WWII without Hitler

This would be a giant clusterfuck. A TL to really fuck up Europe prior to WW1.

Lets just say that a few radical nationalists (maybe Schlageter) kill some French soldiers and bureaucrats in a guerillaesque fashion.

The French army, like most armies at the time, would have been completely overwhelmed. This would have likely caused heavy handed actions hurting and killing civilians. IOTL 137 civilians died, lets just say ITTL this number is higher. 700-800 Germans are summarily executed only stiffening the resistance.

Reichswehr and paramiltitary formations start operating and the death toll on both sides rises. Sure, the Germans don't have the munition supplies for a serious campaign but they have the necessary reserves and manpower to turn this whole affair into something equivalent to a war.

Neither Great Britain nor the USA would help the French, especially not if the civilian casualties are steadily rising.

What are France and Belgium supposed to do? Send their armies deeper and deeper into a hostile Germany?

Hold on... wasn't the german army pretty much stripped of heavy weapons and aircraft by this point? If so, what would these rioters have? Rifles, some MGs and mortars, mayeb some leftover light cannons?
 

Anchises

Banned
Hold on... wasn't the german army pretty much stripped of heavy weapons and aircraft by this point? If so, what would these rioters have? Rifles, some MGs and mortars, mayeb some leftover light cannons?

Sure. There is no way for them to win conventionally.

However if they manage to create the appearance of war they have already win. The occupation was stinging humiliation for France and Germany IOTL. Just imagine what this would be ITTL.
 
However if they manage to create the appearance of war they have already win. The occupation was stinging humiliation for France and Germany IOTL. Just imagine what this would be ITTL.

Not so sure it would end well for Germany. With the wounds and anger that created the Treaty of Versailes very fresh in a France and Belgium still burying their dead, I don't think this time they would stop before Berlin, tbh. As for the image of "civilian casualties are steadily rising" we are discussing a large, armed mob, not "civilians" per se, that wants to continue the war. Imho, France would first crush them, then roll on into Germany. The US would too far to intervene in any way. I agree the UK would not send troops, but might use the RAF to support.

How far would France go? It depends on the germans, I think. Any kind of hard resistance that kills french troops would only keep the frencch going. The best bet would be a quick surrender, but who would do it? The leadership of this mob?...
 

Anchises

Banned
Not so sure it would end well for Germany. With the wounds and anger that created the Treaty of Versailes very fresh in a France and Belgium still burying their dead, I don't think this time they would stop before Berlin, tbh. As for the image of "civilian casualties are steadily rising" we are discussing a large, armed mob, not "civilians" per se, that wants to continue the war. Imho, France would first crush them, then roll on into Germany. The US would too far to intervene in any way. I agree the UK would not send troops, but might use the RAF to support.

How far would France go? It depends on the germans, I think. Any kind of hard resistance that kills french troops would only keep the frencch going. The best bet would be a quick surrender, but who would do it? The leadership of this mob?...

The Reichswehr and the black Reichswehr weren't a mob.They were organized and had a reliable command structure.

Civilian resistance will mainly consist of sabotage and scorched earth tactics.

And sure, France could push towards Berlin (with not soooo low casualties). Every railway worker between the French army and Berlin will delay their advance. They will have to confiscate certain materials, goods and animals and there will be inevitable civilian deaths. IOTL 178 people died, how many people will die here?

And how is France going to maintain the occupation? And pay for it? They just vindicated the radical right and probably managed to mobilize the radical left.

Mobilizing the army will be expensive. The USA will be even more insistent on immediate repayment of loans while GB won't lift a finger for this folly.

The Germans on the other hand will be ready to go full Taliban. All this far right nuts actually were right. France actually tries to grab even more land after Versailles.

I don't see this ending with a triumphant French victory after they march into Berlin. Even if the Weimar government capitulates, they would be largely irrelevant by this point anyway.
 
Hugenberg and the dvnp might be given the key to the reichstag. they supported the monarchy expansionism and a get the Jews out don’t kill them, policy. Perhaps strong support for the anti soviet Russians, make The comrades paranoid fears real.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
This would be a giant clusterfuck. A TL to really fuck up Europe prior to WW1.

Lets just say that a few radical nationalists (maybe Schlageter) kill some French soldiers and bureaucrats in a guerillaesque fashion.

The French army, like most armies at the time, would have been completely overwhelmed. This would have likely caused heavy handed actions hurting and killing civilians. IOTL 137 civilians died, lets just say ITTL this number is higher. 700-800 Germans are summarily executed only stiffening the resistance.

Reichswehr and paramiltitary formations start operating and the death toll on both sides rises. Sure, the Germans don't have the munition supplies for a serious campaign but they have the necessary reserves and manpower to turn this whole affair into something equivalent to a war.

Neither Great Britain nor the USA would help the French, especially not if the civilian casualties are steadily rising.

What are France and Belgium supposed to do? Send their armies deeper and deeper into a hostile Germany?
I feel at this point the best option would be to withdraw immediately if they are feeling merciful, or loot everything they can carry and withdraw after that if they were feeling vindictive.
 
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