Worst provisions of versailles treaty

[Germany]

What were the worst provisions in post ww1 versailles treaty for Germany stability in short and long term and how could this provisions have been changed or removed to stabilize Germany both politically and economically in the short and long term , hopefully avoiding the rise of Nazi Germany.

The Treaty of Versailles Punished Defeated Germany With These Provisions | HISTORY

Some provisions of the World War I peace treaty disarmed the German military, while others stripped the defeated nation of territory, population and economic resources, and forced it to admit responsibility for the war and agree to pay reparations.

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[NoMommsen]

... as noone has dared so far to throw his hat into the ring ...
Possibly or even probably the part or single article with the largest effect and impact on germany was Art. 231 :

The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies.​

The often so-called "war-guilt-clause".
As written it was perceived by every german as placing all guilt and responsibility for the war as such on the german people and populace alone; thereby absolutate whatever coresponsibility there had been (to whatever extent I don't want to discuss or even see discussed here what would completly derail thsi thread).

With being responsible for - at least most - of the destruction caused by the war in occupied regions ... most germans could get along and accept. ... regardless the embarrasing high reparation demands.

Therefore ... IMHO if the part of

"... imposed upon them by the agression of Germany and her allies."​

should have been simply deleted and thereby greatly improving the acceptance of the treaty with recuperations on actual payment and willingness of payment (would have been also somewhat ... conductive if the entente powers would have been more leaning to further negotiations of the terms earlier on ... and not only after everything went BOOM with the Rheinland-occupation and hyperinflation) as well as taking away a great deal of the anti-ToV propaganda with recuperations on the standing of the political right-wing factions.

Could have been the smallest change with IMHO the greatest effect (though by far not guaranteering that everything would now rum "well and smoothly").

edit :
Something to add about the "nergotiation" part above :
Even in 1871 the germans allowed the french to talk about the peace treaty conditions and some - though perhaps minor - actually were changed leading to the final Treaty of Frankfurt.
In Versailled the germans were not allowed such ... courtesy as at that time perceived rather normal diplomatic behavior since the Peace of Westphalia.
Just another insult not helping in acceptance of the ToV.

 

[Countess Whitewing]

Honestly, not having the defeated parties as part of the peace negotiations was a strike against the Treaty of Versailles. Another was arguably not having Pope Benedict XV in attendance as well as he had been arguing for peace since the beginning of the war. President Wilson having the gall to use the Pope's 1917 Peace Note as a basis for his Fourteen Points was IMHO an insult to the Holy See, especially since the Pope wasn't there.

If the Treaty of Versailles had used the Pope's 1917 Peace Note as the guidelines for the Treaty things might have turned out for the better. However, I still think that Germany would lose some territory and colonies, just not as much as they actually did. I see the Germans losing the South Pacific, the Chinese holdings, Togoland, Alsace-Lorraine, Northern Schleswig, Bitburg-Prum, Trier-Saarburg and Saarland. Togoland goes to the Netherlands. Alsace-Lorraine to France. Bitburg-Prum to Luxembourg. Trier-Saarburg and Saarland end up either as part of Luxembourg or under Benelux management. Northern Schleswig goes to Denmark. Everyone has a proportional demilitarization like the Pope called for. Poland still happens though likely uses one of the Curzon lines and might not include the Posen/Pomerania or West Prussia region or at least the Poles move further south east and Danzig remains a Free City. As for the need for Poland having access to the Baltic Sea, well some agreement could probably be made between Poland, Danzig and the Baltic States.

Edit: Oops, I realized I forgot about the Danish land gain.

 

[Sarthak]

The treaty of Versailles has been way way overblown in modern times. Other than the war guilt clause which made the population of Germany angry, all of the other provisions were fine and were somewhat expected by the diplomats, even if the German administration did not wish to accept that fact. The Armed Limitations were done with the purpose of being lifted slowly and steadily and by the time Hitler took power, the army limitations had been lifted by a third. If Hitler had waited until 1944 doing nothing that looked like rearmament, the armed limitations would have been revoked by then in their entirety. Really, the 'stab in the back' myth and this treaty of versailles caused ww2 myth really needs to be killed fast

 

[NoMommsen]

... waited until 1942...

