WIF: France wins Italian Wars

Thanks to the early development of the national infantry and introduction of the shot and pike formations (and everything else including a competent leadership) France is winning the Italian Wars without a major Hapsburg opposition (distraction by the Ottomans, Reformation in Germany, early Dutch rebellion, bankruptcy of Fughers, early death of Gonsalvo de Cordoba, whatever).

There are 3 possible scenarios:

1. Conquest of Naples by Charles VIII holds (with or without Sicily).

2. Louis XII conquers and hold Naples (but not Sicily held by Spain) and Milan.

3. Francis I conquers and holds Milan.

What would be the long-term consequences for France, Italy and Europe in general?
 
Off the top of my head the Hapsburgs try
then to do something- ANYTHING- to cut
France down to size & keep it from virtually
ruling Europe(for a France victorious in Italy
would have been a France much more
powerful than it was @ this time ITTL).
 
Off the top of my head the Hapsburgs try
then to do something- ANYTHING- to cut
France down to size & keep it from virtually
ruling Europe(for a France victorious in Italy
would have been a France much more
powerful than it was @ this time ITTL).

That's true but it will be opposite to OTL when France was trying to so that to the Hapsburgs. ;)

However, the strengths would be more evenly matched: France having some Italian resources while Hapsburgs having the Netherlands. Not that I'm sure how much power would add possession of Naples or Milan and, at least Naples, would not add anything substantial to the ability to interfere into the HRE affairs.

Anyway, the premise was French military superiority, which was not the case in OTL but which could be achieved without participation of ASBs.
 
If Francis is not defeated at Pavia then, among other consequences he is not taken prisoner, so his sons are not taken as hostages, health of Dauphin Francis not deterioriate like IOTL. Also Bona would not resign from her marriage plans (double Jagiellon-Valois match, Isabella with Francis, Sigismund Augustus with Margaret, Isabella's Sforza blood would further strenghten Valois rights to Milan). Louis of Hungary is still retard and Habsburg pawn, his fate would not be significantly different from OTL, but Janos Zapolya should have bigger chances against Ferdinand, Bona would also urge Sigismund to claim Czech throne, but like usually, his action would be too slow. Meanwhile Henry VIII would be more pro-Habsburg, fearing growth of French power.
 
If Francis is not defeated at Pavia then, among other consequences he is not taken prisoner, so his sons are not taken as hostages, health of Dauphin Francis not deterioriate like IOTL. Also Bona would not resign from her marriage plans (double Jagiellon-Valois match, Isabella with Francis, Sigismund Augustus with Margaret, Isabella's Sforza blood would further strenghten Valois rights to Milan). Louis of Hungary is still retard and Habsburg pawn, his fate would not be significantly different from OTL, but Janos Zapolya should have bigger chances against Ferdinand, Bona would also urge Sigismund to claim Czech throne, but like usually, his action would be too slow. Meanwhile Henry VIII would be more pro-Habsburg, fearing growth of French power.
Does this butterfly away the Franco-Turkish Alliance? Or would the French still find some use in allying with the Turks to counter the Habsburgs?
 
If Francis is not defeated at Pavia then, among other consequences he is not taken prisoner, so his sons are not taken as hostages, health of Dauphin Francis not deterioriate like IOTL. Also Bona would not resign from her marriage plans (double Jagiellon-Valois match, Isabella with Francis, Sigismund Augustus with Margaret, Isabella's Sforza blood would further strenghten Valois rights to Milan). Louis of Hungary is still retard and Habsburg pawn, his fate would not be significantly different from OTL, but Janos Zapolya should have bigger chances against Ferdinand, Bona would also urge Sigismund to claim Czech throne, but like usually, his action would be too slow. Meanwhile Henry VIII would be more pro-Habsburg, fearing growth of French power.


Consequences you listed are interesting but I was thinking mostly about those for the Western Europe. The pre-requisite of the whole schema is the early and very serious French military advantage over its Spanish/Hapsburg competitors, which may have additional implications. In OTL by the beginning of the Italian Wars France had the best artillery and arguably the best heavy cavalry (gendarmes). However, in general, its military system was getting obsolete because little had been done to create a "modern" national infantry: France was relying upon the Swiss mercenaries with the occasional additions of the German landsknechts or Italian infantry.

