WI: Vladimir the Great converts to Karaite Judaism

In the 980s, Vladimir of Rus is recorded as having summoned the scholars of different Abrahamic faiths to explain their beliefs to him, then sending envoys of his own to lands where said faiths were predominant, in pursuit of a religion better for his people's lives and for his realm's political legitimacy. He spoke with 'the Jews', but declined further interest in the faith, citing the fall of Jerusalem as reason to believe that their god had abandoned them. It's most likely and believed that these nonspecific Jews were from the Khazar culture, itself having by the decision of its own king Bulan converted to Rabbinical Judaism, which asserts the authority of the Talmud.

The 10th century is identified as the peak of Karaite Judaism, a sect that disputes the near-divine status of the Talmud and places emphasis on individual study and interpretation of the written Torah. The 'Karaites' of this time were thriving in the Middle East between Egypt and especially Abbasid Iraq where they took positions as public servants and tax collectors, build their own schools, and ran their communities separate from the Rabbinical Jewish sect that predominates to this day. Fierce debates and polemics between Rabbinical and Karaite scholars escalated into different religious and even cultural identities: the Karaites described by Maimonides as heretics eventually emphasized their differences to loosen anti-Jewish restrictions by the Russian Empire in Crimea, and were even overlooked by Nazi occupiers in the 1940s, but have eventually become tolerated and counted as Jews in the State of Israel today.

What if in Vladimir's time, he or his scholars were impressed by Karaite scholars in/from Iraq or Constantinople, enticed by the prospect of writing and promoting a Torah interpretation politically favorable to the Rurikids, and convinced enough of their wise men to settle in and preach across the Rus? Will a south- and east-oriented Russian state secure Crimea from the Byzantines sooner than later? Likewise, would better relations with the Abbasid Caliphate and parts of the Muslim world make Mongol domination a shorter period of Russian history? Would this Slavic-speaking Jewish state, jealously asserting its Vladimir-sanctioned sect, eventually prevail in numbers and in image as "the" Judaism ITTL?
 
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Gave thought to pinging you, Ras Walle, and other known Jewish posters, but it felt pretentious. This premise may butterfly OTL's Crimean Karaite Jews, and gives the Jews of Francia, yet to migrate to the Rhine and become the Ashkenazim, much to think about. The history and presence of the Crimean Jews, both Karaite and Rabbinical, is very unclear at this point in history, but the POD seems to pre-empt both.

- The notion of proselytism is a serious cherry to pop. If the teachings of a sect treated as morons by Maimonides manages to convince millions of Gentiles to give up their old gods, circumcise, and keep the Sabbath, would it shake the faith of the Jews of Europe and pull them toward the Karaite Rus, give them reason to cement a symbiotic relationship with their Catholic rulers, or open the door to proselytism (to whom? Perhaps the Norse?) unthinkable since the Hasmoneans?
- The Crusades IOTL were only directed toward Muslim lands ostensibly to clear the path for Christian pilgrims, and toward pagans in Lithuania. Could a German state ITTL be distracted enough, or convince the Pope to sanction a war against a never-before-seen Christ-denying state, and would it pull away enough resources to endanger the Reconquista?
- With a patent on their own national Judaism, could the Rus or its wise men become haughty enough to pick up from the Book of Malachi and endorse the construction of a Third Temple with animal sacrifices somewhere in Russia/Ukraine?
 
- The Crusades IOTL were only directed toward Muslim lands ostensibly to clear the path for Christian pilgrims, and toward pagans in Lithuania. Could a German state ITTL be distracted enough, or convince the Pope to sanction a war against a never-before-seen Christ-denying state, and would it pull away enough resources to endanger the Reconquista?

Are there even going to be crusades as such OTL feels like a question here..

But if there are - the Teutonic Knights fought against the Russians at least some of the time OTL. I'm not sure its any war in the east against the Rus is necessarily being fought by or on behalf of a German state (as opposed to say, Poland and Hungary) TTL - again, massive changes to the world here.
 
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Are there even going to be crusades as such OTL feels like a question here..

