Wittelsbach grandchildren of Sigismund Vasa

krieger

Banned
Makes sense. But I wonder if the king of Poland's sister - perhaps Kostanze Magdalene - might be a better fit for the Great Elector's eldest son. Or Sigmund IV's youngest daughter for a gender-flipped Luise Dorothea of Prussia (b.1680)?
Friedrich (OTL Friedrich I of Prussia) wasn't the eldest surviving son of the Great Elector. Eldest was Karl Emil, who died at war with French. So if he married and managed to produce a son before his death, the internal affairs of Brandenburg would be indeed interesting.
 
Friedrich (OTL Friedrich I of Prussia) wasn't the eldest surviving son of the Great Elector. Eldest was Karl Emil, who died at war with French. So if he married and managed to produce a son before his death, the internal affairs of Brandenburg would be indeed interesting.

Well, Karl Emil was engaged (before he died) to the queen of Poland (Eleonora of Austria)'s sister, Maria Anna Josefa of Austria. So, had he lived, Brandenburg would have a link with Poland (married to the queen's sister, admittedly) which makes one wonder if they would bother with a first cousin marriage between Karl Emil's kid and Sigmund IV's in the next generation?
 
Well, Karl Emil was engaged (before he died) to the queen of Poland (Eleonora of Austria)'s sister, Maria Anna Josefa of Austria. So, had he lived, Brandenburg would have a link with Poland (married to the queen's sister, admittedly) which makes one wonder if they would bother with a first cousin marriage between Karl Emil's kid and Sigmund IV's in the next generation?
Maria Anna Josefa could die withouth surviving children like IOTL (or at least without sons) thus Karl Emil could remarry.

For personality of Zygmunt IV I'd propose popularity and military skills of Władysław IV with politicall skills of Zygmunt III. Zygmunt Wittelsbach is aslo luckilly does not have menthal health problems, which were common in previous Vasa generations.
 

krieger

Banned
Well, Karl Emil was engaged (before he died) to the queen of Poland (Eleonora of Austria)'s sister, Maria Anna Josefa of Austria. So, had he lived, Brandenburg would have a link with Poland (married to the queen's sister, admittedly) which makes one wonder if they would bother with a first cousin marriage between Karl Emil's kid and Sigmund IV's in the next generation?
Yes, he was. IOTL. ITTL she marries the heir to Palatinate, Karl Philip. So there is a need to search for another bride for Karl Emil ITTL. And Magdalena Konstancja is perfect for this purpose.
 

krieger

Banned
Maria Anna Josefa could die withouth surviving children like IOTL (or at least without sons) thus Karl Emil could remarry.

For personality of Zygmunt IV I'd propose popularity and military skills of Władysław IV with politicall skills of Zygmunt III. Zygmunt Wittelsbach is aslo luckilly does not have menthal health problems, which were common in previous Vasa generations.
I think You decided to marry Maria Anna Josepha to Charles Philip of Palatinate. Even if Zygmunt IV has such a personality, he would still face troubles with House of Envoys.
 
I think You decided to marry Maria Anna Josepha to Charles Philip of Palatinate. Even if Zygmunt IV has such a personality, he would still face troubles with House of Envoys.
Still, Zygmunt III dealt with it way better than his sons, who, beside being fools themselves, were surronded by idiots like Ossoliński.

Also, surviving Karl Emil seems to be better candidate for Maria Anna Josepha, double Habsburg-Wittelsbach marriage could be seen as waste. I wonder if it is possible for Karl Philipp of Palatinate to marry sister of his stepmother?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Hedwig_of_Hesse-Darmstadt
 
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krieger

Banned
Still, Zygmunt III dealt with it way better than his sons, who, beside being fools themselves, were surronded by idiots like Ossoliński.

Also, surviving Karl Emil seems to be better candidate for Maria Anna Josepha, double Habsburg-Wittelsbach marriage could be seen as waste. I wonder if it is possible for Karl Philipp of Palatinate to marry sister of his stepmother?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Hedwig_of_Hesse-Darmstadt
Yes, indeed but this won't be enough in a long time (short-term gains would be obvious). I didn't write about surviving Karl Emil. I thought about him marrying and having children, but still predeceasing his father.
 
Yes, indeed but this won't be enough in a long time (short-term gains would be obvious). I didn't write about surviving Karl Emil. I thought about him marrying and having children, but still predeceasing his father.
Not enough for what? For PLC keeping power status? That waa never possible in long run. But should be enough for survival. Improved demography and economy also is frequently overlooked factor-bigger population, better educated (because they have money to afford education for their sons) elites, that enables creation of proffessional administration (something that already starter IOTL, and without ruin of GNW would start earlier). That would make difference. PLC would be harder to swallow, and even if it happen, it would cause much worse digestive problems for those who eaten it.
 

krieger

Banned
Not enough for what? For PLC keeping power status? That waa never possible in long run. But should be enough for survival. Improved demography and economy also is frequently overlooked factor-bigger population, better educated (because they have money to afford education for their sons) elites, that enables creation of proffessional administration (something that already starter IOTL, and without ruin of GNW would start earlier). That would make difference. PLC would be harder to swallow, and even if it happen, it would cause much worse digestive problems for those who eaten it.
I'm afraid that it won't be enough to survive too. Even in case of existence of all these advantages, noble republic is serious disandvantage itself and even if a King is stripped from all his power it is doubtful if nobility would be able to manage to keep such a large country in order alone. I disagree. Saying that it was impossible for PLC to keep It's power status in a long run is determinism.
 
