Would being a dominantly Muslim dynasty undermine long term Mughal rule in India?

VVD0D95

Banned
So, this is something I’ve long pondered and something I’ve seen some claim. If the Mughals had lasted as rulers of India, and managed to unite all of it, would their religion be an obstacle or a thorn in their side preventing t the people from rallying around them? Or is the fact that they were Muslim vastly overplayed in the reasoning for why it all went south for them?

@Rajveer Naha @Madhukar_Shah @Sardar @Kaushlendra pratap singh @Brahman
 
No doubt that them being a small Muslim minority ruling over a vast Hindu majority turned their tables on them, if they are more successful in conversion, you could seethem consolidating and converting their population first before conquering later, as they also lacked a stable power base

I have always maintained this that an Islamic India would look much more like Iran or Indonesia than Pakistan, as in they would venerate and respect pre islamic hertiage and hold it to equal or even greater esteem than their Islamic heritage
This is because we see wherever Islam becomes the majority religion, it essentially follows the same path, they start to venerate and respect their pre islamic cultural heritage, it happened in Iran, with Turks, in Indonesia, and even in Bangladesh, it would happen here as well, infact, The language they would use would be more Sanskritised depending upon their location
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Hasn’t most long-lived Indian empires been ruled by a non-Hindu minority? Whether Muslim or Buddhist.
Not necessarily, the Mauryans were mainly Hindu, Gupta were Hindu, the Delhi sultanate and Mughals were the first properly non Hindu rulers I can think of
No doubt that them being a small Muslim minority ruling over a vast Hindu majority turned their tables on them, if they are more successful in conversion, you could seethem consolidating and converting their population first before conquering later, as they also lacked a stable power base

I have always maintained this that an Islamic India would look much more like Iran or Indonesia than Pakistan, as in they would venerate and respect pre islamic hertiage and hold it to equal or even greater esteem than their Islamic heritage
This is because we see wherever Islam becomes the majority religion, it essentially follows the same path, they start to venerate and respect their pre islamic cultural heritage, it happened in Iran, with Turks, in Indonesia, and even in Bangladesh, it would happen here as well, infact, The language they would use would be more Sanskritised depending upon their location
hmm Intetesting, it is interesting that as far as I can tell there wasn’t much I. Rhe way of trying to convert people
 
hmm Intetesting, it is interesting that as far as I can tell there wasn’t much I. Rhe way of trying to convert peopl
Many seem to be content with taxation and meagre conversions, no one really tried to Indianize the faith for it to be be widespread in India
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Many seem to be content with taxation and meagre conversions, no one really tried to Indianize the faith for it to be be widespread in India
Intetesting there would be a lot needing changed for them to do it I suppose
 
Or is the fact that they were Muslim vastly overplayed in the reasoning for why it all went south for them?
Yes.

Islam was not a weakening factor, and in fact many "Hindus" saw them as holy because of their (markedly islamic) piety.

In my view the only way Islam hindered the later Mughals (post 1707) was it meant that the common muslim on the street expected to be able to get imperial adjudication in their favour in ongoing disputes if they managed to gather a mob saying the "faith" had somehow been attacked. Obviously that has nothing to do with the reason the dynasty as a whole fell which was primarily just Aurangzeb being unable to trust his sons/ being too conniving, which meant no one was able to effectively manage problems as they arose.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Yes.

Islam was not a weakening factor, and in fact many "Hindus" saw them as holy because of their (markedly islamic) piety.

In my view the only way Islam hindered the later Mughals (post 1707) was it meant that the common muslim on the street expected to be able to get imperial adjudication in their favour in ongoing disputes if they managed to gather a mob saying the "faith" had somehow been attacked. Obviously that has nothing to do with the reason the dynasty as a whole fell which was primarily just Aurangzeb being unable to trust his sons/ being too conniving, which meant no one was able to effectively manage problems as they arose.
Interesting, so, would it be fair to say that with the right rulers, the Mughals could consolidate, hold their own and shape India in their image or in a way they like? And if so, could this help deal with or handle the age of nationalism
 
Yes.

Islam was not a weakening factor, and in fact many "Hindus" saw them as holy because of their (markedly islamic) piety.

In my view the only way Islam hindered the later Mughals (post 1707) was it meant that the common muslim on the street expected to be able to get imperial adjudication in their favour in ongoing disputes if they managed to gather a mob saying the "faith" had somehow been attacked. Obviously that has nothing to do with the reason the dynasty as a whole fell which was primarily just Aurangzeb being unable to trust his sons/ being too conniving, which meant no one was able to effectively manage problems as they arose.
I would not say that, Islam and Hinduism was ver different to each other and what may seem favorable to one caste or ethnicity might not be seen the same by others, other to that the inherit ability of Hinduism to integrate beliefs, but lack of Islam to do the same might leave a lot of room for potential conflict
 
but lack of Islam to do the same might leave a lot of room for potential conflict
You're ignoring that Muslims in India were very much able to regard Hindu holy men as holy, and revere "Hindu" sacred texts through a sufi philosophical lense.

