YOU get to make a CIVIL WAR!
- Thread starter The Abyss
- Start date
TheGrandVizier
Banned
Issue: Vladimir Putin abuse of power
Location: All of Russia
Pro: Russian government
Con: Auto-proclaimed secessionist republics of Daghestan, Osettia, Karelia, Tuva, Sakha, Far East, Chechenya, Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, Komi, Saint Peterburg, Siberian Republic (central russia)
In 2007 Putin started abusing his power and the Chechens launched terror strikes again and many republics were angered since Putin was more corrupt and rich and he did nothing to stop hostage takings by the Chechens (new tactic). Many seceded, some united together, and all started being scared of the other. The Russian Federation is composed of the North Caucasus and far western russia up to Saint Petersburg.
Location: All of Russia
Pro: Russian government
Con: Auto-proclaimed secessionist republics of Daghestan, Osettia, Karelia, Tuva, Sakha, Far East, Chechenya, Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, Komi, Saint Peterburg, Siberian Republic (central russia)
In 2007 Putin started abusing his power and the Chechens launched terror strikes again and many republics were angered since Putin was more corrupt and rich and he did nothing to stop hostage takings by the Chechens (new tactic). Many seceded, some united together, and all started being scared of the other. The Russian Federation is composed of the North Caucasus and far western russia up to Saint Petersburg.
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2nd Turkish-Armenian War
Issue: Independence
Location: Turkey
Pro
emocratic Republic of Armenia
Con:Republic of Turkey
In 1962 a group of Armenian refugees with limited backing from the soviet Union, as well as other Arab states setup the 2nd Republic of Armenia. Turkey was quick to arms trying to take over the land as quickly as possibly. However despite the Turks being better armed, and had superior numbers the Armenians repeled close to every attack the Turks made, thanks in most part to Soviet RPG's, assault rifles, and land mines.
By 1965 the Turks focused on a general bombardment. Using its air force, something the Armenian's lacked, to attack any and all areas the Armenians could use.
Issue: Independence
Location: Turkey
Pro
emocratic Republic of ArmeniaCon:Republic of Turkey
In 1962 a group of Armenian refugees with limited backing from the soviet Union, as well as other Arab states setup the 2nd Republic of Armenia. Turkey was quick to arms trying to take over the land as quickly as possibly. However despite the Turks being better armed, and had superior numbers the Armenians repeled close to every attack the Turks made, thanks in most part to Soviet RPG's, assault rifles, and land mines.
By 1965 the Turks focused on a general bombardment. Using its air force, something the Armenian's lacked, to attack any and all areas the Armenians could use.
Shope
Banned
Issue: Counter-counter-revolution
Location: Kampuchea
Pro: The Vietnamese puppet state
Con: The Glorious and Patriotic Khmer Rouge
Pol Pot, under the encouragement of U.S. President Gary Hart, leads his brave troops from the jungles and into the cities, vanquishes the corrupt lackeys of the Outlanders, resumes his grand experiment, and brings to mankind a shining example of simple, peaceful, rustic life--a life free from the idylls of modernism, cubism, postmodernism, DaDaism, nadaism, feminism, cyborgism, capitalism, elitism, and urbanism.
Afterwards, in the West, Neo-Romanticism sweeps aside all of the crybaby/ victimology critical schools and a golden age of peace and prosperity ensues worldwide.
Location: Kampuchea
Pro: The Vietnamese puppet state
Con: The Glorious and Patriotic Khmer Rouge
Pol Pot, under the encouragement of U.S. President Gary Hart, leads his brave troops from the jungles and into the cities, vanquishes the corrupt lackeys of the Outlanders, resumes his grand experiment, and brings to mankind a shining example of simple, peaceful, rustic life--a life free from the idylls of modernism, cubism, postmodernism, DaDaism, nadaism, feminism, cyborgism, capitalism, elitism, and urbanism.
Afterwards, in the West, Neo-Romanticism sweeps aside all of the crybaby/ victimology critical schools and a golden age of peace and prosperity ensues worldwide.
NapoleonXIV
Banned
Issue:Independence
Location:Iraq
Pro:The Kurds and the Shi'a of Iraq
Con:Saddam Hussein
After years of infighting the two disparate groups finally decide to get together and start a full scale civil war against Saddam in 1992. Hussein, fresh from disciplinary invasions of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia on secret orders from the newly elected President Bush (the elder) appeals to his new American ally.
