Would Italy have been involved in WW2 if they had Libyan oil?

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Deleted member 1487

If say Italy had discovered large amounts of oil in Libya in the 1920s (very hard I know) and started to develop it in the 1930s would the Allies have allowed Italy to become alienated and fall in line with Hitler? Being a strategically important source of oil, or at least future source, would the Allies have worked harder to keep them neutral or just conducted OTL policy and seized the oil fields at first chance when Italy jumps in?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Technology is not that hard, it is just the Italians need Americans who lead the world in oil tech back then. By about the end of WW1, in Ohio, we routinely drilled to deeper depths than the Libyan oil. We had a large oil pipeline network. The missing component is looking at the geography and deciding their was oil there. And then the financing.

I tend to think the Allies would still alienate Italy, but you need someone who better understands Italian politics to say for sure.
 
Technology is not that hard, it is just the Italians need Americans who lead the world in oil tech back then. By about the end of WW1, in Ohio, we routinely drilled to deeper depths than the Libyan oil. We had a large oil pipeline network. The missing component is looking at the geography and deciding their was oil there. And then the financing.

I tend to think the Allies would still alienate Italy, but you need someone who better understands Italian politics to say for sure.

Benny see the possibility of an easy grab due to the sudden fall of France? Italy will enter WWII
 
If say Italy had discovered large amounts of oil in Libya in the 1920s (very hard I know) and started to develop it in the 1930s would the Allies have allowed Italy to become alienated and fall in line with Hitler? Being a strategically important source of oil, or at least future source, would the Allies have worked harder to keep them neutral or just conducted OTL policy and seized the oil fields at first chance when Italy jumps in?
Wouldn't alienating Italy [especially out of weakness and sympathy for Abyssinia] turn it closer to the Axis? Assuming Italy joins WW2 in the 1940 timeframe [maybe slightly later due to butterflies], the issue is whether the fuel gets captured by the British and destroyed before Rommel or whether Rommel is better off with the extra petroleum, tanks and a few extra ships.
Then, the planes and ships would be space and fuel consuming, so the logistics wouldn't be better if just used to carry extra petroleum, food and weapons. If sent as per otl, some of these planes and ships would be destroyed with weapons and this may make Germany's situation worse, but they have extra fuel for the tanks in the Eastern Front with less fuel transported and used by said transportation and the Afrika Korps.
 

Deleted member 1487

Wouldn't alienating Italy [especially out of weakness and sympathy for Abyssinia] turn it closer to the Axis? Assuming Italy joins WW2 in the 1940 timeframe [maybe slightly later due to butterflies], the issue is whether the fuel gets captured by the British and destroyed before Rommel or whether Rommel is better off with the extra petroleum, tanks and a few extra ships.
Then, the planes and ships would be space and fuel consuming, so the logistics wouldn't be better if just used to carry extra petroleum, food and weapons. If sent as per otl, some of these planes and ships would be destroyed with weapons and this may make Germany's situation worse, but they have extra fuel for the tanks in the Eastern Front with less fuel transported and used by said transportation and the Afrika Korps.

That's the question, Italy would offer Germany a lot of what they lacked and would be a major strategic ally even as a neutral, so that's why I wondered whether the Allies would be willing to make serious concessions to avoid Italy being even a neutral supplier of oil to Germany.

If Italy jumped in the war they would certainly have an advantage of having lots of oil, but also the problem of defending that resource; they would also likely be a bit poorer for it, having to spend money on developing infrastructure rather than on the military or industry. However in terms of development Libya would have a lot more rail lines to connect up the oil fields to ports, so if there was an Axis Italy North Africa would have a lot of the rail lines Rommel needed to stay supplied.