Was it realistic to France of the early XVI to became the greatest European military power? The first French regular infantry unit, Picardy regiment, had been created in 1479 and later Henry II created 5 or 6 more infantry regiments ("old regiments") so it is not unrealistic to assume that, rather than wasting gold on the foreign mercenaries the governments of Charles VII, Louis XI and Charles VIII are spending them on creation of the French infantry units and, based upon the experience of both the 100YW and the Burgundian Wars, are developing them as the pike and shot formations. Taking into an account that the social system of France did not change dramatically between the Italian Wars and the reign of Louis XIV, I don't see an objective "social" impossibility for such a development (at the time of Louis XIII NOT creating strong national army was for a while an explicit policy of Richelieu until byproduct of this policy were all over his face forcing to change the course). France had a greater population than Spain, approximately 16M vs. 8.5M, and while the HRE also had approximately 16M even Charles V had a limited control over its human and economic resources. AFAIK, by that time France also was MUCH better off economically that the Hapsburg states, which means that it could pay its troops much more regularly than the Hapsburgs did. Plus, of course, with at least marginally competent rulers (which admittedly was not quite the case during the period between the death of Louis XI and reign of Henry IV :confused:) and Reformation in Germany, there always was a possibility to make life of any Hapsburg emperor at least slightly "more interesting".

Second component is a leadership. In OTL during most of the Italian Wars the French had been "blessed" with the incompetent generals. In its "traditional" armies this was if not inevitable than highly likely because everything was based upon the traditional structures and there is no doubt that most of these commanders had been personally brave knights of a high birth. But, while their Spanish, Italian and German counterparts also were not exactly born in the gutters (of course, Georg von Frundsberg was not an aristocrat), they had to deal with much more modern armies and to adopt to a new style of a warfare. Was this possible for the French? Why not? Being an aristocrat does not automatically make person a bad general.

Now, by the end of the reign of Louis XII French possessions in Italy can't be contested with a realistic chance for success. What's next?

1. Newly crowned Francis I does not have a basis of his OTL demagoguery about losses in Italy (seems to be one of his favorite subjects as a heir to the throne) but most probably still has an itch for a military glory. The most obvious are of application (absent Italy) would be "Burgundian Inheritance", which means earlier French-Hapsburg Wars on the Western and Northern borders of France and probably some action on the French-Spanish border. With the French hold on Naples and Milan, it is difficult if not impossible to bring the Spanish troops to the Netherlands or French Comte so on these fronts Charles would have only the Dutch and German forces. Short-term outcome is anybody's guess but long-term is probably along the OTL lines in the terms of the territorial grabs.

2. Spain is pretty much cut from Germany. If/when Charles V decides to partition his empire it is not quite clear how the Spanish Netherlands would work out unless Spain is in a prolonged peace with France. Would they go to the Austrian branch and if yes what would be the consequences?

3. OTOH, France is "blessed"/"saddled" with the territories in Italy and a need to govern them. For how long this schema would keep working?
 
Perhaps Francis or Francis Junior/Henry II could end up conquering the Spanish Netherlands, then Naples could be pawned off to a younger son (e.g. Charles) and the Duchy of Milan could become the French equivalent of either the Duchy of Cornwall or the Duchy of York?
 
So as response to Habsburg encirclement of France there could be Valois encirclement of HRE, with Valois Milan in the south, pro-French Zapolya and possible Valois secundogeniture in PLC (with potential second son of Dauphin and Isabella Jagiellon on the throne) in the east. Where would Habsburg look for allies?
 
So as response to Habsburg encirclement of France there could be Valois encirclement of HRE, with Valois Milan in the south, pro-French Zapolya and possible Valois secundogeniture in PLC (with potential second son of Dauphin and Isabella Jagiellon on the throne) in the east. Where would Habsburg look for allies?
England and Russia. Maybe Sweden.
 