American "advisors" are sent in 1993 and by 1995 a full scale new Vietnam is brewing. One major difference, however, is that Saddam is now more fully ensconced in power than ever, due mainly to his political acumen and the complete and absolute support he is receiving from President George H Bush and especially his son and Secy of State George W., who has become possibly the closest friend the arab ruler has.
Location:Iraq
Pro:The Kurds and the Shi'a of Iraq
Con:Saddam Hussein
After years of infighting the two disparate groups finally decide to get together and start a full scale civil war against Saddam in 1992. Hussein, fresh from disciplinary invasions of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia on secret orders from the newly elected President Bush (the elder) appeals to his new American ally.
American "advisors" are sent in 1993 and by 1995 a full scale new Vietnam is brewing. One major difference, however, is that Saddam is now more fully ensconced in power than ever, due mainly to his political acumen and the complete and absolute support he is receiving from President George H Bush and especially his son and Secy of State George W., who has become possibly the closest friend the arab ruler has.
Issue: Aboriginal rights
Location: Central Australia
Pro: The Australian government
Con: The secessionist People's Arrente Republic
During the 1950s, Maoism becomes a popular ideology amongst Australia's disenfranchised Aboriginal people, due to political and monetary support from China. A campaign of terrorist bombings by the Aboriginal Liberation Front begins in earnest in 1958, leading to a massive crackdown on Aboriginal rights by the Menzies government. ALF rebels seize Alice Springs, and declare the socialist People's Arrente Republic as an Aboriginal homeland. The republic is crushed within weeks, despite Soviet support to the Aboriginal rebels.
Location: Central Australia
Pro: The Australian government
Con: The secessionist People's Arrente Republic
During the 1950s, Maoism becomes a popular ideology amongst Australia's disenfranchised Aboriginal people, due to political and monetary support from China. A campaign of terrorist bombings by the Aboriginal Liberation Front begins in earnest in 1958, leading to a massive crackdown on Aboriginal rights by the Menzies government. ALF rebels seize Alice Springs, and declare the socialist People's Arrente Republic as an Aboriginal homeland. The republic is crushed within weeks, despite Soviet support to the Aboriginal rebels.
Irish Civil War
Early 20th century
Issue: Home Rule for Ireland
Location: Ireland and Great Britain
Pro: (political) Many Irish Catholics, British Government, Irish Americans
Pro: (Combatants) Irish Republican Brotherhood, Irish Citizen's Army
Conspolitical) British Army, Ulster Protestants
Cons: (Combatants) Ulster militant groups
When Home Rule was voted in, and the Irish Protestants vowed to resist with force, Officers that did not live in Ulster were not given a choice to opt out of possible opperations to supress the Ulster resistance. Some leave the service, and the army is effectively paralyzed and unable to enforce the will of Parliament. The navy is unaffected--and will remain so as long as it's not directed to intervene.
The Orangemen refuse to acknowlege Home Rule, and resist with force. The various Irish independence movements, acting in support of a British law for a change, fight--after being declared to have police powers by the home rule government (which is primarily southern due to the refusal of the north to participate in the new government.)
Ulster sympathisers see that the Ulster forces get military support, while the British govrnment is forced to support the Irish parliament with supplies.
Making matters more complex, volenteers from America join the fight against Ulster.
In the middle of all this, Archduke Franz Ferdinand is assassinated, and matters spiral out of control in Europe. Britain is more cautious about entry into the war, with a mess in Ireland.
Now the British government needs to try to bring about peace, and fast.
In the end, I suspect that a partition is worked out, but some of the 6 counties of modern Northern Ireland are part of the Irish Free State.
RL notes: there were armed groups in Ulster pledging to fight to defeat Home Rule no matter the cost, and they were much better armed than the rebels in Easter, 1916.
There was also serious doubt about the willingness of the British Army to fight if Ulster did fight.
With research, this might be worth developing--any thoughts?
Early 20th century
Issue: Home Rule for Ireland
Location: Ireland and Great Britain
Pro: (political) Many Irish Catholics, British Government, Irish Americans
Pro: (Combatants) Irish Republican Brotherhood, Irish Citizen's Army
Cons
political) British Army, Ulster ProtestantsCons: (Combatants) Ulster militant groups
When Home Rule was voted in, and the Irish Protestants vowed to resist with force, Officers that did not live in Ulster were not given a choice to opt out of possible opperations to supress the Ulster resistance. Some leave the service, and the army is effectively paralyzed and unable to enforce the will of Parliament. The navy is unaffected--and will remain so as long as it's not directed to intervene.
