Ww2 Allied victory without USA?

Ww2 Allied victory without USA?

  • True

    Votes: 190 75.1%
  • False

    Votes: 63 24.9%

  • Total voters
    253
What's the POD on that, exactly? The US Congress was extremely pro-China at the time, the Panay incident had already occurred, and Japanese militarism was on a collision course with American interests.

Stop the embargo? Ok, either stop Japanese militarism and somehow convince Congress and the American public not to care.

I'm just saying, it's not that simple.

That's always the problem with this POD. If America doesn't join the war, it's because there's no war in the East. If there's no war in the east, then a lot must have changed. And if a lot has changed in the East, then there's no problem with Britain withdrawing a big chunk of their forces from India/Burma/Singapore.

When we've been talking about Britain filling up the 7 divisions the US contributed to the MTO with forces from the east, we're talking about Britain doing this in 1942 and sort of just handwaving why 1) there's no eastern war and 2) if there's clearly not going to be one why weren't forces sent to Europe in 1940 or 1941? IfJapan didn't take French Indochina in 1940, say, then they're in a much worse position and war is much less likely. So troops would surely have gone to Africa in 1941? If so could Britain have kicked Italy out of North Africa and invaded Greece with the extra manpower? This would totally change the Med from OTL.

But it's easier to just say "ok everything remains exactly the same only there's no war in the East and there isn't going to be, so we have to recreate OTL war without American boots on the ground".
 

Deleted member 1487

That's always the problem with this POD. If America doesn't join the war, it's because there's no war in the East. If there's no war in the east, then a lot must have changed. And if a lot has changed in the East, then there's no problem with Britain withdrawing a big chunk of their forces from India/Burma/Singapore.

When we've been talking about Britain filling up the 7 divisions the US contributed to the MTO with forces from the east, we're talking about Britain doing this in 1942 and sort of just handwaving why 1) there's no eastern war and 2) if there's clearly not going to be one why weren't forces sent to Europe in 1940 or 1941? IfJapan didn't take French Indochina in 1940, say, then they're in a much worse position and war is much less likely. So troops would surely have gone to Africa in 1941? If so could Britain have kicked Italy out of North Africa and invaded Greece with the extra manpower? This would totally change the Med from OTL.

But it's easier to just say "ok everything remains exactly the same only there's no war in the East and there isn't going to be, so we have to recreate OTL war without American boots on the ground".
What extra manpower is available in 1941 in the east that was specifically locked down due to Japanese entry into French Indo-China?
 
What extra manpower is available in 1941 in the east that was specifically locked down due to Japanese entry into French Indo-China?
These are the troops freed up for the British from the East in 1941:-

1. IV Corps
i. 2nd Armored Division
ii. 42nd (East Lancashire) Division
iii. 43rd (Wessex) Division
iv. 31st Independent Brigade Group
v. 67th Royal Artillery Regiment.
vi. 154th Royal Artillery Regiment.

2. XV Corps
i. 19th Infantry Division
ii. 28th Infantry Division

3. 4th Infantry Brigade
4. 2nd Indian Infantry Brigade
5. 2nd West Africa Infantry Brigade
6. 1st Indian Infantry Brigade
7. 1st West Africa Infantry Brigade
8. 11th East Africa Division
9. 6th Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles
10. 5th Maratha Light Infantry
11. 1st Gorkha Rifles
12. 1st Punjab Division
13. King Edward VII's Own Gurkha Rifles
14. 4th Gurkha Rifles
15. 5th Gurkha Rifles
16. 2nd Infantry Division
17. 36th Infantry Division
18. 81st West Africa Division
19. 82nd West Africa Division
20. Somerset Light Infantry
21. Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey)
22. Jammu and Kashmir Rifles
23. 8th Gurkha Rifles
24. 9th Gurkha Rifles
25. 8th Punjab Rifles
26. 11th Sikh Division
27. Princess Mary's Own Gurkha Rifles
28. 19th Lancers
29. 25th Dragoons
30. 56th Punjabi Division
31. 18th Infantry Division

Australia:-
1. 12th Division
2. 11th Division
3. 10th Division
4. 8th Division
5. 5th Division
6. 4th Division
7. 3rd Division
8. 2nd Division
9. 1st Division
10. 2nd Armored Division

New Zealand:-
1. 1st Division
2. 3rd Division
3. 4th Division
 

Deleted member 1487

These are the troops freed up for the British from the East in 1941:-

1. IV Corps
i. 2nd Armored Division
ii. 42nd (East Lancashire) Division
iii. 43rd (Wessex) Division
iv. 31st Independent Brigade Group
v. 67th Royal Artillery Regiment.
vi. 154th Royal Artillery Regiment.

