Wi:US funds flooding the Qattara Depression 1957

[DominusNovus]

I think a more interesting idea would be diverting Nile into the Depression. You could do this by first supplementing the Nile with water from the Congo. You'd get a freshwater sea, though you'd still need to dig a channel to the Mediterranean. This would support a lot of people. As it is, 95% of Egyptians live in the tiny Nile Valley. You'd open up a lot of farmland, and then settlers would move out and have lots of kids to provide farm labor. This could double or even triple Egypt's population.

There is a version of the plan that diverts water from the Rosetta branch to the depression. It might be easier to follow the path of the old Canopic branch a little bit, I don't know.

Anyway, here's the discharge from the Rosetta branch:

Lets be generous and assume 5 km^3 per year. The volume would be 1,213 km^3. Thats 242 years to fill, not counting evaporation. Of course, there's loads more water up stream, but there's a reason it doesn't make it all the way downstream, and its not just evaporation. That water gets used by the population of Egypt.

 

[kernals12]

There is a version of the plan that diverts water from the Rosetta branch to the depression. It might be easier to follow the path of the old Canopic branch a little bit, I don't know.

Anyway, here's the discharge from the Rosetta branch:

Lets be generous and assume 5 km^3 per year. The volume would be 1,213 km^3. Thats 242 years to fill, not counting evaporation. Of course, there's loads more water up stream, but there's a reason it doesn't make it all the way downstream, and its not just evaporation. That water gets used by the population of Egypt.

I did say that you might supplement the Nile with water from the Congo.

 

[PMN1]

What is needed is for an ASB to move the depression to the east so its right under the Nile.........

 

[DominusNovus]

I did say that you might supplement the Nile with water from the Congo.

The Congo is better used refilling lake Chad.

 

[DominusNovus]

In the realm of the wildly impractical, I really want to explore the idea of a maniacal Pharaoh who looks at the usefulness of the Faiyum as a flood control measure and digs a channel from the Nile to Qattara.

 

[knightdepaix]

The Congo is better used refilling lake Chad.

In Africa, 1) Lake Chad, 2) Qattara Depression in Egypt and 3) Chott el Djerid in Tunisia are one way or other described online --- search YouTube videos please --- that flooding projects have been suggested. In addition, Egypt ia also in quarrel with Ethiopia while the latter's damming megaproject for hydroelectricity decreases the Nile's waterflow. Also Lake Chad used to be a large lake. So purely in terms of balancing the budget of water volumes, a tributary of the Benue river --- Mayo Kébbi --- could be used to divert flood from the Lagdo Reservoir into The Logon. The Logon eventually drains to Lake Chad.

1)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lagdo_Reservoir&oldid=904509879
In 2012, water released from the dam flooded areas including Adamawa State in Nigeria, resulting in more than 10 deaths and loss of properties worth thousands of dollars. A bigger effect of the flooding was at the lower Benue river region where more than 10,000 homes were submerged for more than two weeks. This left more than 10,000 hectares of farmland flooded and the streets of Makurdi occupied by crocodiles and other dangerous creeping creatures. This was not the first time it had occurred, but the government of Nigeria has still not found a way to prevent it.

The Benue orginally drains to the the Gulf of Guinea. In the suggestion, the release of water volumes from the Lagdo Reservoir and part of those from the Benue drains to Lake Chad. In addition, water from the Congo could be diverted to tributaries of Lake Chad.

2) The Qattara Depression Project (QDP) would better off drains Mediterranean waters than the Nile because of not only of water usage but also the geopolitical quarrel with upstream Ethiopia and Sudan. Egypt can be accessed by sea from the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. Except from internationally managed port of Djibouti,

Ethiopia is the strongest nation in general out of the trio Eritrea, Ethiopia and Somalia. Keeping good relations between Ethiopia and Egypt saves Egypt an insurance of a potential ally in future. On the other hand, using Mediterranean waters means decreasing very lightly the water level of the global oceans, while adding the desalination products -- sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium and chloride --- maybe Lithium too --- and carbon dioxide from the air in plants. Doubling or Tripling Egyptian population would make the nation a potential powerhouse independently --- against potentially Israel...

