Would a continuing Anglo-Saxon England invade France?
- Thread starter Jimbo808
- Start date
FairlyUninformedGraduate
Gone Fishin'
I've expressed the opinion elsewhere here that absent the norman claims to france there is a greater likelihood of them consolidating the British isles. They would also have a healthier population balance without William starving and burning the north so would be in a better position to do so. Prior to the norman conquest the Anglo saxons were happy to trade with the french duchies but didn't harbour ambitions there, it was William essentially conquering England to finance his continental holdings that changed that.
It was only the Conquest that entangled the English crown with French claims, first through the Norman possessions themselves and then through the Angevin succession. And of course the actual claims to the French crown only came later through Edward III. No conquest, no interest by the English rulers in France and no entanglement.
FairlyUninformedGraduate
Gone Fishin'
Exactly this. the conquest derailed and diverted English attention permanently, reduced the population, limited soldiering to the occupying elites, broke up the existing estates and treasury, and set in motion a chain of marriages and alliances that sucked England into ultimately disastrous continental affairs. Absent this, they focus on the isles.
Though a no-Norman conquest world does not automatically mean that the Anglo-Saxon kings never marry French heiresses or otherwise find profit (or at least seek it) in continental entanglements. Probably not in the same places and the same way as the Normans, but you do have several hundred years of history (between the Conquest and losing Calais for good) that could go a variety of ways in terms of marital alliances.
My money would be on, if something like that develops, it being more tied to Flanders and Normandy than Aquitaine/Gascony, though.
My money would be on, if something like that develops, it being more tied to Flanders and Normandy than Aquitaine/Gascony, though.
Continuing entanglements with the continent might end up being more Germanic- an England that's got Scotland comfortably subjugated might end up by the 1100s linked to the holy Roman empire.
Not sure I agree with the characterization of the English crown before William as insular and non-continental. It’s involvement with Scandinavian affairs was considerable, and there wouldn’t even have been a Norman claim without there having been an English court that was dabbling in Norman politics. England was already involved with continental powers and dynasties, it didn’t need the Normans to introduce that.
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The answer to this question really depends on the POD.
England had a strong and long-established connection with northern Europe, as Ulyanovsk says, and its connections with western Europe had already begun to form. Æthelred the Unready had a Norman wife and had signed the Treaty of Rouen with Richard I of Normandy. Edward the Confessor had spent a large majority of his life as an exile in Normandy and seems to have brought a number of Norman knights with him when he returned as king. If the POD is that the Confessor has a son, then I'd wager that the boy would be arranged to marry a Norman, Breton or Flemish girl considering the Confessor's connections on the continent and his concern about the overpowerful Godwin family. If the POD is that Edward the Exile or Edgar Ætheling survive, then again I suspect that the Ætheling gets arranged to wed a Norman girl for the exact same reason. If the POD is that Harold Godwinson wins Hastings, then a more isolated England through the rest of the 11th and into the early 12th centuries seems more likely. Harold surviving has always looked like the most boring Anglo-Saxon timeline to me -- unless perhaps the Godwinsons drive the surviving Wessex family into exile and Margaret weds Robert Curthose, thus setting a very different Norman Conquest.
England had a strong and long-established connection with northern Europe, as Ulyanovsk says, and its connections with western Europe had already begun to form. Æthelred the Unready had a Norman wife and had signed the Treaty of Rouen with Richard I of Normandy. Edward the Confessor had spent a large majority of his life as an exile in Normandy and seems to have brought a number of Norman knights with him when he returned as king. If the POD is that the Confessor has a son, then I'd wager that the boy would be arranged to marry a Norman, Breton or Flemish girl considering the Confessor's connections on the continent and his concern about the overpowerful Godwin family. If the POD is that Edward the Exile or Edgar Ætheling survive, then again I suspect that the Ætheling gets arranged to wed a Norman girl for the exact same reason. If the POD is that Harold Godwinson wins Hastings, then a more isolated England through the rest of the 11th and into the early 12th centuries seems more likely. Harold surviving has always looked like the most boring Anglo-Saxon timeline to me -- unless perhaps the Godwinsons drive the surviving Wessex family into exile and Margaret weds Robert Curthose, thus setting a very different Norman Conquest.
