WI: Vichy France an Axis belligerant and no Free French

Eurofed

Banned
Inspired by this interesting thread. Let's assume that ITTL, the Free French don't exist because De Gaulle takes a German bullet in May 17, 1940. Let's also assume that Vichy France ends up declaring war to Britain and the USSR in 1940-41, and being a cobelligerant member of the Axis at the very least as eager and active as Hungary and Romania, if not quite possibly as Fascist Italy. I leave it up to you the definition of this second PoD. I tentatively would suggest a combination of a stronger French reaction to Mers-el-Kabir, Hitler making more of a concerned effort to gain the full cooperation of Vichy France in the Mediterranean in late 1940, instead of his futile efforts with Franco, and the hardcore philo-Nazi fascists getting more of an early upper hand within the Vichy regime. The French Resistance ends up being a major force once the Allies set up foot on French mainland, just as it happened to Italian Resistance, but no earlier. How would this influence the course of WWII and the post-war world ?
 
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Well, France would be in basically the same boat as Italy, I imagine. Arguably worse because as you describe things, France would have been perceived as an outright turncoat against the western alliance as opposed to Italy which began the war as an axis nation and turned coat the "good" way.

A lot would also depend on whether the Vichy regime was deposed as was Mussolini's government upon an allied invasion of France. In Italy's case, the fact that the King immediately lent his support to the new government immediately legitimized it as the only real government of Italy, even though the German rescue of Mussolini allowed them to set up a puppet regime in the north. Something very similar would have to happen in France.

Also, as opposed to Hungary and Romania (whose initial allegiance to the Axis could be interpreted as the almost necessary response or minor powers to being in the shadow of German power, France was a major power, and such a switch of allegiance could have a major impact on the overal balance of power and direction of the war. In this TL, if Germany had gained an actual advantage (such as if Vichy permitted full German access to their north and west african bases and/or Madagascar to support the submarine campaign, the French joined the Axis campaign against the British in the Med and North Africa, or if initial French resistance to Anglo-American nvasions of north african and metropolitan France was stiff), there would be few among the allies willing to cut France any slack. That's not even considering the Soviet reaction if French forces joined in Operation Barbarossa.
 
Ultimately I don't think it will change much who wins, but it might change how. Why? Division of Labor. With France on board Germany can focus it's attention more on Russia.

I don't see the war in the Pacific changing much at all, but I can see the one in Europe slowing down. Might be that France or Germany instead of Japan that first gets nuked.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Well, France would be in basically the same boat as Italy, I imagine. Arguably worse because as you describe things, France would have been perceived as an outright turncoat against the western alliance as opposed to Italy which began the war as an axis nation and turned coat the "good" way.

True, but in the end, it's not like the Allies could have treated Italy much worse than they did IOTL, and that standard would apply to France. Of course, no permaseat in the UN, no occupation zone in Germany, no separate status for Saar, the same military limitations as for Germany and Italy (i.e. no nuclear France). OTOH, political and military European integration alongisde the econimic one would most likely succeed in the 1950s, if the French are in the same boat as the Germans and the Italians.

A lot would also depend on whether the Vichy regime was deposed as was Mussolini's government upon an allied invasion of France. In Italy's case, the fact that the King immediately lent his support to the new government immediately legitimized it as the only real government of Italy, even though the German rescue of Mussolini allowed them to set up a puppet regime in the north. Something very similar would have to happen in France.

Very true, but just like the less radical fascist and philo-Nazi top adies of Mussolini could backstab him when the military situation went down the tube, so the equivalent in the Vichy regime could easily do the same.

Also, as opposed to Hungary and Romania (whose initial allegiance to the Axis could be interpreted as the almost necessary response or minor powers to being in the shadow of German power, France was a major power, and such a switch of allegiance could have a major impact on the overal balance of power and direction of the war. In this TL, if Germany had gained an actual advantage (such as if Vichy permitted full German access to their north and west african bases and/or Madagascar to support the submarine campaign, the French joined the Axis campaign against the British in the Med and North Africa, or if initial French resistance to Anglo-American nvasions of north african and metropolitan France was stiff), there would be few among the allies willing to cut France any slack. That's not even considering the Soviet reaction if French forces joined in Operation Barbarossa.

