Wittelsbach grandchildren of Sigismund Vasa

Anna Katarzyna Konstancja was only daughter of Zygmunt III, who survived to adulthood, but she wasn't very helthly. Death of her mother in 1631 followed by death of father one year later likely had negative impact on her health, so say death of Queen Constance is delayed few years and Anna's health does not deteriorate as IOTL. She still marries Philipp Wilhelm of Neuburg in 1642, but unlike IOTL their marriage lasts longer (say she dies giving birth to her fifth child in 1652). and they have few kids toghether. Thus Elisabeth Amalie of Hesse never became Electress Palatine and her numerous offspring is butterflied away. Instead we have these alternate kids of Philip Wilhelm:

1) Sigismund Wolfgang, b. 1643
2) Charles Philip, b. 1645
3) John Casimir (1647-1652)
4) Constance Magdalene, b. 1650
5) Alexander William, b.1652


Obviously, sons of Wazówna would be seen as obvious successors of their Polish uncle (preventing vivente rege campaign, civil war and pro-French turn of John Casimir). Duke of Neuburg was ally of the Emperor, so Habsburgs should be happy about such sowaiting, (unlike OTL visions of Conde or d'Enghien on the throne of PLC). And semi-dynastic rule would continue in PLC.

Sigismund Wolfgang is going to marry Eleanor of Austria propably (10 years younger, but she is daughter of Emperor, so is worth waiting, especially if that means, that Duchy of Opole could be left in Wittelsbach's hands thanks to that match, and she is grandniece of Queen Marie Louise Gonzaga, so she'll be on favour of such marriage too). I was thinking about John Frederick of Brunswick-Lüneburg for Constance Magdalene, is it likely?


To be continued...
 
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My plans for second generation: Sigismund Wolfgang is main candidate to succeede his uncle on the Polish throne, but he never would. He'd predecease his uncle, dying in 1672. From 1669 he'd be married to Eleanor of Austria, and the two would be made Duke and Duchess of Opole, although their marriage would not have a happy end. Sigismund Wolfgang died in early 1672, In summer of that year Eleanor would give birth to their posthumous second son, Sigismund Ferdinand (first one, John Casimir, was born in 1670), but she'll die from infection just one week later. Thus younger brother of Sigismund Wolfgang, Charles Philip would became next King of Poland in 1673. To keep rights to Opole he'd marry younger sister of Eleanor, Maria Anna Josepha. Older son of Eleanor and Sigismund Wolfgand (John Casimir Wittelsbach, b. 1670) would be successor of his grandfather Philip William as Elector of Palatinate.

Now another question: it is possible, that HRE Leopold would marry his daughter Maria Antonia to the heir of Palatinate (who is also his nephew) instead of Max of Bavaria?
 
Now another question: it is possible, that HRE Leopold would marry his daughter Maria Antonia to the heir of Palatinate (who is also his nephew) instead of Max of Bavaria?

If said heir to the Palatinate is also heir to Poland, probably not. The serious choices (meaning not Carlos II) for Maria Antonia, IIRC, came down to Vittorio Amadeo II of Savoy versus Maximilian II (I think I saw somewhere that Charles V of Lorraine was also considered). Leopold went with Max because he personally liked him. I'm not sure anyone in Europe is going to like the idea of a Wittselsbach empire comprising of Poland-Spain - unless said heir to the Palatinate isn't going to get Poland. I think it can turn very complicated very quickly.
 
If said heir to the Palatinate is also heir to Poland, probably not. The serious choices (meaning not Carlos II) for Maria Antonia, IIRC, came down to Vittorio Amadeo II of Savoy versus Maximilian II (I think I saw somewhere that Charles V of Lorraine was also considered). Leopold went with Max because he personally liked him. I'm not sure anyone in Europe is going to like the idea of a Wittselsbach empire comprising of Poland-Spain - unless said heir to the Palatinate isn't going to get Poland. I think it can turn very complicated very quickly.
Heir of Palatinate is John Casimir Wittelsbach (Born 1670), son of Sigismund Wolfgang Wittelsbach and Eleanor of Austria. King of Poland is Charles Philip Wittelsbach, brother of Sigismund Wolfgang and uncle of John Casimir, so heir of Palatinate is not direct heir of PLC, still, with Wittelsbachs on PLC's throne Leopold would rather try to avoid marriage of Maria Antonia with neither Bavarian nor Palatinate Wittelsbach. House of Wittelsbach would grow dangerously strong.
 