The big issue though would be SAS raids on Sarir, as the SAS did raid that deep IOTL
625px-Libya_location_map-oil_%26_gas_2011-en.svg.png
 
If say Italy had discovered large amounts of oil in Libya in the 1920s (very hard I know) and started to develop it in the 1930s would the Allies have allowed Italy to become alienated and fall in line with Hitler? Being a strategically important source of oil, or at least future source, would the Allies have worked harder to keep them neutral or just conducted OTL policy and seized the oil fields at first chance when Italy jumps in?
Tthey'd probably want to keep them out. OTL, they did offer them a lot for neutrality and Mussolini's ministers and generals might be more firmly against intervention if they had it. If he enters the war anyways, the Germans would probably see securing the Mediterranean as a top priority.
 

Driftless

Donor
If oil was found in the 20's isn't there a need for Benny to connect that windfall to him and the fascists, before oil wealth has a positive impact on the larger Italian economy? If the money flows into Italy and there's no apparent connection to the Fascists, the the Italians might see Benny as irrelevant to the accumulation of wealth, and then he loses political traction. If the idea of that oil wealth is psychologically connected to Benny & the Fascists, he's looking good - as long as the money flows too. I realize that finding oil and reaping it's financial gain is not an overnight thing, and that it requires significant upfront investment.

As BlondieBC notes above, the technology and financing would be needed to get the oil and money flowing. Did Italy require outside help on both counts? Who had the know-how back then and available cash AND would stand to gain by partnering with the Italians? In the 1920's, it wouldn't be the Germans. The Americans had plenty of oil in their back yard, but maybe. What about the British & French?
 

Deleted member 1487

If oil was found in the 20's isn't there a need for Benny to connect that windfall to him and the fascists, before oil wealth has a positive impact on the larger Italian economy? If the money flows into Italy and there's no apparent connection to the Fascists, the the Italians might see Benny as irrelevant to the accumulation of wealth, and then he loses political traction. If the idea of that oil wealth is psychologically connected to Benny & the Fascists, he's looking good - as long as the money flows too. I realize that finding oil and reaping it's financial gain is not an overnight thing, and that it requires significant upfront investment.

As BlondieBC notes above, the technology and financing would be needed to get the oil and money flowing. Did Italy require outside help on both counts? Who had the know-how back then and available cash AND would stand to gain by partnering with the Italians? In the 1920's, it wouldn't be the Germans. The Americans had plenty of oil in their back yard, but maybe. What about the British & French?

Only the US had the tech and money AFAIK.
 
Only the US had the tech and money AFAIK.
I've never accepted the idea that the Italians wouldn't be able to develop the tech necessary to dril their oil without outside intervention. An Italian physicist builds a nuclear reactor, but drills are to advanced for them? Yes. I know that they're not it's not the same thing. All I'm saying is that we aren't talking about Ethiopia or Afghanistan. I suspect any first world country would be able to develop.
 

Driftless

Donor
I've never accepted the idea that the Italians wouldn't be able to develop the tech necessary to dril their oil without outside intervention. An Italian physicist builds a nuclear reactor, but drills are to advanced for them? Yes. I know that they're not it's not the same thing. All I'm saying is that we aren't talking about Ethiopia or Afghanistan. I suspect any first world country would be able to develop.

Did Italy have the production capacity to produce sufficient quantities of oil pipelines in-country back then - especially the ones shown further inland on Wikings map. That's a pretty lengthy journey 400-500KM?

Also, did they have sufficient development cash, without stranling other development on mainland Italy?

I would imagine it would be more profitable to bankroll as much of the projects as possible from Italian sources - at least up to a point.
 

marathag

Banned
I've never accepted the idea that the Italians wouldn't be able to develop the tech necessary to dril their oil without outside intervention. An Italian physicist builds a nuclear reactor, but drills are to advanced for them? Yes. I know that they're not it's not the same thing. All I'm saying is that we aren't talking about Ethiopia or Afghanistan. I suspect any first world country would be able to develop.

Howard Hughes.

Richest Man in the World.

Know why?

Hughes Tool Company.
They were the only company making bits that were both fast drilling, and long lasting.

Held those patents(and the cone bits) quite jealously, and made lots and lots of $$$ renting, not selling them to all the different Oil companies in the world. Anyone who tried to copy or steal those bits, he would ruin legally in court, and illegally by blackballing any other company who worked with them. None of the Major fought Hughes. The few Wildcatter who tried, Hughes made good examples of.