Well, what the Soviets think is not going to be any relevant in the end
(just like it wasn't for Italy), since the Anglo-Americans shall be the only ones having boots into France. But otherwise, you make a most valid and interesting point, Vichy contribution to the Axis would a significant factor and could change the equation for the Axis significantly in 1940-42. Developing your argument, I can list some of the most relevant ways it cna change the course of the war, IMO:

I honestly lack sufficient WWII naval expertise to judge how much U-boats would be more effective with plenty of bases in North and West Africa (I think that Britain would manage to seize Madagascar soon afterwards French declaration of war, too close to South Africa). On a hunch I would say they shall not be a game-changing factor, but I could be mistaken.

In the Mediterranean, however, the picture is rather different. The Regia Marina and French Mediterranean Fleet combined could most easily get the upper hand and wrest control of the Mediterranean from Britain. Malta would most likely be switftly lost, French contribution in North Africa would most likely make Britain lose Egypt in 1940-41.

In the worst case scenario for Britain, they could face the "perfect storm" of the I-G-F Africa Korps conquering Egypt and preventing the fall of Ethiopia, Axis troops flooding Syria by air and sea (if Britain fails to conquer it beforehand), linking with philo-Axis forces in Iraq and Iran, and kicking the British out of the Middle East. With Britain still lacking the cobelligerance of America, and the demoralizing effect of fighting all of fascist continental Europe, the loss of North Africa and the Middle East could quite easily cause the downfall of the war coalition in Britain. If this happens, end of story, at the very least the Axis can exhaust isolated Russia into a Brest-Litovsk peace.

Even if this doesn't happen, Barbarossa would have a rather different course if the Axis could strike Russia from the Caucasus, too.

And even if the Axis only manages to conquer North Africa, and fails to get a real advantage during 1941 in Russia, French troops could quite likely give the Axis the extra boost it needs to conquer Stalingrad in the early phases of Operation Blue. As a consequence, Russia would be cut off from the Caucasus oilfields, and its war effort would be in deep trouble. Likewise, Russian counterattacks in late 1942 and during 1943 would be much less effective and costly. Mid-late 1943 could easily see relatively exhausted Russia facing a strong Axis entrenched on the Don, if not the Volga, and still making a credible threat to Moscow. A plead for a Brest-Litovsk separate peace would be absolutely likely, and assuming someone talks some sense in Hitler, it could be accepted.

Without Egypt, with Axis forces manning North Africa in numbers, and with the Italo-French fleet patrolling, the success of Torch becomes far from certain.

Anyway, if Russia bails out, and with Axis France, a successful Allied landing in France or Italy becomes ASB nonetheless. The Western Allies could conceivably land in Norway or Spain, and seize a good chunk of it before Axis successful counterattack owing to crappy logistic, but they would absolutely fail to achieve a strategic breakthrough towards the core of the continent before they get bottled out and stalemated for the same reason. The WA would be forced to kill time until they get the nukes.

It is quite possible that FDR would pressure for gambling everything on a rushed landing on the continent. With the demoralizing factor of Russia's bailout, and if the WA keep reaping bloody failures in their assaults on Fortress Europe (not to mention the fact that after Russia is out, the Axis can redirect its war production on air defense, making the Allied bombing offensive less and less effective for growing casualties), a collapse of the will to fight in the Anglo-American public (which doesn't have the slightest idea the nukes are coming) during 1944 is quite conceivable.

French contribution is not really going to change anything about the war in the Pacific. But in Europe it would quite possibly, if not most likely, to change the equation enough for the Axis that at the very least the Allies are stalemated and forced to wait for the nukes as a gamebreaker, at the very most win the war for the fascist coalition. Germany, France, and Italy getting nuked does not make for a pretty picture. But on the other hand, the Western Allies would be the ones to free Eastern Europe, which would be spared the scourge of Stalinism.
 