... may I ask where you got this number from ?

 

[AltoRegnant]

That it made germany angry enough to want revenge but didn't separate enough territory to limit their ability to do so; so the provisions surrounding European borders

 

[Whiteshore]

The treaty of Versailles has been way way overblown in modern times. Other than the war guilt clause which made the population of Germany angry, all of the other provisions were fine and were somewhat expected by the diplomats, even if the German administration did not wish to accept that fact. The Armed Limitations were done with the purpose of being lifted slowly and steadily and by the time Hitler took power, the army limitations had been lifted by a third. If Hitler had waited until 1944 doing nothing that looked like rearmament, the armed limitations would have been revoked by then in their entirety. Really, the 'stab in the back' myth and this treaty of versailles caused ww2 myth really needs to be killed fast

Versailles wasn't even the worst treaty imposed by the Entente on the vanquished enemies after they had won, considering that both the Treaty of Sevres and the Treaty of Trianon were far harsher than Versailles.

 

[marathag]

Versailles wasn't even the worst treaty imposed by the Entente on the vanquished enemies after they had won, considering that both the Treaty of Sevres and the Treaty of Trianon were far harsher than Versailles.

Given the shape of Austria and Hungary, and Turkey, they never paid any reparations.
Only Germany was forced to, being left with mostly intact economy, and then the conditions in the ToV, like the enforced 'Free' Market where the Germans could set no Tariffs, yet the Entente could protect their own markets, and the confiscation of the German Merchant Marine. French Occupation to get the reparations didn't help, either

How were the Germans supposed to repay that 269 Billion Gold Marks? That was 96,000 tons of Gold, or around half of the entire Worlds current Gold Reserves at that point in 1919

1870, Germans imposed five billion Gold Franc indemnity to be paid before occupation would end . This amount matched what Napoleon imposed on Prussia, in 1807 in per capita ratio

Before the Great War, one ounce of Gold was 410 Francs, and later the Franc was defined as 0.290322 g of Gold, or 1451 tons to be handed over in 1870 over five years

that was doable, and yes, the French paid that.
96,000 tons? that was not doable by an intact German Empire of 1913, let alone the broken-up Germany of 1919

 

[Sarthak]

Given the shape of Austria and Hungary, and Turkey, they never paid any reparations.
Only Germany was forced to, being left with mostly intact economy, and then the conditions in the ToV, like the enforced 'Free' Market where the Germans could set no Tariffs, yet the Entente could protect their own markets, and the confiscation of the German Merchant Marine. French Occupation to get the reparations didn't help, either

How were the Germans supposed to repay that 269 Billion Gold Marks? That was 96,000 tons of Gold, or around half of the entire Worlds current Gold Reserves at that point in 1919

1870, Germans imposed five billion Gold Franc indemnity to be paid before occupation would end . This amount matched what Napoleon imposed on Prussia, in 1807 in per capita ratio

Before the Great War, one ounce of Gold was 410 Francs, and later the Franc was defined as 0.290322 g of Gold, or 1451 tons to be handed over in 1870 over five years

that was doable, and yes, the French paid that.
96,000 tons? that was not doable by an intact German Empire of 1913, let alone the broken-up Germany of 1919

World War I reparations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Read the analysis. The German unwillingness to raise taxes by even 0.5 percent and create a broader economic policy literally contributed to half of its inability to pay off the loans.

Also for countries that had no specific amount listed, Austria and Hungary paid around a fifth of their nation wealth to the allies. Germany didn't. Their taking of loans with no proper credit or collateral led to their economic collapse in 1931. Not the war reparations. Bulgaria, who got imposed the same proportion of war reparations suffered through manpower shortages for their economy and being diplomatically isolated but economically they did average enough to show that the war reparations imposed could be dealt with.