As it is, 95% of Egyptians live in the tiny Nile Valley. You'd open up a lot of farmland, and then settlers would move out and have lots of kids to provide farm labor. This could double or even triple Egypt's population.

Knightdepaix is doing yoeman's work keeping this thread alive, haha.
The Qattara depression goes as deep as as 147 meters below sea level, at its deepest. The Mediterranean reaches that depth almost right off the Egyptian coast. Last, but far from least: the more saline water is, the denser it is. So, we build a tunnel at the bottom of the Depression out to the Mediterranean, well past wherever the water for the project is being sourced from, before flooding the region, and, bam, you have a self regulating salinity level. We might dig some shafts down to the tunnel, in classic Persian Qanat style, especially since it will likely need some maintenance from time to time. I say its self-regulating, but you'll likely want to include some backflow big preventers (just simple flaps to keep water from flowing in the wrong direction) to keep the water from flowing through this drain into the Qattara Lake (especially if you're desalinating the water beforehand). Nothing fancy, but better to be safe than sorry. Although, when you first start filling it, it would make for one hell of a fountain!

Also handy is that, since this water is the densest in the entire lake, its likely the water with the most minerals dissolved in it, so if you're looking to extract any from the water, this drain is probably the best place to do it. Perhaps the backflow preventers could be useful here - you could open and close them at will, to control the flow of water entirely to your liking. No idea if that would actually help with resource extraction, but I figure I'd mention the option.

Thank you for the recognition. The drain that you mentioned is very likely underground inside the elevation between the QD and the Mediterranean Sea. If the desalination uses sunlight, underground water is not going to receive sunlight. However, if the water inflow into the QD is also dammed or going thru channels for hydroelectricity, could that electricity be used for electrodialysis?

3) Chott el Djerid in Tunisia

That video proposes to flood the Chott el Djerid in Tunisia.

 

[knightdepaix]

The Salton Sea is a disgusting cesspool, the odors of the dying fish occasionally can be smelled all the way in Los Angeles, and you want to make another one. Thanks a lot Tim!

People are working to improve the disgusting situation.

 

[DominusNovus]

Thank you for the recognition. The drain that you mentioned is very likely underground inside the elevation between the QD and the Mediterranean Sea. If the desalination uses sunlight, underground water is not going to receive sunlight. However, if the water inflow into the QD is also dammed or going thru channels for hydroelectricity, could that electricity can be used for electrodialysis?

You can use the electricity for whatever you want. My point about a drain is largely to resolve the issue that, absent additional desalination, even if you fill the depression with fresh water, its going to be saline. Just look at the Dead Sea. Fresh water comes in, leeches the salt from the surrounding Earth, and evaporates away.

One option that just occurred to me: At a depth of 500-900 meters, the pressure from the ocean is equivalent to that needed for reverse osmosis desalination. I’m trying to think of an economical way to use that pressure to both desalinate water for low energy input, and pump it back up to sea level.

Fill the depression with saline water from the Med. Dig a 300-500 meter shaft at the deepest part of the depression, and desalinate water there, before just dumping the fresh water back into the depression, and pipe the brine out to the Med, at a level depth. As long as you can outpace evaporation and inflow, you should be able to keep the whole lake relatively fresh.

 

[Oldbill]

Thanks for keeping this going. It is very, very interesting.

While freshwater is more desirable for the lake, even a salt water sea can be very productive and would improve the local climate. Remember that "Perfect is the enemy of the good".

 

[kernals12]

You can use the electricity for whatever you want. My point about a drain is largely to resolve the issue that, absent additional desalination, even if you fill the depression with fresh water, its going to be saline. Just look at the Dead Sea. Fresh water comes in, leeches the salt from the surrounding Earth, and evaporates away.

One option that just occurred to me: At a depth of 500-900 meters, the pressure from the ocean is equivalent to that needed for reverse osmosis desalination. I’m trying to think of an economical way to use that pressure to both desalinate water for low energy input, and pump it back up to sea level.