The Orangemen refuse to acknowlege Home Rule, and resist with force. The various Irish independence movements, acting in support of a British law for a change, fight--after being declared to have police powers by the home rule government (which is primarily southern due to the refusal of the north to participate in the new government.)
Ulster sympathisers see that the Ulster forces get military support, while the British govrnment is forced to support the Irish parliament with supplies.
Making matters more complex, volenteers from America join the fight against Ulster.
In the middle of all this, Archduke Franz Ferdinand is assassinated, and matters spiral out of control in Europe. Britain is more cautious about entry into the war, with a mess in Ireland.
Now the British government needs to try to bring about peace, and fast.
In the end, I suspect that a partition is worked out, but some of the 6 counties of modern Northern Ireland are part of the Irish Free State.
RL notes: there were armed groups in Ulster pledging to fight to defeat Home Rule no matter the cost, and they were much better armed than the rebels in Easter, 1916.
There was also serious doubt about the willingness of the British Army to fight if Ulster did fight.
With research, this might be worth developing--any thoughts?
general_tiu
Banned
Here's mine:
Year: 2004-2005
Issue: Election issues
Location: Manila, Philippines
Pros: Philippine Government and some foreign allies
Cons: Those leftists with their Islamist allies and some foreign backers
Year: 2004-2005
Issue: Election issues
Location: Manila, Philippines
Pros: Philippine Government and some foreign allies
Cons: Those leftists with their Islamist allies and some foreign backers
Issue: Slavery in the South.
Location: Mainly the South, although some fighting in Pennsylvania.
Pro: USA.
Con: Confederates.
Hang on...
Scratch that one.
Issue: Scottish Independence.
Location: Scottish border.
Pro: British Government.
Con: SNP radicals.
Year: 1997.
POD: Scottish radicals manage to incite the majority of Scotland into a war with the rest of the UK, after they claim that the Scottish Independence referendum (Yes, it happened OTL) did actually pass (Yes, a majority voted in OTL) but HMGov rigged it to stop their oil going.
Location: Mainly the South, although some fighting in Pennsylvania.
Pro: USA.
Con: Confederates.
Hang on...
Scratch that one.
Issue: Scottish Independence.
Location: Scottish border.
Pro: British Government.
Con: SNP radicals.
Year: 1997.
POD: Scottish radicals manage to incite the majority of Scotland into a war with the rest of the UK, after they claim that the Scottish Independence referendum (Yes, it happened OTL) did actually pass (Yes, a majority voted in OTL) but HMGov rigged it to stop their oil going.
NHBL said:Early 20th century
Issue: Home Rule for Ireland
Location: Ireland and Great Britain
Pro: (political) Many Irish Catholics, British Government, Irish Americans
Pro: (Combatants) Irish Republican Brotherhood, Irish Citizen's Army
Cons
Cons: (Combatants) Ulster militant groups
When Home Rule was voted in, and the Irish Protestants vowed to resist with force, Officers that did not live in Ulster were not given a choice to opt out of possible opperations to supress the Ulster resistance. Some leave the service, and the army is effectively paralyzed and unable to enforce the will of Parliament. The navy is unaffected--and will remain so as long as it's not directed to intervene.
The Orangemen refuse to acknowlege Home Rule, and resist with force. The various Irish independence movements, acting in support of a British law for a change, fight--after being declared to have police powers by the home rule government (which is primarily southern due to the refusal of the north to participate in the new government.)
Ulster sympathisers see that the Ulster forces get military support, while the British govrnment is forced to support the Irish parliament with supplies.
Making matters more complex, volenteers from America join the fight against Ulster.
In the middle of all this, Archduke Franz Ferdinand is assassinated, and matters spiral out of control in Europe. Britain is more cautious about entry into the war, with a mess in Ireland.
Now the British government needs to try to bring about peace, and fast.
In the end, I suspect that a partition is worked out, but some of the 6 counties of modern Northern Ireland are part of the Irish Free State.
RL notes: there were armed groups in Ulster pledging to fight to defeat Home Rule no matter the cost, and they were much better armed than the rebels in Easter, 1916.