2. XV Corps
i. 19th Infantry Division
ii. 28th Infantry Division

3. 4th Infantry Brigade
4. 2nd Indian Infantry Brigade
5. 2nd West Africa Infantry Brigade
6. 1st Indian Infantry Brigade
7. 1st West Africa Infantry Brigade
8. 11th East Africa Division
9. 6th Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles
10. 5th Maratha Light Infantry
11. 1st Gorkha Rifles
12. 1st Punjab Division
13. King Edward VII's Own Gurkha Rifles
14. 4th Gurkha Rifles
15. 5th Gurkha Rifles
16. 2nd Infantry Division
17. 36th Infantry Division
18. 81st West Africa Division
19. 82nd West Africa Division
20. Somerset Light Infantry
21. Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey)
22. Jammu and Kashmir Rifles
23. 8th Gurkha Rifles
24. 9th Gurkha Rifles
25. 8th Punjab Rifles
26. 11th Sikh Division
27. Princess Mary's Own Gurkha Rifles
28. 19th Lancers
29. 25th Dragoons
30. 56th Punjabi Division
31. 18th Infantry Division

Australia:-
1. 12th Division
2. 11th Division
3. 10th Division
4. 8th Division
5. 5th Division
6. 4th Division
7. 3rd Division
8. 2nd Division
9. 1st Division
10. 2nd Armored Division

New Zealand:-
1. 1st Division
2. 3rd Division
3. 4th Division

Plus 40,000 Dutch regular troops
Those are all the troops in the east, of which few would be spared from general garrison duty. None of the Dutch could leave lest they wanted to lose the DEI to a native revolt.
Of the New Zealand divisions all three were home defense divisions and the 1st Division was only formed in November 1941:
The 3rd Division was only formed in May 1942:
The 4th was also formed in November 1941:

So none of them are being sent abroad or even really relevant to any 1941 campaign. Maybe they are still formed ITTL even if Japan isn't a direct threat, but they'd at most be used for local defense with say 1 of the three being sent abroad in 1942.

I highly suspect that would be the same deal with the Aussie divisions and Indian army. Much of these were either not formed in 1941 or were not available for duty abroad in 1941 due to either being recently formed, having not enough equipment, being only garrison units, being needed to maintain order at home, etc.
I'd like to know too where that list came from.
 
Those are all the troops in the east, of which few would be spared from general garrison duty. None of the Dutch could leave lest they wanted to lose the DEI to a native revolt.
Of the New Zealand divisions all three were home defense divisions and the 1st Division was only formed in November 1941:
The 3rd Division was only formed in May 1942:
The 4th was also formed in November 1941:

So none of them are being sent abroad or even really relevant to any 1941 campaign. Maybe they are still formed ITTL even if Japan isn't a direct threat, but they'd at most be used for local defense with say 1 of the three being sent abroad in 1942.

I highly suspect that would be the same deal with the Aussie divisions and Indian army. Much of these were either not formed in 1941 or were not available for duty abroad in 1941 due to either being recently formed, having not enough equipment, being only garrison units, being needed to maintain order at home, etc.
I'd like to know too where that list came from.
Idk ABT the veracity and authenticity as different sites have different labels. However some of the guaranteed ones I found on the British were:-
1. Malaya Command under Lt. Gen. Lewis Heath
2. IV Corps

From World War 2: Re-explored By Stephanie Higgins these were the Royal Nepali Army (officially part of the British Army in ww2) that was in India and Burma in December 1941:-

1. Sri Nath Kalibox Division
2. Surya Dal Division
3. Naya Gorakh Regiment
4. Barda Bahadur Regiment
5. Second Rifle Regiment.
6. Purano Gorakh Regiment
7. Mahendra Dal Division
8. Sher Battalion
9. Kali Bahadur Battalion
10. Jagarnath Engineer Regiment
I also found the 18th Infantry Division of the British.