 

[AltoRegnant]

that was doable, and yes, the French paid that.
96,000 tons? that was not doable by an intact German Empire of 1913, let alone the broken-up Germany of 1919

How was germany broken up? Really, how much damage did their territorial loss do to their economy? They lost 10% of their land and about that GDP; they controlled the wealthiest areas of mainland Europe bar none, and the war hadnt been fought on german soil bar alsace-Lorraine, the rebuilding of which was now France's problem

 

[marathag]

Read the analysis. The German unwillingness to raise taxes by even 0.5 percent and create a broader economic policy literally contributed to half of its inability to pay off the loans.

raising taxes on a weakened economy isn't the way to a strong recovery, or even a weak one.

And the ToV prevented Germany from doing any new Tariffs, or enforcing the existing ones. Being made a zero Duties nation, Entente nations could dump goods, undercutting local companies, while German exports had to pay the Entente protectionist duties and tariffs, and had to create new shipping lines, since the Merchant Marine and Liners had all been confiscated, transport costs were far higher than before the war

Germany couldn't rely on exports to keep their economy going, that had been the way for decades

 

[marathag]

How was germany broken up

Prussia cut off, and this new area called 'Poland' between them.
loss of all Colonies

 

[AdA]

Lack of any form of self determination for german populations left outside of the Republic. With or without Nazism, having millions of people finding themselves in another country without having had a chance to express their will was a European war waiting to happen.
A larger Germany would be less dangerous than a revisionist Germany.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Prussia cut off, and this new area called 'Poland' between them.
loss of all Colonies

The colonies were a net sink for germany, and my point was Germany hadnt actually lost that much- poland was certainly the biggest loss, but they still had silesia, the Rhine, and the kiel canal.

 

[NoMommsen]

The colonies were a net sink for germany, ...

Where from do you have this information ? ... as it doesn't actually fit with the statistical data of the German realm statistical yearbooks you might want to consult.
Going by them the last couple of years most of the german colonies were nearing or laready surpassing point breakeven. Some even swung a net profit (Southwest Africa ... Diamonds i.e. , ;-D). ... only the largest of the 'settler' colonies german East Africa was only slow in closing the gap to breakeven and needed a net influx of money/aka goods (though most of typical 'investment-goods' as i.e. railways).

... the Rhine, and the kiel canal.

Erhmm you know ... ALL shippable german waterways were internationalized ? ... and Germany deprieved of any tolls on them ?
Article 321 f.f. ToV

... and regarding Silesia ... the most valuable parts were eventually - despite their population voted different - handed to Poland.

 

[Germany]

How much different would not having the war guilt clause have of post war Germany political stability?

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

they controlled the wealthiest areas of mainland Europe bar none

Wasn't A-L up there with Silesia and the Rhineland in terms of Industrial wealth? Its loss was a pretty sizable economic blow to Germany.

 

[GSpectre]

The treaty that ended the Franco Prussian war shows clearly enough that the myth that the treaty of Versailles was responsible for WWII needs to die in a fire. It was a perfectly acceptable treaty for the times, he'll it was much more lieniant then what the Germans thought was appropriate, just look at Brest-(I forget the second name) which ended the Russians involvement in WWI. Really, just because the German government was too proud and too incompetent to fulfill thier treaty obligations, unlike the French, is no reason to blame the treaty. If anything the problem was enforcement. When the germans started to cheat the French army along with the British should have marched... Unfortunatly the political will wasnt there.

 

[AltoRegnant]

just look at Brest-Livtosk which ended the Russians involvement in WWI.

emphasis mine to remind you- and i generally agree with your conclusions

 

[Mikestone8]

Will *any* change to the ToV prevent the rise of Nazism, unless it somehow butterflies away the Great Depression?