Another, less dangerous option for Maria Antonia would be son of John Frederick of Brunswick-Lüneburg and Constance Magdalene of Neuburg.
 
I posted something about this a while back but I was thinking just a daughter (as Anna Catherine's health didn't seem good and unlikely to have multiple children). Anyways one thing that occurs to me with her having a son is that Brandenburg-Prussia will be pretty terrified of the prospect of him being elected to the Polish throne given their recent conflict with Neuburg over the Julich Cleves Berg inheritance. Indeed the marriage to a Vasa princess was done specifically with an eye to leveraging a connection to Prussia's feudal overlord (King of Poland) against the Elector of Brandenburg.

I'm not sure how successful they would be in opposing Neuburg's Election but I imagine that they'd try. It could be dangerous Prussia is pushed into the French or Swedish camp (although the later is unlikely given the issues in Pomerania) in the event that the Emperor backs Neuburg.
 
Heir of Palatinate is John Casimir Wittelsbach (Born 1670), son of Sigismund Wolfgang Wittelsbach and Eleanor of Austria. King of Poland is Charles Philip Wittelsbach, brother of Sigismund Wolfgang and uncle of John Casimir, so heir of Palatinate is not direct heir of PLC, still, with Wittelsbachs on PLC's throne Leopold would rather try to avoid marriage of Maria Antonia with neither Bavarian nor Palatinate Wittelsbach. House of Wittelsbach would grow dangerously strong.

I've just been looking at the source cited in Eleonore Magdalene's wiki article that I asked Valena about in another thread, and Leopold's marriage to Eleonore was never a sure thing, apparently. She was one of five ladies considered for him when Empress Klaudia died (the OTL dauphine and Mary II among the girls considered). It was only because of her aunt/cousin, Princess Lobkowitz (born a princess of Sulzbach) and her husband's lobbying that the imperial vice-chancellor, Strattmann, even entertained the notion. They pointed out that Cleves was a dangerous place to allow to fall into the Anglo-French alliance (James II's attempts to marry Eleonore being a mere two-three years before), and played on what the French were up to in the Netherlands to persuade Strattmann why this match was a good idea.

Leopold seems to have taken this to heart, since he was considering allowing his sister, Maria Anna Josefa, to marry Karl Emil of Brandenburg (the heir to the other half of the previously united duchies), and it was only because Karl Emil died that he switched to Johann Wilhelm.

Now, most of the people mentioned (JW and Eleonore Magdalene, the dauphine, Mary II and Ulrike Eleonore of Denmark) with a 1643 POD, and it's not even a given that Leopold's older brother or Baltasar Carlos of Spain won't survive, much less OTL Maria Antonia being born. But let's say for the sake of argument that it does play out as such. Maria Anna Josefa of Austria is likely married to Karl Emil of Brandenburg (and if he still dies his fluke death, not sure where she will marry). Eleonore to the Elector Palatine/King of Poland. (Wittelsbach match no. 1).

A match between Maria Antonia and Maximilian II of Bavaria would hardly look like the Wittelsbachs are taking over, since from what I can make out from another source, the dowager electress of Bavaria (Leopold I's aunt) actually tried to prevent Leopold marrying Eleonore, in favour of him marrying her granddaughter (the dauphine). So, there are two branches of one family that can seemingly barely bear to be in the same room as one another, I'm not expecting a Wittelsbach take-over anytime soon.
 
Potential for butterflies is enormous, that is why I'm using butterfly net frequently (mostly to avoid temptation of changing everything to fullfill my expectations) but butterflies in Spain are acceptable.
 
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krieger

Banned
If said heir to the Palatinate is also heir to Poland, probably not. The serious choices (meaning not Carlos II) for Maria Antonia, IIRC, came down to Vittorio Amadeo II of Savoy versus Maximilian II (I think I saw somewhere that Charles V of Lorraine was also considered). Leopold went with Max because he personally liked him. I'm not sure anyone in Europe is going to like the idea of a Wittselsbach empire comprising of Poland-Spain - unless said heir to the Palatinate isn't going to get Poland. I think it can turn very complicated very quickly.