All of these still frees up around 200,000 men for the British not counting the need to transfer troops in Europe to the East. Also the troops raised OTL to fight against Japan could have been raised to fight again as well. Even half is going to more than enough.
 
Idk ABT the veracity and authenticity as different sites have different labels. However some of the guaranteed ones I found on the British were:-
1. Malaya Command under Lt. Gen. Lewis Heath
2. IV Corps

From World War 2: Re-explored By Stephanie Higgins these were the Royal Nepali Army (officially part of the British Army in ww2) that was in India and Burma in December 1941:-

1. Sri Nath Kalibox Division
2. Surya Dal Division
3. Naya Gorakh Regiment
4. Barda Bahadur Regiment
5. Second Rifle Regiment.
6. Purano Gorakh Regiment
7. Mahendra Dal Division
8. Sher Battalion
9. Kali Bahadur Battalion
10. Jagarnath Engineer Regiment
I also found the 18th Infantry Division of the British.


All of these still frees up around 200,000 men for the British not counting the need to transfer troops in Europe to the East. Also the troops raised OTL to fight against Japan could have been raised to fight again as well. Even half is going to more than enough.

Australia also recalled the 6th division from the MTO in January '42, so that's another ~20k men. They'd fought in Greece so let's not call them another garrison division...
 

Deleted member 1487

Idk ABT the veracity and authenticity as different sites have different labels. However some of the guaranteed ones I found on the British were:-
1. Malaya Command under Lt. Gen. Lewis Heath
2. IV Corps

From World War 2: Re-explored By Stephanie Higgins these were the Royal Nepali Army (officially part of the British Army in ww2) that was in India and Burma in December 1941:-

1. Sri Nath Kalibox Division
2. Surya Dal Division
3. Naya Gorakh Regiment
4. Barda Bahadur Regiment
5. Second Rifle Regiment.
6. Purano Gorakh Regiment
7. Mahendra Dal Division
8. Sher Battalion
9. Kali Bahadur Battalion
10. Jagarnath Engineer Regiment
I also found the 18th Infantry Division of the British.


All of these still frees up around 200,000 men for the British not counting the need to transfer troops in Europe to the East. Also the troops raised OTL to fight against Japan could have been raised to fight again as well. Even half is going to more than enough.
Did the Nepalese army other than the Ghurkas ever deploy outside of Asia? They fought locally to defend themselves, but I don't think they'd really deploy abroad if the Japanese didn't attack.
I don't really have the time to research the situation for all of those units to check on their status, but for the sake of argument let's say that all are available for redeployment to elsewhere...where is the shipping coming from to move them and supply them without the US in the war? Coming from Asia, 4x as far as the US to UK, they'd require a massive fleet to move them around Africa to avoid the Mediterranean or at least require a massive fleet in Asia to move them from Asia to the Mediterranean and sustain them either from the UK or US via the long route around South Africa if they use LL gear. I can crack open my copy of Britain's official history of their merchant fleet in WW2, but they had a rather severe shipping crisis in 1941 as it was and were just trying to keep their head above water until the US entered the war and their merchant fleet, sailors, and shipyards became British assets.
The critical world situation confronting the United States in the spring of 1941 raised questions that were not answered by drafting long-range war plans. The most pressing of these questions was how to help insure the survival of Great Britain. Britain's weakness in early 1941 stemmed primarily from its increasingly critical shortage of merchant shipping. In March and April the British lost ships to Axis submarine, surface, and air attacks at an annual rate of about 7,300,000 gross tons; with a current British shipbuilding capacity of 1,250,000 tons, continuing losses at that rate would result in a net loss to Britain of about 6,000,000 tons a year, or about one fourth its available merchant fleet.1 The British Isles simply could not long survive continued losses of this magnitude.
By the end of 1941 they had gotten losses down to an acceptable level thanks to L-L purchases of US new merchant ships and the effective organization of convoys, but they were still left with a very tight shipping situation due to continuing losses and the deficit created by all the losses up to that point, so there wasn't extra shipping available to not only move around a bunch of manpower in Asia, but sustain it and keep up a steady flow of replacements.