Eurofed, I'm not too certain about the details, but when Hitler declared war on the USA, the Axis lost. Be it like OTL or nukes used as intended, America is going to have boots in Berlin when the war ends.

Hmm, would France becoming a co-belligerent be enough to knock Stalin out of his denial? If it is, things could go very differently.
 
To get France to do something like this would take some unlikely real statesmanship out of Germany probably early (late 1940). Something like letting France keep her prewar boundries (including keeping Alsace- Lorraine and all their colonies) in exchange for use of colonial bases for German Air/Submarines and the lease of French warships against England.

Regardless. I don't think even 1940 USA would take this lightly. USA would cut relations with Vichy, seize Martinique and French Guiana right away and any Pacific possesions Britain couldn't grab and maybe even Dakar if the German were preparing to move in. USA would set up a government in exile in one of those places.
 
Regardless. I don't think even 1940 USA would take this lightly. USA would cut relations with Vichy, seize Martinique and French Guiana right away and any Pacific possesions Britain couldn't grab and maybe even Dakar if the German were preparing to move in. USA would set up a government in exile in one of those places.

Why? I can see cutting relations with Vichy, but the USA didn't enter the war until late, late 41.
 

Typo

Banned
The US never tolerated hostile and/or threatening powers in the western Hemisphere.
 
Ah, okay, that makes sense.


Edit: Is that something that Vichy would declare war for? The US being brought in earlier has huge effects.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Eurofed, I'm not too certain about the details, but when Hitler declared war on the USA, the Axis lost. Be it like OTL or nukes used as intended, America is going to have boots in Berlin when the war ends.

I fully agree that if the Anglo-Americans remain committed to victory to the end, nukes shall win the day if nothing else (but OTL landings are rather uncertain to succeed in North Africa and all but guaranteed to fail in Italy and France). However, the Anglo-American public knows nothing about their coming. Just like the Union almost did in 1864, the Anglo-Americans in 1944 can tire out of a conventional war that looks (and quite possibly is) unwinnable and throw the towel and victory away. Churchill and Roosevelt are not dictators or invincible political gods. If Stalin is forced to bail out, Britain was teetering on the brink of a terminal manpower crisis in 1944-45, and the war in Europe is not quite as personal as the one in the Pacific for America. If a couple of landings in North Africa and/or Europe turn out to be bloody failures and Russia bailed out, I can easily see Churchill being kicked out and FDR losing the 1944 election to an isolationist "Pacific only" Republican candidate and/or Congress.

Hmm, would France becoming a co-belligerent be enough to knock Stalin out of his denial? If it is, things could go very differently.

Quite possibly. OTOH, since Germany previously vanquished France with apparent ease, he might just as easily contempously dismiss French contribution to the Axis war effort, and nothing would change.

Paradoxically, the best case scenario for him could be for French contributon to waste Britain so much in the Mediterranean that it bails out of the war,but puts him on full alert, so that Barbarossa only manages to win a moderate victory (say the Dniepr border, or at the very most the 1939 one). OTOH, it would be worse if French contribution changes the picture substantially but not so much that Britain is kicked out (say the Axis secures air-naval supremacy in the Mediterranean control of North Africa, but not much else, no strategic breakout in the Middle East), and changes the Barbarossa equation so that the Axis wins a clear victory in 1942. He would be forced to a full Brest-Litovsk peace in 1943, and those territories would be lost to the USSR whatever the outcome of the final match between the Nazi empire and the WA. Even if the Americans win with the nukes, they are not going to return Ukraine to Stalin, not when they get plenty of firsthand evidence about what Stalinism really means to subject peoples.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
Something like letting France keep her prewar boundries (including keeping Alsace- Lorraine and all their colonies)

That's not too likely IMO. But a valid alternative would be France getting territorial compensations out of Belgium and ungrateful Spain, as well as promises of future gains from British colonies.