But you're making a mistake by considering Poland a serious country in these Times. Sure it was large, but it faced serious political problems. At first, it lost a half of it's population during the Deluge. At second, House of Envoys was turning country into a non-state, destroying traditional order of monarchia mixta (the balance between Three States of the Commonwealth - King, Senate and the House of Envoys) by grabbing all the power in it's hand while accusing King of having exactly the same plan, and what is worse - not being willing to do anything meaningful with it's power. These problems had a three solutions. First, implemented in OTL - King doesn't want to be a mere puppet of House of Envoys, but hasn't enough strength and/or willpower to be able to overthrow or subjugate envoys. This causes the eternal turmoil between King and the House of Envoys and leads to the further decline of the state. Second - the monarch is willing to lose all his power and to become a mere figurehead in the hands of envoys. This eradicates the turmoils, but we don't know if true republic as large as Commonwealth could realistically succeed. Every large state localised on European continent these times was absolute or semi-absolute - France, Spain, Prussia, Austria or Russia could serve us as an example. Third (and least realistic) - monarch is able to gather all the power in his hands in some way and Poland becomes just like Prussia, Russia or Austria.
 
But you're making a mistake by considering Poland a serious country in these Times. Sure it was large, but it faced serious political problems. At first, it lost a half of it's population during the Deluge. At second, House of Envoys was turning country into a non-state, destroying traditional order of monarchia mixta (the balance between Three States of the Commonwealth - King, Senate and the House of Envoys) by grabbing all the power in it's hand while accusing King of having exactly the same plan, and what is worse - not being willing to do anything meaningful with it's power. These problems had a three solutions. First, implemented in OTL - King doesn't want to be a mere puppet of House of Envoys, but hasn't enough strength and/or willpower to be able to overthrow or subjugate envoys. This causes the eternal turmoil between King and the House of Envoys and leads to the further decline of the state. Second - the monarch is willing to lose all his power and to become a mere figurehead in the hands of envoys. This eradicates the turmoils, but we don't know if true republic as large as Commonwealth could realistically succeed. Every large state localised on European continent these times was absolute or semi-absolute - France, Spain, Prussia, Austria or Russia could serve us as an example. Third (and least realistic) - monarch is able to gather all the power in his hands in some way and Poland becomes just like Prussia, Russia or Austria.
Situation in PLC is better ITTL without Lubomirski's Rebellion. And if it was so meaningless who sits on Polish throne, Habsburgs would not react to plans of VR election of Bourbon Duke like they did IOTL.
 
I've made some changes in OP. Anna Catherine Constance would live longer, but not long enough to prevent second marriage of her husband, also, in Spain Felipe Prospero lives, changing question of Spanish succession.
 

krieger

Banned
Situation in PLC is better ITTL without Lubomirski's Rebellion. And if it was so meaningless who sits on Polish throne, Habsburgs would not react to plans of VR election of Bourbon Duke like they did IOTL.
PLC's strength was overrated. Everyone based their assumptions on 1st half of XVIIth century. It took half an age for foreign powers to realize that PLC isn't as strong as it seemed.
 
PLC's strength was overrated. Everyone based their assumptions on 1st half of XVIIth century. It took half an age for foreign powers to realize that PLC isn't as strong as it seemed.
But in this case it does matter more what Habsburgs think, not how real situation looks like.
Also, Lubomirski's rebellion, supported by Vienna, happened just after Deluge, so Habsburgs had good occassion to see PLC's weakness.
 

krieger

Banned
But in this case it does matter more what Habsburgs think, not how real situation looks like.
Also, Lubomirski's rebellion, supported by Vienna, happened just after Deluge, so Habsburgs had good occassion to see PLC's weakness.

They thought that Lubomirski winning was only a effect of incompetence of John Casimir and his fault. And in this case, Leopold I Habsburg knowing what PLC is wouldn't hesitate to marry heiress of Spain to someone close to Polish throne, because without a support of Habsburgs Wittelsbachs could lose it.
 
So now situation looks like this:
-Philipp Wilhelm has kids with his Vasa wife, but after her death (a bit delayed) he still marries Elisabeth of Hesse.
-Felipe Prospero lives, so marriage of Maria Antonia is not that important.
-Sigismund Wolfgang (1643-1688) married Eleanor of Austria in 1669, is made Duke of Opole and is elected to the throne of PLC (as Zygmunt IV) in 1673 and had following children:
1) Zygmunt Kazimierz (born 1670) King of Poland (as Zygmunt V) from 1688
2) Anna Eleonora (born 1672) m. Max Emmanuel of Bavaria?
3) Magdalena Karolina (born 1675)
4) Katarzyna Aleksandra (born and died 1678)