Islam is more flexible than you seem to acknowledge, and shouldnt be generalised as inherently intolerant or unable to accommodate other knowledge/belief systems.
 
I'd say yes and no. Yes, because of the simple fact that if the Mughals survive as rulers of India into the 19th and 20th century, eventually somebody will view them as illegitimate or problematic based on religion. Whether this belief is widespread is a different story. In modern times many people romanticize the Maratha Empire as being the Hindu version of the Mughals. However, we know that the Maratha Peshwas kept the Mughal Emperor as a figurehead simply because his legitimacy was so strong in North India, among Hindus and especially Muslims. Now whether this was done simply in the name of realpolitik or because the Marathas actually preferred to keep the Timurid Emperors on the throne due to their illustrious ancestry is kind of irrelevant, because regardless religion was not enough of an important factor to overthrow the Mughals and place one of their own on the Peacock Throne. In some ATL maybe the Peshawar would have done so, but they would only be able to because of increased political power, not by any religious mandate or what have you.

Now of course this is the 18th century, but even going into modern times, the religion issue most probably would not be enough to end Mughal rule over all of India. Let's say it's 1900, and the Gurkani Emperor still rules all of India. Now at this point one might expect large agitation for independence in the South and Deccan. Perhaps some agitation would occur, yet at this point the "Mughals" have ruled over all of India for just around two centuries. To do this, the Mughals would have to pacify the nobility of the South and the Deccan, like they did in the North. And after two centuries of this being the case most likely people in the South and Deccan would ultimately not give too much of a shit about the Mughals being Muslim, given that this India would be at least 1/3 muslim, probably more due to the survival of the Gurkani Sultanate. Their dynasty was regarded as extremely illustrious and being not originally Indian actually gave them a bit of an advantage in uniting the squabbling Indian Kings. Another thing is that even into the 20th century, more likely than not India will be very decentralized. It will still be a united area, but the only real way people will accept Mughal rule is if they are given a lot of autonomy. Having a Hindu Empress by tradition would also probably help in that regard, but of course that happened OTL with all the later Mughals.

There are also the number of economic benefits. That large of a united market without colonial restrictions would be great for Indian industry, and though most probably industrial Western goods will penetrate into the Indian market in the 19th century; India is just so damn big that the effects of this may not be too bad. Some deindustrialization will still occur simply because of the efficiency of Western industry, but not to the extent of it under British rule. This ATL India will still be very urbanized and have quite a bit of industry. The decline of Indian industry will most definitely have an affect on agitation against the status quo, but it may just be directed towards reform efforts initially as it was in China, Persia and Turkey. We must also remember that no British India will result in huge changes in Asia. Most notably no Opium Wars unless the British can get opium cheap from elsewhere. Also no pounding on Persia (who may or may not be ruled by the Qajars, Zands, Afsharids, Safavids or other dynasty). Most likely the system of coastal European factories would continue, but with the British particularly influential if they still nab Ceylon. Very much dependent on the ATL at hand, but continued Mughal rule probably results in a generally more stable Asia.

Yes, this is one of the best case scenarios, but it is also very much within the realm of possibility. Perhaps the Mughals lose the very South but still keep most of the Deccan, but I think that people often underestimate the resilience of the old Asian Empires. I mean, the Qing survived until 1911 even after a century of the worst humiliations in all of Chinese history. The Ottomans really only fell because of WW1; they were around since 1299 for God's sake! And Iranian history in the past 250 years is honestly just depressing. Don't underestimate how much of the past 3 centuries is an Asia-screw. India is a very different beast entirely, but I do still think the "Mughals" very much can survive to modern times.

Edit: I should also add that the continued reign of the Mughals would very likely result in ever more religious syncretism. An India which is mostly peaceful and united will have the resources, political will, and social imperatives to undergo more religious change during this alt-18th century, especially in challenging the Turkish Caliphate. Think for example the increasing adoption of the writings and philosophy of Dara Shikoh which attempted to unite the Upanishads and Islamic philosophy (with limits of course). This alt-Indian Islam would however give the Mughals a very large boost in legitimacy in the eyes of the non-Muslim population and greatly decrease the chance of them being overthrown based on religion alone. That's just my take on the issue. @Madhukar_Shah could likely give you a better answer.
 
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VVD0D95

Banned
I'd say yes and no. Yes, because of the simple fact that if the Mughals survive as rulers of India into the 19th and 20th century, eventually somebody will view them as illegitimate or problematic based on religion. Whether this belief is widespread is a different story. In modern times many people romanticize the Maratha Empire as being the Hindu version of the Mughals. However, we know that the Maratha Peshwas kept the Mughal Emperor as a figurehead simply because his legitimacy was so strong in North India, among Hindus and especially Muslims. Now whether this was done simply in the name of realpolitik or because the Marathas actually preferred to keep the Timurid Emperors on the throne due to their illustrious ancestry is kind of irrelevant, because regardless religion was not enough of an important factor to overthrow the Mughals and place one of their own on the Peacock Throne.