Edit: Is that something that Vichy would declare war for? The US being brought in earlier has huge effects.

Unlikely IMO. Hitler made a concerned effort to avoid war with the USA in 1940-41, e.g. telling the KM to avoid answering to US provocations (even if he most foolishly changed his mind after PH). I think he would tell Petain to eat crow for now, and wait for when the Axis is ready to reap revenge on America (as if!) after Britain and Russia are vanquished.
 
I think you underestimate FDR's political support in America. We elected the man four times! To put this in perspective, Andrew Jackson didn't seek a third term, save for Teddy, no president seriously considered running for a Third Term.

FDR got four. We loved him. He, possibly alone among presidents, had enough pull to keep us in the war until we win.



I also think you underestimate the obstinacy of the USSR. If nothing else, fear of Stalin will keep Russia fighting until Moscow falls, it isn't going to bail out.



Also, if Catspoke's scenario happens, that could leas to the Axis declaring war on America early, which means Russia gets War-Time Lend-Lease from the beginning.


Edit:

Unlikely IMO. Hitler made a concerned effort to avoid war with the USA in 1940-41, e.g. telling the KM to avoid answering to US provocations (even if he most foolishly changed his mind after PH). I think he would tell Petain to eat crow for now, and wait for when the Axis is ready to reap revenge on America (as if!) after Britain and Russia are vanquished.

Possibly, but IMHO Hitler and Stalin are crazy enough that you can have them make just about any decision for the purposes of the TL.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
I think you underestimate FDR's political support in America. We elected the man four times! To put this in perspective, Andrew Jackson didn't seek a third term, save for Teddy, no president seriously considered running for a Third Term.

FDR got four. We loved him. He, possibly alone among presidents, had enough pull to keep us in the war until we win.

So what ? In our 1944, he showed to the polls with a successful invasion of Europe. It's quite easy to win elections when you're clearly winning in the field, ask Lincoln. Now, change the picture to any two of Torch, Husky, and D-Day being abject military failures, wasting many tens of thousands of GI and millions of equipment for nothing. Add to this Russia bowing out with tail between its legs, and most American electors can quite easily judge the war in Europe as unwinnable, and kick out its main supporter in order to put an end to it. The war with Hitler wasn't nowhere as personal as Pearl Harbor. The nukes would change the picture totally, but the public can't know anything about them, nobody even knows if they are going to work for sure in 1944.

As for FDR getting elected four times, despite the chain of most exceptional events that caused it into being in the first place (first the Great Depression, then WWII) the act caused so much backlash that it created the 22nd Amendment within an handful years. I think you are seriously overestimating FDR's appeal out of his post-WWII legend. It may be that I'm wholly immune to it, I hate the man's guts for foolishly selling half of my continent to Stalin for nothing. But I can totally see him being kicked out of office in 1944 as an inept warmonger if he keeps reaping failures in Europe. It almost happened to Lincoln, and ACW was much more vital and personal to America than WWII (not to mention that Lincoln was head, shoulders, chest, and waist above FDR, he would have wholly understood Stalin a mile away). In his time, FDR was a polarizing controversial figure, almost as hated as he was loved, ongoing success in the economy and at war kept him with the upper hand at the polls, but this can easily reverse if he keeps reaping military failures.

OTOH, I fully agree that if someone can talk FDR into avoiding foolhardy landings into Europe and biding time for the nukes, this would win the war for America.

I also think you underestimate the obstinacy of the USSR. If nothing else, fear of Stalin will keep Russia fighting until Moscow falls, it isn't going to bail out.

Again, it seems to me that hindsight is letting you believe the post-war false legend of the man. Actually, Stalin offered a Brest-Litovsk peace in 1941 and 1942, and even if 1943 he offered a white peace. If 1942-1943 sees the Axis entrenched on the Volga, with the Red Army oil-starved and bleeding white, he's going to keep pleading for a Brest-Litovsk peace, and assuming someone talks some sense into Hitler (not too unreasonable, he would have accepted the Dniepr border in 1943), he's going to get it. Why he shouldn't ? Lenin did the same to save his regime in 1918.