But if there are - the Teutonic Knights fought against the Russians at least some of the time OTL. I'm not sure its any war in the east against the Rus is necessarily being fought by or on behalf of a German state (as opposed to say, Poland and Hungary) TTL - again, massive changes to the world here.
Not much changes. for Poland-Lithuania and the Livonian order Orthodox Christianity was about as heretical as being Muslim. What really changes is that Russia cannot claim to be the defender of Orthodox Christianity and would probably be less interested in reforming the Eastern Roman Empire.
 
Not much changes. for Poland-Lithuania and the Livonian order Orthodox Christianity was about as heretical as being Muslim. What really changes is that Russia cannot claim to be the defender of Orthodox Christianity and would probably be less interested in reforming the Eastern Roman Empire.
Nope. Early Piasts often intermarried with Rurikids. Eastern Schism happened much later than Vladimir's conversion and has not affected whole Christendom immediately.
 
Nope. Early Piasts often intermarried with Rurikids. Eastern Schism happened much later than Vladimir's conversion and has not affected whole Christendom immediately.
Yes but the first years of the Kievan Rus aren't changed much as nobody has interests in the land (cold, underdeveloped...) and the Mongols would still dominate the region a little bit after
 
Definitely intriguing to have a large, Jewish ruled state during the religious fervor of the Middle Ages, much less one that's located in the lands that in OTL allowed Orthodoxy to survive as a major denomination even after the fall of Constantinople. A few thoughts:

-I definitely agree with proselytism becoming a big thing in Judaism in TTL. Presumably the Rurikids of TTL will act as any medieval noble would and look to expand their influence wherever they go, including spreading their religion to make the masses easier to manager.
-With a relatively non-isolated Jewish regional power, various Jewish populations migrate to Russia to avoid various pogroms in the Catholic/Orthodox/Muslim areas of the world. And the Rurikids would no doubt encourage this, seeing an opportunity to get many learned populations living in their lands.
-How Jewish Kievan Rus reacts to any future crusades aimed at retaking Jerusalem is anyone's guess. It would largely depend imo on how future Jewish Rurikids handle relations with their neighbors in Poland and the Byzantine Empire.
 
Gave thought to pinging you, Ras Walle, and other known Jewish posters, but it felt pretentious. This premise may butterfly OTL's Crimean Karaite Jews, and gives the Jews of Francia, yet to migrate to the Rhine and become the Ashkenazim, much to think about. The history and presence of the Crimean Jews, both Karaite and Rabbinical, is very unclear at this point in history, but the POD seems to pre-empt both.

- The notion of proselytism is a serious cherry to pop. If the teachings of a sect treated as morons by Maimonides manages to convince millions of Gentiles to give up their old gods, circumcise, and keep the Sabbath, would it shake the faith of the Jews of Europe and pull them toward the Karaite Rus, give them reason to cement a symbiotic relationship with their Catholic rulers, or open the door to proselytism (to whom? Perhaps the Norse?) unthinkable since the Hasmoneans?
- The Crusades IOTL were only directed toward Muslim lands ostensibly to clear the path for Christian pilgrims, and toward pagans in Lithuania. Could a German state ITTL be distracted enough, or convince the Pope to sanction a war against a never-before-seen Christ-denying state, and would it pull away enough resources to endanger the Reconquista?
- With a patent on their own national Judaism, could the Rus or its wise men become haughty enough to pick up from the Book of Malachi and endorse the construction of a Third Temple with animal sacrifices somewhere in Russia/Ukraine?

Okay so we gotta set two things down: The idea that the Karaite Jews are a separate, non-Jewish ethnicity is a fabrication set up by a few Crimean Karaite leaders in the 1700s. Karaite Jews in Egypt and other parts of the world never stopped considering themselves Jewish. A contact I have in that community says that the Turkic notion is kinda dying out in Crimea and that their practices are pretty standard for Karaite Judaism. In Poland however they're still pretty wackadoodle.