There was also serious doubt about the willingness of the British Army to fight if Ulster did fight.
With research, this might be worth developing--any thoughts?
NHBL
Could well be very messy. The Unionists had a majority of the military forces in their region and it also contained the bulk of the industry in Ireland. They would be able to put up a lot of resistance to southern attacks and, as you say would be able to gain support from sympathisers elsewhere. Also public opinion would be polarised once reports of massacres of southern Protestants [real or propaganda] start spreading. It wouldn't be very nice for the northern Catholics either.
I actually suspect the British government wouldn't take such a hard line on the issue. Doubt if they would have the support for such a programme of forcing the north into the Dublin Parliament. The Tories would be against it and so would any moderates on the issue. Not to mention the army.
You might get a clash like this, with some support for the south from Britain, if say on a different issue. If the Protestants were offered exemption from the Dublin Parliament but hard-liners insisted on something excessive, like all 10 Ulster provinces being included in the opt-out. However even then it would be very decisive.
Unless you have other changes on the continent I think you will see a quick German victory. Probably not in 14 but a year or two later. This will have a very big effect on the world.
Steve
Thanks--nice feedback
In addition to the majority of the military forces, the Ulster Unionists were much better armed. The weapons were illeagal, just as the IRB's weapons in the south, but ignored by the government. I know they had at least some heavy weapons, and a lot of rifles came from the same source as the Republican firces to the south: Germany. Interesting how both sides of a possible Irish distrubance came from the same place...
Sure, there would be reports of southern Protestants killed--and Northern Catholics.
The Ulster Protestants could, IMHO, very easily end up demanding that all 10 counties be included in the opt out. I do think, given histopry, that the British army would be a rather unreliable instrument for supressing the north, at least at first. With time, I'm sure some units could be assembled--but by that time, war is breaking out in Europe if notheing else changes. The Curragh “Mutiny” of March 1914 seems to be the logical POD, so the Great War is only months away. Of course, other nation's diplomatic positions may well change if Britian has an ongoing mess on hand.
As for industry, the majority of the industry is indeed in the north, especially Belfast, but perhaps vulnerable to sabotage--pr perhaps not, I'm not sure. One place that would certainly get British protection, no matter how much they oterhwise stayed clear militarily of the mess, would be the shipyards--especially since they built some of the Royal Navy's ships. If a pre-dreadnought or armored cruiser was under repair there, all the more important to secure it, lest the Ulster rebels seize it to bombard Catholic forces. Of course, if they did do something that foolish, then all of a sudden, the Royal Navy will be doing something about it.
I can see American aid from Irish American groups flowing freely to Dublin and Cork--perhaps not LOTS, but symbolic.
I'm going to develop this a bit more, then try it as a seperate thread in a few days.
In addition to the majority of the military forces, the Ulster Unionists were much better armed. The weapons were illeagal, just as the IRB's weapons in the south, but ignored by the government. I know they had at least some heavy weapons, and a lot of rifles came from the same source as the Republican firces to the south: Germany. Interesting how both sides of a possible Irish distrubance came from the same place...
Sure, there would be reports of southern Protestants killed--and Northern Catholics.
The Ulster Protestants could, IMHO, very easily end up demanding that all 10 counties be included in the opt out. I do think, given histopry, that the British army would be a rather unreliable instrument for supressing the north, at least at first. With time, I'm sure some units could be assembled--but by that time, war is breaking out in Europe if notheing else changes. The Curragh “Mutiny” of March 1914 seems to be the logical POD, so the Great War is only months away. Of course, other nation's diplomatic positions may well change if Britian has an ongoing mess on hand.
As for industry, the majority of the industry is indeed in the north, especially Belfast, but perhaps vulnerable to sabotage--pr perhaps not, I'm not sure. One place that would certainly get British protection, no matter how much they oterhwise stayed clear militarily of the mess, would be the shipyards--especially since they built some of the Royal Navy's ships. If a pre-dreadnought or armored cruiser was under repair there, all the more important to secure it, lest the Ulster rebels seize it to bombard Catholic forces. Of course, if they did do something that foolish, then all of a sudden, the Royal Navy will be doing something about it.
I can see American aid from Irish American groups flowing freely to Dublin and Cork--perhaps not LOTS, but symbolic.
I'm going to develop this a bit more, then try it as a seperate thread in a few days.
stevep said: