Would a Continued Anglo-Saxon England be able conquer Scotland during the middle ages?

Say the Battle of Hastings is a Saxon victory or the Normans just never invade England. Would a continued Anglo-Saxon England be able to successfully take over and keep Scotland during the Middle Ages?
A continued Saxon England would lack the continental commitments of Normans but at the same time wouldn't have access to the wealthier French holdings. Without the Normans, I don't see anything like the Auld Alliance occurring given the lack of conflicts between the Saxons and French. I imagine Scotland would have just as many links with a Saxon England as they did with the Normans.
 
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I would say yeah. Wales would have been first on the Conquering list but the Anglo-Saxons would be very into the idea of unyfing the whole of the British Isles. The finishing of Alfred the Great's work so to speak.
 
Say the Battle of Hastings is a Saxon victory or the Normans just never invade England. Would a continued Anglo-Saxon England be able to successfully take over and keep Scotland during the Middle Ages?
A continued Saxon England would lack the continental commitments of Normans but at the same time wouldn't have access to the wealthier French holdings. Without the Normans, I don't see anything like the Auld Alliance occurring given the lack of conflicts between the Saxons and French. I imagine Scotland would have just as many links with a Saxon England as they did with the Normans.
First England had many ties to the Continent, it might not have had the same direct holdings but they were intertwined and this was growing. Flanders and England long had a relationship, even Normans were in England before William decided to engage on his bloody genocidal conquest.

Now I am not sure on the wealth matter. Yes the french lands are more prosperous than the English ones, but on the other hand I am not sure how much the norman lords actually invested back into their holdings in England over just using it as a piggy bank to invest in their french holdings. Where as the Anglo-Saxons would be investing in England. There is also the fact that without the Norman Conquest, the country of England wouldn't have been utterly devestated. This especially true for Northern England which William basically genocided during his harrying of the north.

Then there is the fact that England and Scotland had ties before the Normans showed up. The kings of Scotland had been allying and marrying into the families of England for sometime. Saint Margaret of Scotland, aka Margret of Wessex, was the daughter of Edward the Exile(father of Edgar the Aetheling) and married to Malcom Canmore of Scotland. Moreover the Northern Lords of England, ie the Eorls of Northumbria were involved in the politics of Scotland. For example Siward of Northumbria would be involved in the essentially civil war between Malcom and Macbeth, Siward sided with Malcom.

Of course none of this actually answers the question. Would England be able to conquer scotland? Probably is my best guess. but we also must ask why is such a war being fought in the first place. Especially in this era, the personal relationships matter a lot, and their own particular ambitions and natures can throw off what the ruling king wishes.
 
Yeah definitely, if England isn't concentrating its energies on France, Scotland is next in the firing line
 
I'd say it had about the same chance as OTL England did, but I'm not sure those odds are very high looking at Edward Longshanks's campaigns.

Not to say impossible, but it's not a cakewalk.
 
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I mean, if anything, that England would be able to pull it off sooner by not blowing countless men and money in every part of western Europe. Plus, France wouldn't really care
 
It wouldn't even necessarily have to be a conquest. as mentioned above there were already dynastic ties so it wouldn't take much for the heir of the king of England and the heir to the king of Scots to just be the same person.
 
Likely more profitable and enforceable for the English in the middle ages is instead of full conquest of the Scottish Highlands is enforcing traditional tanistry and making it so the king elect must be crowned by the archbishop of York (with the English enforcing York's authority over the Scottish church). This isn't blatant domination, as you're upholding tradition and sacralising their authority, but by keeping a succession system that favours disputes where you can act as mediator and needing the elected candidate to meet with an archbishop who's seat is firmly in your territory to confirm themselves is pretty effective vassalisation. Wouldn't be difficult to accumulate much of the lowlands as payment for your role as mediator either.
 
Yeah definitely, if England isn't concentrating its energies on France, Scotland is next in the firing line
The question is why are they fighting? just for more land? What is the reason for the two kingdoms to be at war?

also the question matters is what is the state of England and Scotland in this war? If England is divided internally and Scotland is not, or the other way around that changes things.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I think if the idea of the King of England being Emperor of the British, a la Athelstan, is looked at, then one is looking to defeat and dominate the kings of Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, rather than make a territorial grab.

This could even be seen as a parallel to the different dukes that the King of France had to try to impose his will over in order to rule in any forthright fashion.

Athelstan has already set a precedent, and Canute got the King of Scotland to submit to him.
 
I think if the idea of the King of England being Emperor of the British, a la Athelstan, is looked at, then one is looking to defeat and dominate the kings of Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, rather than make a territorial grab.

This could even be seen as a parallel to the different dukes that the King of France had to try to impose his will over in order to rule in any forthright fashion.

Athelstan has already set a precedent, and Canute got the King of Scotland to submit to him.
Would he use the title emperor?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Would he use the title emperor?
Athelstan did, sometimes. It's not as grand a title as we think of it - one of the medieval Alphonsos called himself Emperor of Spain when he was able to unite the various Spanish kingdoms under himself, for a while.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
It’ll have to be a Diplomatic Victory, because Domination is pretty dicey - the Saxons will likely still be using the shieldwall sans longbows or cavalry, and the Scots are more than prepared for that kind of straight melee.
 
It’ll have to be a Diplomatic Victory, because Domination is pretty dicey - the Saxons will likely still be using the shieldwall sans longbows or cavalry, and the Scots are more than prepared for that kind of straight melee.
Not necessarily. Anglo-Saxon warfare, like anyone else’s, adapted to the threat it faced. There was already a drift toward larger estates for thegns in 11th century Anglo Saxon England, and the fyrd was already set up to provide good mounted infantry. It wouldn’t take a lot to increase the requirements for fyrdmen to match the heavier equipment needed for heavy Cavalry as long as you balance it by increasing the number of hides that support them. You could also incorporate a requirement for longbow men easily enough. The Anglo-Saxons fought the Welsh enough to grow an appreciation for their effectiveness and this would likely increase if they actually conquered the place.

The Carolingian empire had a system quite similar to the Anglo-Saxon fyrd and they still produced some very good heavy cavalry and missile troops. In fact it could be argued that they are a good example of the transition from this system to a more heavy cavalry focused manorial setup. The danger for the Anglo-Saxons is likely not creating heavy cavalry or missile infantry forces but maintaining their high quality infantry while transitioning.
 
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Maybe a title like Casere Bretanrice or Brettisc Casere? With his wife styled as Caseren.


I think something in the form Bretene Casere would be more likely, Old English texts tend to style monarchs as "Land's King".
As regards "Bretwalda", I think scholarship is divided on how much of a meaningful title it actually was, and whether the "Bret" in it is actually derived from Britain, and not from some similar words meaning "to break" or "wide". In any case, there's precedent for the English adopting a new title when they actually achieve hegemony in reality, many petty Kings minted coins with Rex Britanniae, but when the England was actually formed, and the Saxons achieved control over most of Roman Britannia, they actually used Rex Angulsaxonum.
 
In terms of Titles, there doesn't need to be a new title and just use the title that the Scottish kings were using if they were to actually take it over.
 
The question is why are they fighting? just for more land? What is the reason for the two kingdoms to be at war?

also the question matters is what is the state of England and Scotland in this war? If England is divided internally and Scotland is not, or the other way around that changes things.
Anglo Saxon England was already united for a hundred years before William, there's no reason to think it would divide if William lost.

As for why fight, why not? More land, more money, more taxpayers, more glory. Same things that always motivated medieval kings
 
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