Not only that, but British shipping soon was locked down trying to supply the USSR via the Arctic to keep them in the war:

So while numbers on paper look good out of context there was a lot of other issues here that make things quite complicated for the British to really change much prior to 1942. Then ITTL without the US in the war even if it were still supplying OTL levels of L-L there are enormous deficits the British didn't have IOTL thanks to the US merchant fleet and manpower being denied to the US and US shipyards not being fully wartime mobilized to churn out shipping. Of course they are avoiding the horrible shipping losses of early 1942 by the US staying out of the war, but that is cold comfort given the problems they'd be facing without active US belligerency.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Australia also recalled the 6th division from the MTO in January '42, so that's another ~20k men. They'd fought in Greece so let's not call them another garrison division...
Ironic given that they were used as a garrison division after their losses in Greece and Operation Brevity and the Syrian campaign:
After the conclusion of the fighting in Syria, the rest of the 6th Division joined the 17th Brigade and undertook garrison duties there. In December 1941, the division received news that the Japanese had attacked on Pearl Harbor and invaded Malaya. Nevertheless, the division remained in Syria over Christmas, during which time they endured a bitterly cold winter that saw heavy snow falls. Finally, in January 1942, the decision was made to withdraw them back to Australia to meet threat posed by Japanese advances in the Pacific.[40] The 19th Brigade departed first and subsequently arrived at Fremantle on 10 March. Meanwhile, the 16th and 17th Brigades were diverted to defend Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) from the Japanese. They remained there from mid-March through to early July 1942.[41]
They were busy rebuilding by the end of 1941 so would be out of combat for a while.
 
Did the Nepalese army other than the Ghurkas ever deploy outside of Asia? They fought locally to defend themselves, but I don't think they'd really deploy abroad if the Japanese didn't attack.
A few regiments fought in the Western front in ww1, and a good few divisions took part in the invasion of Italy 3 brigades were present in NA as well.

Did the Nepalese army other than the Ghurkas ever deploy outside of Asia? They fought locally to defend themselves, but I don't think they'd really deploy abroad if the Japanese didn't attack.
I don't really have the time to research the situation for all of those units to check on their status, but for the sake of argument let's say that all are available for redeployment to elsewhere...where is the shipping coming from to move them and supply them without the US in the war? Coming from Asia, 4x as far as the US to UK, they'd require a massive fleet to move them around Africa to avoid the Mediterranean or at least require a massive fleet in Asia to move them from Asia to the Mediterranean and sustain them either from the UK or US via the long route around South Africa if they use LL gear. I can crack open my copy of Britain's official history of their merchant fleet in WW2, but they had a rather severe shipping crisis in 1941 as it was and were just trying to keep their head above water until the US entered the war and their merchant fleet, sailors, and shipyards became British assets.

By the end of 1941 they had gotten losses down to an acceptable level thanks to L-L purchases of US new merchant ships and the effective organization of convoys, but they were still left with a very tight shipping situation due to continuing losses and the deficit created by all the losses up to that point, so there wasn't extra shipping available to not only move around a bunch of manpower in Asia, but sustain it and keep up a steady flow of replacements.

Not only that, but British shipping soon was locked down trying to supply the USSR via the Arctic to keep them in the war:

So while numbers on paper look good out of context there was a lot of other issues here that make things quite complicated for the British to really change much prior to 1942. Then ITTL without the US in the war even if it were still supplying OTL levels of L-L there are enormous deficits the British didn't have IOTL thanks to the US merchant fleet and manpower being denied to the US and US shipyards not being fully wartime mobilized to churn out shipping. Of course they are avoiding the horrible shipping losses of early 1942 by the US staying out of the war, but that is cold comfort given the problems they'd be facing without active US belligerency.
Britain was capable of curtailing food imports to focus on weapons shipping on the war if it wanted
 

Deleted member 1487

A few regiments fought in the Western front in ww1, and a good few divisions took part in the invasion of Italy 3 brigades were present in NA as well.
So far less than the 200k that you suggested. Far less even than the 100k you mentioned too.