The Soviet tried to copy those bits, but failed.

Let that sink in, the country that penetrated the Manhattan Project, and did the Atom Bomb,couldn't do the same with the Hughes Rotary Bit.
 
Howard Hughes.

Richest Man in the World.

Know why?

Hughes Tool Company.
They were the only company making bits that were both fast drilling, and long lasting.

Held those patents(and the cone bits) quite jealously, and made lots and lots of $$$ renting, not selling them to all the different Oil companies in the world. Anyone who tried to copy or steal those bits, he would ruin legally in court, and illegally by blackballing any other company who worked with them. None of the Major fought Hughes. The few Wildcatter who tried, Hughes made good examples of.

The Soviet tried to copy those bits, but failed.

Let that sink in, the country that penetrated the Manhattan Project, and did the Atom Bomb,couldn't do the same with the Hughes Rotary Bit.
They probably weren't trying as hard.
 
Howard Hughes.

Richest Man in the World.

Know why?

Hughes Tool Company.
They were the only company making bits that were both fast drilling, and long lasting.

Held those patents(and the cone bits) quite jealously, and made lots and lots of $$$ renting, not selling them to all the different Oil companies in the world. Anyone who tried to copy or steal those bits, he would ruin legally in court, and illegally by blackballing any other company who worked with them. None of the Major fought Hughes. The few Wildcatter who tried, Hughes made good examples of.

The Soviet tried to copy those bits, but failed.

Let that sink in, the country that penetrated the Manhattan Project, and did the Atom Bomb,couldn't do the same with the Hughes Rotary Bit.
Probably. They blew billions on their wars in the late 30's. If they realize that they have a lot of oil in Libya, it's development would become atop priority and it would help solve their post war unemployment problem.
 
If say Italy had discovered large amounts of oil in Libya in the 1920s (very hard I know) and started to develop it in the 1930s would the Allies have allowed Italy to become alienated and fall in line with Hitler? Being a strategically important source of oil, or at least future source, would the Allies have worked harder to keep them neutral or just conducted OTL policy and seized the oil fields at first chance when Italy jumps in?

The British-French break with Italy was over Abyssinia. Italy's brutal war of aggression was offensive. The British and French governments denounced it, but were not prepared to do anything concrete to stop it - in part because they wanted Italy as a counterweight to Germany over Austria. Mussolini was initially opposed to German ambitions in Austria, and was deeply offended by the assassination of Chancellor Dollfuss by Austrian Nazis.

But the Abyssinian question clearly showed that Italy could not rely on the friendship of France and Britain, while Germany eventually endorsed Italy's invasion. After Hitler assured Mussolini that he had no ambitions regarding the South Tyrol, there was no real obstacle to the formation of the Axis, and little Britain and France could do about it.

I don't think that access to Libyan oil would be a big factor. Oil was fairly cheap in that era, and Britain and France had access to effectively unlimited supplies of oil from the Middle East and the Americas.

Hitler OTOH would be very eager to partner with a reliable oil supplier.

Italy would probably have remained neutral for the first year of the war as in OTL; it would have been a major supplier of oil to Germany alongside the USSR, though Germany's ability to pay for imports was badly strained.
The Allies would try to pressure Italy to cut off oil supplies, but they could not push too hard, and not hard enough to have any effect IMO.

When France falls and Italy enters the war (as OTL, which seems likely), then things get interesting. LIbya becomes an obvious target for Britain, but at this period of the war Britain has no hope of attacking Libya. British submarines will be concentrated to attack Axis shipping in the Med, especially tankers. (One presumes that Italy will acquire a lot more tankers as the oil fields come on-line.)

Will Hitler send German troops to Libya as well? That is, before the Italians get bashed at the end of 1940? OT1H, Libya is already important to Germany; OTOH, the Italian forces there should have been more than enough to keep the British away.

