnic, gay, transsexual, disabled or otherwise different writers would offer a glimpse of a present where characters like him/her/their are not just stereotypes for comic relief or token background characters showing token inclusivity. Instead they would be equal or even superior to the main protagonist(s), telling their ethnic, gay, transsexual, disabled or otherwise different readers that they themselves could be like that too.
Lke this, fan fiction would eventually be recognized as a valid expression of minority pride, social activism and liberation. Of course, there will still be a lot of bad fanfic, but there will be just as much examples showing that not all fan fiction is bad per se and some fan fiction even deserves recognition. Even if only as a mirror of the society it is written in.
Eventually this would 'make Fan Ownership or Fan Stake a thing' as eventually some court would have to decide whether the original production company has the right to keep a certain minority character in its original role, even if this role is playing into degrading stereotypes or if fans have the right to share their ideas of a better role both for the character as for the readers who recognize themselves in it.
Long time, no post. Glad to see this thread is still ongoing.
For this addition to my own personal pop culture utopia, we tackle a favorite hobby of mine, role playing games.
At some point early point in his life, Phillip Barker rejects his father’s Nazi sympathies. (1) Otherwise, his early life remains much the same - he becomes interested in languages at an early age, he plays the same “wargames” with his toy soldiers, he grows up on more or less the same fairy stories, history and classical literature; and he starts imagining his fantasy world just as in reality around 1940.
In college, Phil studies linguistics, becomes active in the same small press publications, still goes off to India and converts to Islam and takes the name Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman, which he generally abbreviates as M.A.R. He goes to grad school and is involved in the same proto-gaming group at Berkeley with other SF fans and linguists, expanding greatly on his world of Tékumel, but with some minor changes. (2) He remains at Berkeley until accepting a job the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis in 1970. (3) While there, he becomes tangentially involved in the early Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA), as well as continuing to develop both Tékumel and his proto-game.
Meanwhile, in 1971, shortly after publishing the game Chainmail (4), Ernest Gary Gygax has a heart attack and passes away. (5) These rules become especially popular in Midwestern wargaming circles, coming to the attention of several game designers and players, including both Phil Barker and Dave Arneson, as well as Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick, and Marc Miller.
Both Arneson and Barker begin adapting ideas from Chainmail to their existing gaming groups, developing their own versions of the game.
During the summer of 1972, while Barker is visiting friends in Berkeley, he attends an SCA event. (6) While there, he introduces several SCA acquaintances to his latest Chainmail influenced version of his old proto-game. Among the people he introduces to it are Sir Steven MacEanruig and Comte Stefan de Lorraine - mundanely known (as members of the SCA might put it) as Steve Henderson and Steve Perrin, respectively.
Henderson and Perrin like the game but find the combat system to be unrealistic. They begin modifying the rules based on their experience with SCA fighting.
In 1973, Dave Arneson’s game, now titled The Fantasy Game, comes to the attention of Jim Dunnigan at Simulations Publications, Inc., who offers to publish it. The fantasy Game, popularly known as “TFG” is now considered the first set of true RPG rules. (7)
There's a lot more to come on this one, but this is a good stopping point.....
1) His father, Loris Barker, was apparently very active in the German-American Bund and was connected to the Silvershirts/Loyalty League organization. Some people have claimed he did reject his father’s white supremacy, and that the Nazi sympathizing novel he wrote was some kind of prank or hoax. Here, he actually does reject them.
2) The socio-cultural elements influenced by his ideology are at the very least strongly toned down, if not eliminated.
3) In reality, he taught at the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill University after Berkeley until moving to Minneapolis in 1972.
4) What we know as the 1st edition rules. In this time line, they remain the only edition.
5) Switching Don Kaye’s 1975 heart attack for Gary’s here.
6) The August Purgatorio Coronation Festival, held on July 31, 1972 in Oakland.
7) This was the original working title of the D&D rules.
For this addition to my own personal pop culture utopia, we tackle a favorite hobby of mine, role playing games.
At some point early point in his life, Phillip Barker rejects his father’s Nazi sympathies. (1) Otherwise, his early life remains much the same - he becomes interested in languages at an early age, he plays the same “wargames” with his toy soldiers, he grows up on more or less the same fairy stories, history and classical literature; and he starts imagining his fantasy world just as in reality around 1940.
In college, Phil studies linguistics, becomes active in the same small press publications, still goes off to India and converts to Islam and takes the name Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman, which he generally abbreviates as M.A.R. He goes to grad school and is involved in the same proto-gaming group at Berkeley with other SF fans and linguists, expanding greatly on his world of Tékumel, but with some minor changes. (2) He remains at Berkeley until accepting a job the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis in 1970. (3) While there, he becomes tangentially involved in the early Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA), as well as continuing to develop both Tékumel and his proto-game.
Meanwhile, in 1971, shortly after publishing the game Chainmail (4), Ernest Gary Gygax has a heart attack and passes away. (5) These rules become especially popular in Midwestern wargaming circles, coming to the attention of several game designers and players, including both Phil Barker and Dave Arneson, as well as Loren Wiseman, Frank Chadwick, and Marc Miller.
Both Arneson and Barker begin adapting ideas from Chainmail to their existing gaming groups, developing their own versions of the game.