Now of course this is the 18th century, but even going into modern times, the religion issue most probably would not be enough to end Mughal rule over all of India. Let's say its 1900, and the Mughal Emperor still rules all of India. Now at this point one might expect large agitation for independence in the South and Deccan. Certainly some agitation would occur, yet at this point the Mughals have ruled over all of India for just around two centuries. To do this, the Mughals would have to pacify the nobility of the South and the Deccan, like they did in the North. This is certainly possible, and if/when this happens, most likely people in the South and Deccan would ultimately not give too much of a shit about the Mughals being Muslim. Their dynasty was regarded as extremely illustrious and being not Indian actually gave them a bit of an advantage in uniting the squabbling Indian Kings. Another thing is that even into the 20th century, more likely than not this India will not be really a "country" in the traditional sense, but more of a confederation or commonwealth with significant autonomy for vassal Hindu and Muslim Kings. It will still be a united area, but the only real way people will accept Mughal rule is if they are given a lot of autonomy. Having a Hindu Empress would also probably help in that regard. Also a couple more centuries of Mughal rule might result in more Muslims, perhaps even a plurality.

There are also the number of economic benefits. That large of a united market without colonial restrictions would be great for Indian industry, and though most probably industrial Western goods will penetrate into the Indian market in the 19th century. India is just so damn big that the effects of this may not be too bad. Some deindustrialization will still occur simply because of the efficiency of Western industry, but not to the extent of it under British rule. This India will still be very urbanized and have quite a bit of industry. The decline of Indian industry will most definitely have an affect on agitation against Mughal rule, but we must also remember that no British Indian will result in huge changes in Asia. Most notably no Opium Wars unless the British can colonize SE Asia, but that is still a big maybe. Also no pounding on Persia (who may or may not be ruled by the Qajars, Afsharids, Safavids or other dynasty). Most likely the system of coastal European factories would continue, but with the British particularly influential if they still nab Ceylon. Very much dependent on the ATL at hand, but continued Mughal rule probably results in a generally more stable Asia.

Yes, this is one of the best case scenarios, but it is also very much within the realm of possibility. Perhaps the Mughals lose the very South but still keep most of the Deccan, but I think that people often underestimate the resilience of old, pan ethnic Asian Empires. I mean, the Qing survived until 1911 even after a century of the worst humiliations in all of Chinese history. The Ottomans really only fell because of WW1; they were around since 1299 for God's sake! And Iranian history in the past 250 years is honestly just depressing. Don't underestimate how much of the past 3 centuries is an Asia-screw. Of course, India is a very different beast entirely, but I do still think the Mughals very much can survive to modern times.
Oooh interesting, I suppose it would help as well if the Mughals were seen to celebrate Hindu and Sikh festivals as well. As I believe they did until at least the end of Aurangzeb reign
 
Oooh interesting, I suppose it would help as well if the Mughals were seen to celebrate Hindu and Sikh festivals as well. As I believe they did until at least the end of Aurangzeb reign
Ehh, I mean the Mughals do have to observe some semblance of Islamic Orthodoxy, so that's a maybe. But the common people will definitely continue celebrating both Hindu and Muslims festivals I would think.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Ehh, I mean the Mughals do have to observe some semblance of Islamic Orthodoxy, so that's a maybe. But the common people will definitely continue celebrating both Hindu and Muslims festivals I would think.
Could attend festivals and such tho no? Be part of their role as rulers or a largely Hindu state, good optics erc
 
You're ignoring that Muslims in India were very much able to regard Hindu holy men as holy, and revere "Hindu" sacred texts through a sufi philosophical lense.

Islam is more flexible than you seem to acknowledge, and shouldnt be generalised as inherently intolerant or unable to accommodate other knowledge/belief systems.
Islam is no doubt flexible , but compared to Hinduism, it is severely limited, Hinduism literally adds extra gods and avatar when needed such as Buddha, can Islam ever co opt any non abrahamic religious figure as a prophet for example ? No, Islam is way to stagnant to rigid to do so, when Maratha empire rose, many Islamic scholars were terrified of a Hindu empire replacing Mughals, it just shows that the peace between Hinduism and Islam was very uneasy one in Indian Subcontinent
 
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VVD0D95

Banned
Islam is no doubt flexible no doubt, but compared to Hinduism, it is severely limited, Hinduism literally adds extra gods and avatar when needed such as Buddha, can Islam ever co opt any non abrahamic religious figure as a prophet for example ? No, Islam is way to stagnant to rigid to do so, when Maratha empire rose, many Islamic scholars were terrified of a Hindu empire replacing Mughals, it just shows that the peace between Hinduism and Islam was very uneasy one in Indian Subcontinent
How much of that was because some Maratha propaganda openly spoke of persecuting them? People don’t tend to like those who talk about persecuting them.
 
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