Also, if Catspoke's scenario happens, that could leas to the Axis declaring war on America early, which means Russia gets War-Time Lend-Lease from the beginning.

I don't regard it as really plausible. Hitler went out of his way to avoid war with America before PH, and Petain hasn't the foolhardiness to declare war to America on his own without Hitler's approval, he's no Mussolini.
 
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Cook

Banned
Following the Royal Navy attack on the French Fleet at anchor in Oran, Vichy France very nearly did become an active belligerent on the Axis Side.

http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/churchillsinkingfrenchfleet.php

If Hitler had been a little more flattering to Marshal Petain, perhaps offering some concessions to the harshness of the recently signed Armistice and releasing the French Prisoners of War that were in German POW camps they may have.

Goebbels could have emphasised that the war and defeat was the fault of England and a gullable Paul Reynaud.He could spin the story that France had only gone to war because of English lies and had now been betrayed and attacked by its former so called ally.

Then with airbases and ports in French North Africa available the Germans could have closed Straights of Gibraltar to Britain in 1940 and cut off the Mediterranean.

The much stronger Axis position may have been enough to bring Franco’s Spain into the Axis fold.
 
I object to your characterization of "someone talking some sense into Hitler" as not unreasonable. The man was even more of a nut than Stalin.

Also, if he's doing well against Russia he's going to push for the Urals, not settle for a peace.



Re: Lincoln vs FDR,
Lincoln, in his time, was even less favorably regarded than Bush Jr. The Union victories were the only thing that kept him in office and only after reconstruction was his value to the Nation appreciated.

FDR on the other hand was loved tremendously. Probably our leftmost president, even after the Reagan realignment he is lauded and loved and looked up to. He is also not stupid. If land invasion of Europe is out of the cards he'll aid Churchill where he can, pursue the war against Japan to his fullest, play up every German Atrocity Stalin can news to him of in the media, and when the nukes are ready, BOOM. Furthermore, he did not rely on the War for his third term, he got it using his experience combating the Great Depression not the needs of wartime.
 
Have we considered a possible "Downfall" attack in Europe? The use of nuclear weapons in a tactical role would crush German resolve.

The United States will not be suffering terrible manpower losses without large ground forces. In this regard, Eurofed's ideas are pure fantasy. The Soviets would almost certainly remain in the fight, because of the way Hitler used his allies in OTL--they would only appear in numbers when Germany was on the ropes. There would be no giant French forces appearing in the opening campaign, because the Germans didn't raise large numbers of allied forces for the opening attack.

A 1946 overland campaign spearheaded with nuclear ordinance would win rather quickly for the allies. France and Italy would suffer nuclear attack. The Soviet Union would face a long and grueling war, as it did in OTL--but even if Germany somehow fared even better than OTL, there is no hope of Germany ever shutting down the Soviets by taking the Volga Bend and the Transural region-the Soviets will simply withdraw industry from Muscovy if need be.

Vichy in the Axis would probably lead to a nuclear campaign in Europe, possible a Downfall kind of military campaign, a badly wounded Soviet Union with no real hope of challenging the United States, and perhaps see the United States returning to isolationism after seeing that the world is "All Clear".

It is also my suspicion that EuroFed is better known as General Zod, the proponent of a reformed Nazi Germany. But this scenario would end with Europe scarred by miles long burn marks, not a successful German State.
 
I agree with much of what Max says. However, I don't think Eurofed is a Zodpuppet. Zod isn't banned, so there's no reason for it.
 
I agree with much of what Max says. However, I don't think Eurofed is a Zodpuppet. Zod isn't banned, so there's no reason for it.

I think Zod just lost his password or something like that. I just notice a similarity in their point of view, and mean no offense. I see EuroFed and Zod making similar errors in reasoning.
 
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