Britain was capable of curtailing food imports to focus on weapons shipping on the war if it wanted
Focusing on weapons still isn't shipping and sustaining 200k additional men thousands of miles away.
And when is Gizmodo a reputable source on history???

Counter-example:
Winston Churchill, who has succeeded Chamberlain on 10 May 1940, had grown concerned in 1940 about the expansion of British supply services in Egypt under Middle East Command compared to the number of fighting men, and pushed for the dispatch of additional fighting formations.[50][d] This had been a source of friction with General Archibald Wavell and his replacement, General Claude Auchinleck, who wanted rear-area personnel and replacements for fighting formations rather than new divisions. Churchill was adamant that additional complete British fighting formations be dispatched, not replacements or logistical troops, "to give the Dominions no cause to feel that the bulk of the fighting was done by their troops".[52] On 1 September 1941, Churchill contacted neutral U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt and requested shipping for two infantry divisions from Britain to the Middle East. Roosevelt responded that shipping could be provided for only one division, sailing from Halifax, Nova Scotia. The 18th Infantry Division left Liverpool aboard the heavily-escorted convoy CT.5 on 28 October, bound for Nova Scotia. Three days later, an American-escorted convoy left Halifax with six cargo ships provided to the British as part of the Lend-Lease programme. The convoys met in mid-ocean on 2 November, and exchanged escort groups; the British ships and Lend-Lease cargo ships headed for the United Kingdom, and the (now American-escorted) convoy CT.5 continued to Nova Scotia. The division arrived in Halifax on 7 November, and transferred to the waiting American ships of convoy WS.12X over the next few days. The British ships returned home, and convoy WS.12X departed Halifax on 10 November for the Middle East.[2][52][53][54]
The British military didn't want more combat troops in the Middle East, they wanted more rear area support personnel. Not only that, but Britain lacked the shipping to move even a single British division to the region by late 1941 and had to beg FDR to use American shipping to move them. Though it was ultimately diverted to the Far East it is a measure of how little shipping the US had to spare, same with the British. So it is highly unlikely they'd be able to divert extra shipping before this to the Middle East/Asia to move even a single extra division; as it was it took months and US entry to even get the Aussies back home from Syria in 1942.
 
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Yeah, never called them that

Oh I know, I wasn't talking to you mate ;)

OK, I appreciate @wiking for not accepting easy or glib answers, and so I'll try to satisfy your terms as best I can. So @Aber has told us the US supplied 7 divisions to the Med TTL, only 5 of which saw combat. You haven't disputed this, so I'm assuming you accept it.

Australia recalled the entire I Corps OTL, 6th & 7th (Australian) Divisions in January 1942. TTL they can remain in the Med. The I Corps fought Italians and Germans so no problem putting them into North Africa for TTL's Torch. The 18th Division can go to the Med as planned instead of watching Percival show off his skills with a white flag OTL. They'd already landed in South Africa in December '41 but were rerouted East when Japan attacked. So - no extra shipping is required as 18th was already being shipped, and 6th & 7th Aus are just staying where they were OTL so actually freeing up shipping. The 3 Divisions from East & West Africa who were shipped to Burma to join the 14th army OTL can go to the Med TTL. They joined the 14th Army in 1943 OTL, just in time for Italy TTL. All 3 saw action OTL so they're not garrison troops.

That's 6 divisions who were already in Africa and got moved out explicitly due to the war with Japan. So we need one more to bring up the full 7 - without actually removing a single division that was already in the East prior to 1941.

I'm a sentimental man so to bring up the full 7 I'll take the Guards Armoured Division was sat in the UK waiting for D-Day, so they can go to Italy TTL. My Grandad was in the 2nd Battalion so I hope he doesn't die TTL as my mam was born after the war, but otherwise this should be fine.