I'm afraid that it won't be enough to survive too. Even in case of existence of all these advantages, noble republic is serious disandvantage itself and even if a King is stripped from all his power it is doubtful if nobility would be able to manage to keep such a large country in order alone. I disagree. Saying that it was impossible for PLC to keep It's power status in a long run is determinism.
With Wittelsbachs being de facto hereditary rulers of PLC in age of legitimism partitions and disinheriting rulling dynasty, intermarried with Habsburgs, would not be the same thing as doing the same thing to mr. Nobody like Poniatowski, even if it means that PLC exist only as Russo-Austrian protectorate.
PLC was changing and was far more effective state in 1790 than in 1760. Poles were not unable to make reforms, OTL clearly proved it.
 

krieger

Banned
With Wittelsbachs being de facto hereditary rulers of PLC in age of legitimism partitions and disinheriting rulling dynasty, intermarried with Habsburgs, would not be the same thing as doing the same thing to mr. Nobody like Poniatowski, even if it means that PLC exist only as Russo-Austrian protectorate.
PLC was changing and was far more effective state in 1790 than in 1760. Poles were not unable to make reforms, OTL clearly proved it.

It's not the case. ITTL internal struggles would be far more dangerous than external. For example if some of descendants of ITTL Sigismund IV would be accused (it's not important if this accusation is/was true or it wasn't/isn't) of striving for absolutism, some clique of nobles would launch an uprising, some other clique of nobles will side with King, Cossacks will rise up - this chain of events is a biggest danger for PLC ITTL.
 
It's not the case. ITTL internal struggles would be far more dangerous than external. For example if some of descendants of ITTL Sigismund IV would be accused (it's not important if this accusation is/was true or it wasn't/isn't) of striving for absolutism, some clique of nobles would launch an uprising, some other clique of nobles will side with King, Cossacks will rise up - this chain of events is a biggest danger for PLC ITTL.
This is why reforms in PLC never happened and Polish nobility had to be exterminated by partitioners to calm situation, and why defensors of 3rd May Constitution faced country-wide guerilla of angry nobles ;)
 

krieger

Banned
This is why reforms in PLC never happened and Polish nobility had to be exterminated by partitioners to calm situation, and why defensors of 3rd May Constitution faced country-wide guerilla of angry nobles ;)

Oh, such a funny irony. So why did they happen so late? And the creators of 3rd May Constitution had to face Targowica Confederation and it was country-wide uprising of angry magnates,
 
Oh, such a funny irony. So why did they happen so late? And the creators of 3rd May Constitution had to face Targowica Confederation and it was country-wide uprising of angry magnates,
The status quo was far more favorable to the magnates than under a new constitution or new reforms and since they were extremely powerful on their own and had the ability to call in foreign support in “defense of their traditional privileges/liberty”, the reforms never got done and when they did it triggered the Commonwealths end. Even the majority of the Szlachta supported reforms and opposed large magnate families but by then it was too late.
 
The status quo was far more favorable to the magnates than under a new constitution or new reforms and since they were extremely powerful on their own and had the ability to call in foreign support in “defense of their traditional privileges/liberty”, the reforms never got done and when they did it triggered the Commonwealths end. Even the majority of the Szlachta supported reforms and opposed large magnate families but by then it was too late.
This. And there was opportunity wasted by Augustus II to reduce power of magnates after Lithuanian Civil war, when lesser nobles defeated Sapieha family, but PLC had another problem then-Swedish invasion provoced by Augustus.
 

krieger

Banned
These magnates had no support of noble' masses.

Of course they did not have a majority on their side, but they had some support of lesser nobles - for example envoy from Kalisz, Jan Suchorzewski brought his son to the hall of House of Envoys and threatened to kill the child unless Constitution is abolished. He said - "it's better for him to be killed than live under slavery which this project will bring to this country".
 
Of course they did not have a majority on their side, but they had some support of lesser nobles - for example envoy from Kalisz, Jan Suchorzewski brought his son to the hall of House of Envoys and threatened to kill the child unless Constitution is abolished. He said - "it's better for him to be killed than live under slavery which this project will bring to this country".
"Some support" existed in PL even for absolutism and for vivente rege election of Duke of Conde.
 
Also, surviving Karl Emil seems to be better candidate for Maria Anna Josepha, double Habsburg-Wittelsbach marriage could be seen as waste. I wonder if it is possible for Karl Philipp of Palatinate to marry sister of his stepmother?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Hedwig_of_Hesse-Darmstadt

Um...no. Karl Philipp is a Catholic, which means it's going to require dispensation(s), one to marry a Protestant (if she won't convert) and another to marry a relative within forbidden degrees.
Marie Hedwig is his aunt (canonically speaking) and while the papal offices had no issue dispensing for an uncle-niece marriage, for one between aunt-nephew they were fewer and further between (I know of only three - Philippe III of Burgundy to his second wife, Bonne d'Artois (who had married his uncle); Ferrante II of Naples to his half-aunt, Giovanna of Naples (niece of Fernando the Catholic); and José, Prince of Brasil to his aunt, Maria Benedita of Portugal)). I'm not saying that it won't happen, simply that I would suggest another bride - Liselotte, perhaps?
 
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