Even if Germany does not send troops to Libya immediately, it seems likely that they would send airpower to help suppress Malta and secure the sea lanes. OTL that was important only to send stuff to Africa to help the Italians, not a German priority. ATL, it's important to secure Germany's oil supply, which will be a high German priority. Germany may even propose a joint airborne attack on Malta, probably in place of the Italian invasion of Egypt. And I don't think Malta could withstand such an attack in 1940.

After that, it's quite possible that there is a joint German-Italian invasion of Egypt, to further secure the sea lanes and pre-empt any British attack. This will not get major German participation, but the Germans will be interested and send something.

This may have the odd knock-on of pre-empting the Italian invasion of Greece. OTL, Mussolini decided on it partly on impulse and because nothing else was going on in the theater that he could brag on. ATL, there's other stuff, and Germany is going to be paying a lot more attention.
 
MarathG hit the nail on the head. The idea of Italy exploiting the oil is ASB impossible. Not only did the Italians lack the drilling technology, the Italians (and everyone else) lacked the geological knowledge.

The brilliant and greatly missed Bill Cameron debunked the idea of deep oil affecting WW II years ago in several threads. Here's one of threads.

BTW, for those of you who have trouble using the board search function, you can use Google to find old threads, too.
Oil was discovered in the 30's. So he's incorrect there. Long before that their were many people who suspected that it had oil. Balbo was very interested in building up Libya. If he'd ended up as the dictator, it's not impossible that they'd find oil earlier.
 

marathag

Banned
Oil was discovered in the 30's. So he's incorrect there. Long before that their were many people who suspected that it had oil. Balbo was very interested in building up Libya. If he'd ended up as the dictator, it's not impossible that they'd find oil earlier.

Knowing that there is Oil somewhere is different from knowing you can extract it economically, and then transport it to refineries.

They would need outside help to get this done in time for WWII, but looking at the Italian Fascist dealings with Ford before the war, well, they just didn't play well with Multinationals.
 
Knowing that there is Oil somewhere is different from knowing you can extract it economically, and then transport it to refineries.

They would need outside help to get this done in time for WWII, but looking at the Italian Fascist dealings with Ford before the war, well, they just didn't play well with Multinationals.
What is it about pipelines and tankers that makes it more to complicated for the Italians to build on their own?
 
I don't think there was any serious belief that there were significant amounts of oil in Libya until much later than what you claim, LS. A quick Google search doesn't support that claim. The majority links indicate oil in any quantity was found in 1959.

Here are the first two links--for your convenience:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/339574/Libya
http://applet-magic.com/libyanoil.htm

Further, as Bill pointed out, the geological knowledge to find deep oil was lacking. Bill, btw, worked in the oil industry, iirc.

Do you have any support for your claim, Lee-Sensei, that there was a serious belief of oil in Libya in the 1930s, particularly deep oil? I saw mentions that natural gas turned up when drilling wells for water and such but that hardly constitutes a serious belief that large amounts of oil were waiting to be found.

Oil was discovered in the 30's. So he's incorrect there. Long before that their were many people who suspected that it had oil. Balbo was very interested in building up Libya. If he'd ended up as the dictator, it's not impossible that they'd find oil earlier.
 
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I don't think there was any serious belief that there were significant amounts of oil in Libya until much later than what you claim, LS. A quick Google search doesn't support that claim. The majority links indicate oil in any quantity was found in 1959.

Here are the first two links--for your convenience:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/339574/Libya
http://applet-magic.com/libyanoil.htm

Further, as Bill pointed out, the geological knowledge to find deep oil was lacking. Bill, btw, worked in the oil industry, iirc.

Do you have any support for your claim, Lee-Sensei, that there was a serious belief of oil in Libya in the 1930s, particularly deep oil?
1) In 1911, they created a geological map of Libya.

2) In 1914, a water well at Sidi Mersi was detected natural gas.

3) In 1926, they found traces of oil in a water well near Tripoli.

4) In 1938, Ardito Desio discovered oil at the Mellaha oil well, but not in commercial qualities. At this point, Ciano started investing in AGIP.
 
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