Now I'm (supposed to be) working so all that is coming from memory checked against Wikipedia, so if I've got anything wrong it's an accident and not an attempt to slip anything by you. The only divisions here which will require shipping to the Med will be the 2 West African divisions who will need to go round the Cape and the Guards Armoured division from the UK. Everything else was either already in the theatre and was removed OTL or was being shipped OTL before Japan declared war.
 

Deleted member 1487

OK, I appreciate @wiking for not accepting easy or glib answers, and so I'll try to satisfy your terms as best I can. So @Aber has told us the US supplied 7 divisions to the Med TTL, only 5 of which saw combat. You haven't disputed this, so I'm assuming you accept it.
That is a matter of historical record, but that is in reference to Operation Torch.
There were more divisions used in the Mediterranean than that, 14 total:
And they were the most prepared and best divisions the US had. That is also leaving out the thousands of aircraft and multiple air forces and massive fleets deployed as well.

Australia recalled the entire I Corps OTL, 6th & 7th (Australian) Divisions in January 1942. TTL they can remain in the Med. The I Corps fought Italians and Germans so no problem putting them into North Africa for TTL's Torch. The 18th Division can go to the Med as planned instead of watching Percival show off his skills with a white flag OTL. They'd already landed in South Africa in December '41 but were rerouted East when Japan attacked. So - no extra shipping is required as 18th was already being shipped, and 6th & 7th Aus are just staying where they were OTL so actually freeing up shipping. The 3 Divisions from East & West Africa who were shipped to Burma to join the 14th army OTL can go to the Med TTL. They joined the 14th Army in 1943 OTL, just in time for Italy TTL. All 3 saw action OTL so they're not garrison troops.

That's 6 divisions who were already in Africa and got moved out explicitly due to the war with Japan. So we need one more to bring up the full 7 - without actually removing a single division that was already in the East prior to 1941.

I'm a sentimental man so to bring up the full 7 I'll take the Guards Armoured Division was sat in the UK waiting for D-Day, so they can go to Italy TTL. My Grandad was in the 2nd Battalion so I hope he doesn't die TTL as my mam was born after the war, but otherwise this should be fine.

Now I'm (supposed to be) working so all that is coming from memory checked against Wikipedia, so if I've got anything wrong it's an accident and not an attempt to slip anything by you. The only divisions here which will require shipping to the Med will be the 2 West African divisions who will need to go round the Cape and the Guards Armoured division from the UK. Everything else was either already in the theatre and was removed OTL or was being shipped OTL before Japan declared war.
The Aussie 6th was being rebuilt and garrisoning Syria in late 1941. Same with the 7th, which had been garrisoning Syria continuously since they had participated in the invasion in mid-1941. If they remain they will be still a garrison force until they get rotated in to replace another CW or British division that is rotated out of North Africa. There was a limited supply apparatus for maintaining divisions in the 8th army in Egypt or Libya, so a cap on divisions available to deploy there at any one time. The 18th division would also replace a division needing refitting and only arrive in January per their historical TL to deploy from Britain cited above in an edit.

The 6th and 7th Aussies were being rebuilt and rested after their campaigns, so shipping is still needed to supply/sustain and reinforce them. IOTL they were only redeployed AFTER US shipping was completely available to the British war effort thanks to the Japanese bringing them in the war, so claiming that those divisions staying put frees up shipping is false, because that depended on US shipping being in play.

The 3 divisions from East and West Africa were not in combat anyway and just were garrisoning regions before being dispatched. Their deployment to Burma was due to lack of any other option, rather than plans to ever use them in North Africa. Plus again they were able to be moved thanks to the US having entered the war and made their shipping available to Britain. I'm not saying the US moved those divisions, rather than the US shipping that took over the routes from the US to Britain freed up British shipping to do the job.

You're reaching really hard and ignoring confounding factors to try and even get up to 6 divisions and not even considering in theater supply issues that prevented more men from being deployed to the Western Desert.

Why would the Guards Armored be deployed here? It was a defense unit for the UK and despite Torch and all the other campaigns it was never deployed before Normandy. There must have been a reason.