It might be something like the Khazars where the royalty and nobility convert and the peasantry is religiously fractured between Rabbanite Jews, Muslims, Christians, and Pagans. That being said, I have no doubt the surrounding powers would allow such a strange place to survive. If there isn't a crusade somehow, they'll at least try for one.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the ban against conversions was well in place by now. If the Karaites really managed to convert hundreds of thousands, wouldn't they be at least a bit bigger than they are now? As the power balance shifts towards the Rabbanites, either the dynasty would convert to Rabbanism or pack the court functionaries with Rabbanites while they stay Karaite. Either that or they diverge into something resembling the Crimean Karaism promoted by certain hakhamim (who also happened to end up as goddamn crazy people). I think they would pull more from Folk Orthodoxy and Islam than the pseudo-turkic neopaganism promoted by said crazy people.

(I have a Jewish Rus in CKIII, but we're Rabbanite)
 
Nope. Early Piasts often intermarried with Rurikids. Eastern Schism happened much later than Vladimir's conversion and has not affected whole Christendom immediately.

Tho if Vladimir would try to enforce pork ban as part of Judaism, it'd cause massive economic setback - Khazars lived in steppe region, when pork isn't as valuable source of meat, and in general Jewish communities in Eastern Europe weren't farmers and farming was the basis of economy in pre-industrial times, meaning that it'd be impossible to follow their example for majority of population of Rus', either Vladimir would rescind pork ban creating pork-eating sect of Judaism or his subjects would overthrow him, probably reverting to paganism and placing another Rurikid on the throne or some non-Rurikid dynasty or just submit to nearest ruler willing to take Rus'.
 
Tho if Vladimir would try to enforce pork ban as part of Judaism, it'd cause massive economic setback - Khazars lived in steppe region, when pork isn't as valuable source of meat, and in general Jewish communities in Eastern Europe weren't farmers and farming was the basis of economy in pre-industrial times, meaning that it'd be impossible to follow their example for majority of population of Rus', either Vladimir would rescind pork ban creating pork-eating sect of Judaism or his subjects would overthrow him, probably reverting to paganism and placing another Rurikid on the throne or some non-Rurikid dynasty or just submit to nearest ruler willing to take Rus'.

Not to mention milk with meat. Karaites don't exactly follow it the way we do, but they do things like-say, a cheeseburger made with goats milk and a beef patty. I imagine that would still be a pain in the ass for non-Jews to willingly adopt.
 
Tho if Vladimir would try to enforce pork ban as part of Judaism, it'd cause massive economic setback - Khazars lived in steppe region, when pork isn't as valuable source of meat, and in general Jewish communities in Eastern Europe weren't farmers and farming was the basis of economy in pre-industrial times, meaning that it'd be impossible to follow their example for majority of population of Rus', either Vladimir would rescind pork ban creating pork-eating sect of Judaism or his subjects would overthrow him, probably reverting to paganism and placing another Rurikid on the throne or some non-Rurikid dynasty or just submit to nearest ruler willing to take Rus'.
And if somehow he imposed Judaism successfully with its dietary laws then Rus' would have lower population density than nearby Christian countries.
 
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the ban against conversions was well in place by now. If the Karaites really managed to convert hundreds of thousands, wouldn't they be at least a bit bigger than they are now? As the power balance shifts towards the Rabbanites, either the dynasty would convert to Rabbanism or pack the court functionaries with Rabbanites while they stay Karaite. Either that or they diverge into something resembling the Crimean Karaism promoted by certain hakhamim (who also happened to end up as goddamn crazy people). I think they would pull more from Folk Orthodoxy and Islam than the pseudo-turkic neopaganism promoted by said crazy people.

(I have a Jewish Rus in CKIII, but we're Rabbanite)
I'm certainly not a scholar but from what i gathered is that the Khazars pretty much disregarded/sidestepped the whole conversion ban thing. Their nobility was not from the Holy Lands, after all. The main reason there wasnt general population conversion is likely also majorly influenced by the fact that the Khazars were semi-nomadic people ruling over many nomadic peoples seperated by vast steppes. They certainly were central enough to gather large armies and also to build impressive buildings (Including a fortress of sorts to keep out raiders from the East), and a Rurikid state which settles down might have a much better hand at spreading the religion to the common people.