Anglo-Saxon England seem more North Sea oriented than southern oriented. The Normans seem to have brought England into political relationship focusing on Southern Europe and internal French politics. It seems to me that lasted until the Reformation where the British focus shifted to Northern Europe. It also seem to me that trade route favored a more northern focus even in the Middle Ages. In fact maybe AS England would join the Northern Crusades and have far less focus on the Levantine Crusades, even if the British state doesn’t join, the Danish king made heavy use of Westphalian nobility in their administration of their Baltic conquest and it could easily shift to them making use of English nobility instead.
I can't see most of modern day France but if you consider burgandy part of France (in the most decentralized way) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_State
I could see a Anglo-Saxon England cooperation with the HRE to enforce thier claims on central burgandy while England focuses on seizing the burgundian low country's for its self due to its easy access to the english logistics network just a stones throw away from the channel. If england goes down this route the Low Franconian areas are the easiest areas for England to access and the most likly to fall into at least its sphere.
en.m.wikipedia.org
They would also probably push into otl french Nord Pas de Calais in order to control the eastern entrance of the english channel
en.m.wikipedia.org
Linguisticly the germanic parts of the low contrys modern day are closer to otl english then both French and German likly do to the german dialect english developed from being being ajacent to the low country's dialects through Old Saxony
en.m.wikipedia.org
so without otl French influence on english in this timeline long term english ownership of the low countries should make english and the low contrys even more similar linguisticly. Interestingly while a saxon England does not have any claim in France like a Norman England they have theoreticl claim to the saxon HRE
en.m.wikipedia.org
if the HRE and England maintains good relations I see England allying with thier fellow Saxons and building out a sphear of influance but if HRE turns hostile at some point (prehapse wanting to eject Anglo saxon England from the neatherlands, or feeling threatened by Englandbuilding its own sphere of influance) I could see England trying to forge a alliance with the Scandinavians or France (assuming England did not go further beyond Nord Pas De Calais and piss them off) to keep them off. If england comes out on top long term I could see them consolidating thier influance in the old duchy of Saxony and prehapse in a few centuries try to unite them in a crown in personal union with England kind of like otl Hanover.
en.m.wikipedia.org
(In short Anglo Saxon England is likly to have limited stratigic reasions to invade france [control of the channel] but if we extend the idea of France to include burgandy and thus the low country's there are more things to motivate England [similer germanic dialect, the high value of medieval flanders cannot be understated and control of the mouth of the Rhine gives them control of a huge economic artery] beyond the idea of the "natural" french border of the Rhine reasions for english intrest start to drop off but if are still present you are willing to streach the idea of france to its maximum limmit through the frankish empire which allow you to consider the old saxon region which would be more meaningful to a anglo-saxon england then it would to a norman England)
en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org
I could see a Anglo-Saxon England cooperation with the HRE to enforce thier claims on central burgandy while England focuses on seizing the burgundian low country's for its self due to its easy access to the english logistics network just a stones throw away from the channel. If england goes down this route the Low Franconian areas are the easiest areas for England to access and the most likly to fall into at least its sphere.
Low Franconian - Wikipedia
Nord-Pas-de-Calais - Wikipedia
Old Saxony - Wikipedia
Low Saxon - Wikipedia
Duchy of Saxony - Wikipedia
Natural borders of France - Wikipedia
Francia - Wikipedia
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It's not an all or nothing situation. It's entirely possible that a surviving anglo-saxon England would be involved in France but not to the degree of controlling half the country and regularly fighting the French kings for influence. I think an anglo-saxon England would have closer ties to Scandinavia than to France but as others have said it depends on the POD.
Agreed. I don't think Anglo-Saxon England's continental involvement would play out similarly at all, but they would definitely still happen.
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