Philip Wilhelm is succeeded as Elector of Palatinate by his second son, Palatinate and PLC-Silesian lines are split.
 

krieger

Banned
So now situation looks like this:
-Philipp Wilhelm has kids with his Vasa wife, but after her death (a bit delayed) he still marries Elisabeth of Hesse.
-Felipe Prospero lives, so marriage of Maria Antonia is not that important.
-Sigismund Wolfgang (1643-1688) married Eleanor of Austria in 1669, is made Duke of Opole and is elected to the throne of PLC (as Zygmunt IV) in 1673 and had following children:
1) Zygmunt Kazimierz (born 1670) King of Poland (as Zygmunt V) from 1688
2) Anna Eleonora (born 1672) m. Max Emmanuel of Bavaria?
3) Magdalena Karolina (born 1675)
4) Katarzyna Aleksandra (born and died 1678)

Philip Wilhelm is succeeded as Elector of Palatinate by his second son, Palatinate and PLC-Silesian lines are split.

And what exactly is Zygmunt IV going to do during his reign? Loss of Kamieniec is something, which would never happen in ATL - Doroszenko would be finished before Turks could send some serious help to him (at least Sobieski would be a loyal supporter of a throne instead of malkontent) so is he going to send any help to Vienna besieged by Turks? And how do you imagine Sigismund IV personality-wise? Is like his grandfather, uncle John Casimir, uncle Władysław IV or his father? Or is he a mixture between them? And I would suggest Magdalena Karolina marrying Karl Philipp, one of younger sons of Great Elector.
 
And I would suggest Magdalena Karolina marrying Karl Philipp, one of younger sons of Great Elector.

An interesting idea, but I would ask "why?". The elector's son was married to Radziwillowna in order to secure her estates (whether for the influence it would give him in an election or the money IDK), after her first husband (Ludwig) died, she was supposed to marry Philipp Wilhelm of Brandenburg, but then her father-in-law died and Friedrich I was like "fuck that shit" and sent her off to the Palatinate. Admittedly though, a Polish princess could symbolize a "making up" of differences over the Cleves inheritance (they'd been trying this song-and-dance since the 1620s when Philipp Wilhelm of Neuburg was betorthed to Luise of Brandenburg (OTL duchess of Courland)).
 

krieger

Banned
An interesting idea, but I would ask "why?". The elector's son was married to Radziwillowna in order to secure her estates (whether for the influence it would give him in an election or the money IDK), after her first husband (Ludwig) died, she was supposed to marry Philipp Wilhelm of Brandenburg, but then her father-in-law died and Friedrich I was like "fuck that shit" and sent her off to the Palatinate. Admittedly though, a Polish princess could symbolize a "making up" of differences over the Cleves inheritance (they'd been trying this song-and-dance since the 1620s when Philipp Wilhelm of Neuburg was betorthed to Luise of Brandenburg (OTL duchess of Courland)).

Why? Wittelsbachs are kings of Poland ITTL, so good relationship with Brandenburg would be surely important for them. In addition, Treaty of Welawa didn't abolish every feudal tie between Prussia and Poland (for example estates of Prussia were still obligated to swear allegiance to Polish king and the last Polish king to whom Prussian estates swore allegiance was Augustus II, the subjects of Prussian duke still had a right to ask Polish king for help when the decisions of the duke were violating their privileges), so from the legal POV Polish king (who is ITTL Sigismund IV Wittelsbach) is still feudal overlord of Prussia, so marriage to his daughter wouldn't be a bad idea for a son of Great Elector.
 
Why? Wittelsbachs are kings of Poland ITTL, so good relationship with Brandenburg would be surely important for them. In addition, Treaty of Welawa didn't abolish every feudal tie between Prussia and Poland (for example estates of Prussia were still obligated to swear allegiance to Polish king and the last Polish king to whom Prussian estates swore allegiance was Augustus II, the subjects of Prussian duke still had a right to ask Polish king for help when the decisions of the duke were violating their privileges), so from the legal POV Polish king (who is ITTL Sigismund IV Wittelsbach) is still feudal overlord of Prussia, so marriage to his daughter wouldn't be a bad idea for a son of Great Elector.

Makes sense. But I wonder if the king of Poland's sister - perhaps Kostanze Magdalene - might be a better fit for the Great Elector's eldest son. Or Sigmund IV's youngest daughter for a gender-flipped Luise Dorothea of Prussia (b.1680)?
 
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