Perhaps Francis or Francis Junior/Henry II could end up conquering the Spanish Netherlands, then Naples could be pawned off to a younger son (e.g. Charles) and the Duchy of Milan could become the French equivalent of either the Duchy of Cornwall or the Duchy of York?

I'm not quite sure up to which degree the Spanish troops that won at Saint-Quentin and Gravelines were really from Spain. However, in both cases Count Egmont was either one of the commanders or the commander and, judging by the later complaints of the local nobility about being financially ruined on the royal service, the troops from the Netherlands probably also played a serious role. Anyway, the troops could be recruited in Germany as well and it is not likely that the Hapsburgs (whatever branch) would completely abandon their cash cow.

OTOH, IMO, it would be quite difficult for a realistic army of the XVI century to conquer the whole Netherlands. The warfare of that period had been putting a great stress on taking the geographic points and there were plenty of well fortified places in the Netherlands so I'd think that in the best case scenario the whole thing would end up with something close to the OTL French-Belgian border, maybe a little bit more into the French favor: sieges were time and resource consuming and if (in the case of Spanish Netherlands) most of the French forces are busy taking fortresses in the Netherlands, then Southern border of France is vulnerable to the Spanish attack which would require to send some of the troops engaged on the North to the South, etc.

BTW, can you please explain what's so special about Cornwall or York?
 
England and Russia. Maybe Sweden.

In the XVI - early XVII centuries "Russia" (or rather Tsardom of Moscow) had a considerable amount of its own troubles and hardly could be an useful ally. Sweden became independent in 1523 but until the early XVII hardly was a great military power and also had its own problems (like Livonian war and wars with the PLC). England was, during the reign of Mary Tudor, Spanish ally but it was not a major military power.
 
I know this is tangent to the OP's three requested scenarios, but...
Edward VI Tudor surviving his illness in 1553 and sidelining Mary and the Catholics could, in theory, lead to England staying neutral in the Italian War of 1551-59, which could increase French fortunes.
If we can also butterfly away Henri II's chance death in a jousting accident, we can diminish the scope of, or perhaps even prevent, the French Wars of Religion, giving France some precious time to strengthen itself in the late XVIth century.
 
France and Ottomans are both anti-Habsburg, so I don't see alliance butterflied away.

But if the French possession of Milan and Naples is solidified during the reign of Louis XII then strictly speaking the Hapsburgs may not even get involved. Charles V was not even a king of Spain by the time of Louis's death and with Max the relations were not uniformly bad: at some point French even had been allied with him. So if situation in Italy looks hopeless, Charles may concentrate on some other "problem areas" (for example, doing something about the Ottomans or the German Protestants) in which case the conflict is more or less absent unless France wants Burgundian Inheritance.
 
So as response to Habsburg encirclement of France there could be Valois encirclement of HRE, with Valois Milan in the south, pro-French Zapolya and possible Valois secundogeniture in PLC (with potential second son of Dauphin and Isabella Jagiellon on the throne) in the east. Where would Habsburg look for allies?

HRE encirclement? Hapsburgs still hold Spain, Netherlands and French Comte. The main difference is that there is an "opening" in Italy but it is more or less blocked by the Hapsburg hereditary lands (Tirol, Austria). Hungary and PLC are far away and, anyway, Zapolya is, as I understand, a byproduct of the Ottoman conquest of Hungary and even with the Ottoman protection could not held against Ferdinand.
 
In the XVI - early XVII centuries "Russia" (or rather Tsardom of Moscow) had a considerable amount of its own troubles and hardly could be an useful ally. Sweden became independent in 1523 but until the early XVII hardly was a great military power and also had its own problems (like Livonian war and wars with the PLC). England was, during the reign of Mary Tudor, Spanish ally but it was not a major military power.
Good point.
 
BTW, can you please explain what's so special about Cornwall or York?

In England, the title of Duke of Cornwall goes to the reigning monarch's firstborn son, along with the title of Prince of Wales and it's Scottish equivalent, the Duke of Rothesay, while the title of Duke of York typically goes to the second born son.
 
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