Also if we go by the example of the Khazars, the Jewish Rus might have a pretty strong hand in itself if it can stay as a militarily potent force. The Khazars regularly allied with the Byzantines against the Caliphate (so much so that there was Emperor Leo V "the Khazar", son of a Byzantine Emperor and Khazar princess) and dominated their region for about 4 centuries until the arrival of the Rus from the North. A Rus strong enough to intimidate it's immedeate neighbours but not strong enough to be an existantial threat might have a real shot at staying coherent for some centuries until the Crusading Era reaches it's Zenith (if it even starts) but i cant say much about that.
 
Nope. Early Piasts often intermarried with Rurikids. Eastern Schism happened much later than Vladimir's conversion and has not affected whole Christendom immediately.
Not only the Piasts. Yaroslav the Wise was married to Ingegerd Olofsdotter of Sweden, his daughters were queens of Hungary, Norway and France. Emperor Henry IV was married to Eupraxia of Kiev.
 
What’s the geography we’re talking about here? Forest? Taiga? All of the above?
So-called “Kievan Rus” had been stretching from the Baltic coast to the lower Dnieper so no “taiga”, just the normal central European mixture of the forests and open spaces with the steppes on the Southern border. “Vladimir-Suzdal Rus” had been in the Central-Eastern part of the modern European Russia with the eastern border on upper Volga. More forests but no taiga or anything exotic.
 
And if somehow he imposed Judaism successfully with its dietary laws then Rus' would have lower population density than nearby Christian countries.
AFAIK, the whole premise is just a legend from a chronicle written centuries after the events and not too reliable, to put it mildly. Tradition ascribed its compilation to the monk Nestor who lived in the XI-XII century, but his name, as related to the chronicle, was the first time mentioned only in the XVI century .

What we do know is that by the time of Vladimir there was a very strong Orthodox Christian faction in Kiev, including the very top level. The Khazars (and so the whole Judaism story from the legend) were not just the traditional enemies but the beaten enemies (both by the Arabs and by Svyatoslav) so adoption of their official religion was not providing any political benefits. The Orthodox-Catholic split was was a matter of the future (XI century) so this part of a legend is also most probably BS but the “Byzantine model”, with which there was a close familiarity (Vladimir’s grandmother, Olga, travelled with her retinue to Constantinople and was baptized there), was very attractive both by supremacy of a secular power and by the whole entourage elevating the ruler above his subjects. Plus, there still were strong trade relations and, as a cookie, a chance to elevate Vladimir’s own prestige by marrying to a member of the Byzantine imperial family.

What is also fishy in the chronicle story is that alleged desire to be baptized was, rather illogically, followed by the invasion of the Byzantine territory in the Crimea and capture of Chersonesus. With possession of this “argument” he was in a position strong enough to request marriage to Princess Anna and baptism was an obvious pre-requisite.

There was a humorous poem of the XIX century in which author formally followed the chronicle.
Vladimir to the citizens of Chersonesus: “I came and beg to let me in. Otherwise I’ll teach you humility and level your city to the ground: I want to get baptized!”
Citizens of Chersonesus: “Unmitigated disaster came to the Christians: Vladimir wants to get baptized… He will stay there for years looting the area!” After which they are opening the gates.
Vladimir, after entering Chersonesus, to the Emperors Basil and Constantine: “I’m humbly asking for the hand of your sister. Otherwise I’ll attack you with my army. So lets became relatives without a violence.”, etc. 😉
 
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Definitely intriguing to have a large, Jewish ruled state during the religious fervor of the Middle Ages,

How exactly the Rurikid rulers would be able to trace their ancestry to the initial Jewish tribes? Probability of doing the same for their subjects would be zero. Khazars had the same problem and ended up with a small ruling class having religion different from the rest of the population, which did not add stability to their rule.
 
So-called “Kievan Rus” had been stretching from the Baltic coast to the lower Dnieper so no “taiga”, just the normal central European mixture of the forests and open spaces with the steppes on the Southern border. “Vladimir-Suzdal Rus” had been in the Central-Eastern part of the modern European Russia with the eastern border on upper Volga. More forests but no taiga or anything exotic.

Yeah that environment better suits pigs. If there was more steppe it could have been feasible, since there'd be more room for cows and sheep
 
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