Also you're ignoring the reality that the Brits needed to invade Vichy North Africa and the reality that the French would fight back hard, potentially coming into the war on the German side if one of their core colonies was invaded. That's why the US was most of the first wave of divisions that landed, as the French largely were less willing to fight them than the Brits, especially after Mers el Kabir and several attacks on French colonies from 1940-42 as well as the desire to maintain the treaty with Germany so they could maintain a measure of independence. Italy is not invadeable without dealing with Vichy North Africa first, especially given the logistical limitations of trying to clear North Africa via Egypt given the shipping problems. Divisions existing on paper doesn't translate into them being usable in a particular theater.
 
That is a matter of historical record, but that is in reference to Operation Torch.
There were more divisions used in the Mediterranean than that, 14 total:
But not at the same time; and not all divisions in the MTO were in combat.

Maximum US divisions in MTO was 9 for May to October 1943, before 4 divisions were pulled back to the UK. Combat operations summarised below (happy to be corrected on the detail):
1 Armoured - Torch (part), Tunisia, Italy
2 Armoured - Torch, Sicily
1 Infantry - Torch, Tunisia, Sicily
3 Infantry - Torch, Sicily
9 Infantry - Torch, Tunisia
34 Infantry - Torch, Tunisia
36 Infantry - Italy
45 Infantry - Sicily; Italy
82 Airborne - Sicily (part); Italy

Overall 5 or fewer in combat at any one time.

as the French largely were less willing to fight them than the Brits
:rolleyes: That was the plan, it didn't turn out that way. The French fighting back hard was always problematic given that the Germans limited their resources in case they decided to deploy against the Germans.

The US also messed with the Operation Gymnast plan by including landings in Morocco. Landings further east, and an earlier capture of Tunis is one of the few easy ways of accelerating the war in the West.

They were busy rebuilding by the end of 1941 so would be out of combat for a while.
I've lost track of why location of divisions in early 1942 is critical?
 
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I've lost track of why location of divisions in early 1942 is critical?

Arguments around the ability of Britain to move divisions around due to shipping constraints, so I just pulled together a bunch of stuff already on hand.
 
Arguments around the ability of Britain to move divisions around due to shipping constraints, so I just pulled together a bunch of stuff already on hand.

But what would you do with the extra divisions (and ships and aircraft)?

EDIT:
The following divisions were shipped from the UK in the first half of 1942:
8th Armoured
2nd Infantry
5th Infantry
44th Infantry
51st Infantry
If 6&7th Australian and 18th British were not sent to the Far East, then these divisions would not have to go the Middle East and India, and so could replace US divisions in Operation Gymnast 6 months earlier.
 
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Deleted member 1487

But not at the same time; and not all divisions in the MTO were in combat.

Maximum US divisions in MTO was 9 for May to October 1943, before 4 divisions were pulled back to the UK. Combat operations summarised below (happy to be corrected on the detail):
1 Armoured - Torch (part), Tunisia, Italy
2 Armoured - Torch, Sicily
1 Infantry - Torch, Tunisia, Sicily
3 Infantry - Torch, Sicily
9 Infantry - Torch, Tunisia
34 Infantry - Torch, Tunisia
36 Infantry - Italy
45 Infantry - Sicily; Italy
82 Airborne - Sicily (part); Italy

Overall 5 or fewer in combat at any one time.
K, now do the Brits. How many in combat at any one time?

:rolleyes: That was the plan, it didn't turn out that way.
French resistance to the US was rather limited and ended quickly. Vastly more quickly than at Dakar, Madagascar, and Syria-Lebanon.

The French fighting back hard was always problematic given that the Germans limited their resources in case they decided to deploy against the Germans.
While true the French in North Africa surrendered more quickly than they actually needed to and in part because the French resistance staged a coup in Algiers, which is unlikely without the US involved. The French wouldn't have dealt with the British as they did Mark Clark.
General Giraud was under house arrest by the Vichy government at Toulon in southern France for his anti-Nazi leanings. Giraud was already planning for the day when American troops landed in France. He had agreed to support an Allied landing in French North Africa, provided that only American troops were used, and that he or another French officer was the commander of the operation. He considered this latter condition essential to maintaining French sovereignty and authority over the Arab and Berber natives of North Africa.