During the summer of 1972, while Barker is visiting friends in Berkeley, he attends an SCA event. (6) While there, he introduces several SCA acquaintances to his latest Chainmail influenced version of his old proto-game. Among the people he introduces to it are Sir Steven MacEanruig and Comte Stefan de Lorraine - mundanely known (as members of the SCA might put it) as Steve Henderson and Steve Perrin, respectively.
Henderson and Perrin like the game but find the combat system to be unrealistic. They begin modifying the rules based on their experience with SCA fighting.
In 1973, Dave Arneson’s game, now titled The Fantasy Game, comes to the attention of Jim Dunnigan at Simulations Publications, Inc., who offers to publish it. The fantasy Game, popularly known as “TFG” is now considered the first set of true RPG rules. (7)
There's a lot more to come on this one, but this is a good stopping point.....
1) His father, Loris Barker, was apparently very active in the German-American Bund and was connected to the Silvershirts/Loyalty League organization. Some people have claimed he did reject his father’s white supremacy, and that the Nazi sympathizing novel he wrote was some kind of prank or hoax. Here, he actually does reject them.
2) The socio-cultural elements influenced by his ideology are at the very least strongly toned down, if not eliminated.
3) In reality, he taught at the Institute of Islamic Studies at McGill University after Berkeley until moving to Minneapolis in 1972.
4) What we know as the 1st edition rules. In this time line, they remain the only edition.
5) Switching Don Kaye’s 1975 heart attack for Gary’s here.
6) The August Purgatorio Coronation Festival, held on July 31, 1972 in Oakland.
7) This was the original working title of the D&D rules.
Sorry? I'm not following your question.... What does what give to whom?
Continuing from one of my earlier posts, several more (mostly) film related bits and bobs:
Bela Lugosi has a non-fatal heart attack in 1956. He is hospitalized and unable to complete filming for Grave Robbers from Outer Space. Ed Wood uses previously shot footage of Lugosi as well as using Tom Mason as a fake Shemp. After recovering, Lugosi goes on to appear in several more Ed Wood films, including The Ghoul Goes West, Ghouls of the Moon, and The Final Curtain (1) before having his second, and this time fatal, heart attack in 1962.
On May 19, 1943, the USS PC-815 is sunk by a Japanese Submarine, with a loss of all hands – including commanding officer Lt. Lafayette Ronald Hubbard. (2) Dianetics and Battlefield Earth, two of the worst books I’ve ever read (I actually managed to finished the latter) are never written. Scientology does not exist and has no influence over anyone in the entertainment industry.
Don Bluth never gets his hands on Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH. His abominable adaptation the Secret of NIMH is never made. Instead, Don Bluth Productions first feature film is East of the Sun and West of the Moon. (3) His career is otherwise largely unaffected.
For the film version of The Plague Dogs, Martin Rosen retains the original ending as written by Richard Adams and the film . (4) Rosen goes on to direct several other animated films, in the same style, including, Fantastic Mr. Fox, The Rats of NIMH series (5), and all seven of The Animals of Farthing Wood series.
1) All actual titles of planned projects.
2) OTL the USS PC-815 “engaged” what was most likely a product of Hubbard’s imagination.
3) The second film the studio planned to produce. It fell through due to financial problems.
4) With the much happier ending, the film is far more successful than it was OTL.
5) This includes all three of the books, and this version retains the original titles, remains true to both the atmosphere and plot of the stories, and doesn’t introduce the horrible supernatural elements a la The Secret of NIMH.
Bela Lugosi has a non-fatal heart attack in 1956. He is hospitalized and unable to complete filming for Grave Robbers from Outer Space. Ed Wood uses previously shot footage of Lugosi as well as using Tom Mason as a fake Shemp. After recovering, Lugosi goes on to appear in several more Ed Wood films, including The Ghoul Goes West, Ghouls of the Moon, and The Final Curtain (1) before having his second, and this time fatal, heart attack in 1962.
On May 19, 1943, the USS PC-815 is sunk by a Japanese Submarine, with a loss of all hands – including commanding officer Lt. Lafayette Ronald Hubbard. (2) Dianetics and Battlefield Earth, two of the worst books I’ve ever read (I actually managed to finished the latter) are never written. Scientology does not exist and has no influence over anyone in the entertainment industry.
Don Bluth never gets his hands on Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH. His abominable adaptation the Secret of NIMH is never made. Instead, Don Bluth Productions first feature film is East of the Sun and West of the Moon. (3) His career is otherwise largely unaffected.
For the film version of The Plague Dogs, Martin Rosen retains the original ending as written by Richard Adams and the film . (4) Rosen goes on to direct several other animated films, in the same style, including, Fantastic Mr. Fox, The Rats of NIMH series (5), and all seven of The Animals of Farthing Wood series.
1) All actual titles of planned projects.
2) OTL the USS PC-815 “engaged” what was most likely a product of Hubbard’s imagination.
3) The second film the studio planned to produce. It fell through due to financial problems.
4) With the much happier ending, the film is far more successful than it was OTL.
5) This includes all three of the books, and this version retains the original titles, remains true to both the atmosphere and plot of the stories, and doesn’t introduce the horrible supernatural elements a la The Secret of NIMH.
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