Because Giraud flatly refused to deal with the British, and there were no American submarines within 3,000 miles (4,800 km), Winston Churchill devised a subterfuge to appease the French general.[2] HMS Seraph, under the command of Lieutenant Norman "Bill" Jewell, briefly became "USS Seraph", flying the U.S. Navy ensign. Nominally, the sub came under the command of Wright, although Jewell took care of actual operations. In the spirit of things the British crew affected American accents that they imitated from the movies. Of course, it fooled nobody—including Giraud, who had been told of the deception by Wright.

At the meeting, Eisenhower asked Giraud to assume command of French troops in North Africa during Operation Torch and direct them to join the Allies. But Giraud had expected to command the whole operation – the job which had been given to Eisenhower – and adamantly refused to participate on any other basis. He said "his honor would be tarnished" and "Giraud will be a spectator in this affair.[5] However, by the next morning, Giraud relented.

The US also messed with the Operation Gymnast plan by including landings in Morocco. Landings further east, and an earlier capture of Tunis is one of the few easy ways of accelerating the war in the West.
Again that is predicated on the idea the French wouldn't resist the British, which all evidence to that point is to the contrary, while the Brits lacked the ability to land more than a corps themselves, which left them heavily outnumbered by the French alone, forgetting any German commitments to the region that there would have been. Then you have to consider the support fleet, merchant supply fleet, and air force available for the operation, the bulk of which was US.

Not only that, but without US help Malta may not survive until then.
 
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K, now do the Brits. How many in combat at any one time?
Already done this once :)
Ist Army Tunisia
6 Armoured
1 Infantry
4 Infantry
46 Infantry
78 Infantry
plus armoured brigade

8th Army Mareth Line
1 Armoured
7 Armoured
50 Infantry
51 Infantry
4 Indian
plus independent armoured and infantry brigades

So 10 complete divisions plus at least another equivalent in brigades. El Alamein 6 months earlier had 11.

Not forgetting 3+ French divisions.

H-013-3 Operation Torch— The Naval Battle of Casablanca
Yes, the US Navy was heavily involved in the Morocco landings which was a task force based out of the US. Try looking up the US naval component of the other 2 task forces, it's rather limited.

The French wouldn't have dealt with the British as they did Mark Clark.
Some specific evidence please, as I find myself repeatedly correcting your claims with facts. :)
 
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US divisions in MTO 7 (including 2 who didn't see combat in 1943); other Allies 31

This is from: Victory in Italy 15th Army Group final campaign 1945:

1592587477310.png

The British need to invest some 500 000 men into the Italian campaign to compensate for the absence of the Americans/French/Brazilians and their losses.
They will also probably sustain another 50 000 casualties in the air and 50 000 at sea in the 42-45 period without the Americans actively helping them. So they are short some 600 000 men compared to OTL.More because the US had troops in Iran, India, the Med and Iceland, which are not there ATL and have to be replaced by British troops. Another 100 000 to 200 000 troops gone.

Considered that total British/Canadian troops in North Western Europe in May 1945 were just 1.1 Million, one can see that the British will have to invest pretty much all their forces into the Italian campaign/replacing American troops around the globe. Meaning the Germans dont have to fear an invasion of France/Norway. Meaning they can transfer hundreds of thousands of troops and thousands of tanks to the East stalling the Soviets: https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Supreme/USA-E-Supreme-E.html

And lets not even start about the many thousands of aircraft that can be sent East in the 43-45 period without the Americans. Germany had something like 60 000 AA guns in the Summer of 1944, without the USAAF, some 20 000 to 30 000 can be sent against the Soviets slaughtering their tanks and aircraft.

So as stated a dozen times allready. A UK/USSR coalition with LL gets most likely stalemted by the Germans. Allied victory is possible, but it is a very small possibility. A UK/USSR coalition without LL gets absolutely slaughtered.
 
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