Fill the depression with saline water from the Med. Dig a 300-500 meter shaft at the deepest part of the depression, and desalinate water there, before just dumping the fresh water back into the depression, and pipe the brine out to the Med, at a level depth. As long as you can outpace evaporation and inflow, you should be able to keep the whole lake relatively fresh.

That would be incredibly expensive

 

[knightdepaix]

Last, but far from least: the more saline water is, the denser it is. Also handy is that, since this water is the densest in the entire lake, its likely the water with the most minerals dissolved in it, so if you're looking to extract any from the water, this drain is probably the best place to do it. Perhaps the backflow preventers could be useful here - you could open and close them at will, to control the flow of water entirely to your liking. No idea if that would actually help with resource extraction, but I figure I'd mention the option.

You can use the electricity for whatever you want. My point about a drain is largely to resolve the issue that, absent additional desalination, even if you fill the depression with fresh water, its going to be saline. Just look at the Dead Sea. Fresh water comes in, leeches the salt from the surrounding Earth, and evaporates away.
One option that just occurred to me: At a depth of 500-900 meters, the pressure from the ocean is equivalent to that needed for reverse osmosis desalination. I’m trying to think of an economical way to use that pressure to both desalinate water for low energy input, and pump it back up to sea level.

Another way of saying, "the more saline water is, the denser it is" and "since this water is the densest in the entire lake, its likely the water with the most minerals dissolved in it." is, "the higher this water climbs, the less saline it shall be." Furthermore, less salinity from more means some contents of minerals need to come out of this water. There the reverse electrodialysis (RED) factors in.

A cascade or series of RED chambers or cells could be built in channels close to the QD at a certain depth just slightly deeper than the deepest of the QD. The channels lead to the underground shore of Mediterranean where the osmotic pressure of discharged water at the outlet equals to that of seawater.

Imagine an imaginary Archimedes screw in which each stair of the screw represents a chamber or cell of RED. As the densest QD water at that certain depth climbs by overflow from one chamber to next when at the same time progressing towards the Mediterranean seashore, the minerals contents come out into an extracting solvent. The flow of mineral ions (sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium cations and chloride anions) could generate electric current. In other words, the cells are stacked from the deepest to shallow. The osmotic pressure at the outlet of the last chamber more or less equals to that at a desired depth of the Mediterranean Sea. If a distance from the outlet to the seashore still exists, channels with backflow preventers could be built. Sampling of that water could be done also, as not to polluting the Sea.
The extracting solvent is represented by "pure water" and ascending seawater by "solution."

In sum, the process includes
1)Mediterranean water inflow to QD could go thru channels for generating hydroelectricity.
2)densest water could go to the bottom of the lake. Gravity helps.
3)Sunlight evaporates some QD water --- helped by the drier climate, making the water more concentrated than that in the Mediterranean Sea. In other words, solar energy could be stored in the dissolved mineral concentrations.
4)Underground Reversed Electrodialysis could leech out the minerals and generate electricity that originally comes from potential and solar energies. The leeched water could return to the Mediterranean Sea and the cycle could continue.

Drawbacks:
1)Choice of the extract solvent at the bottom (that 500-900 meters?) ... good question... any input?

2)good convection in QD lakewater is assumed...

3)the extraction of salt may actually consume energy from hydroelectricity; therefore the energy output may not be as greater as expected.

4)the good effect of climate is not guaranteed but neither does the adverse one.
5)the water needs to be managed because junk exists in water. This drawback could be increasing when the QD lakeshore is populated and human activities flourish. For example:

The Salton Sea is a disgusting cesspool, the odors of the dying fish occasionally can be smelled all the way in Los Angeles, and you want to make another one.

5.1)

04:21 The effect on the climate wasn't guaranteed to be a good one. Nobody wants to have a marsh the size of the US somewhere on the planet you know. picky picky.... it's worth mentioning though that engineers in Southern California actually created an artificial lake in 1905 purely by accident they released the waters of the Colorado River into a dry Basin the water filled it and made a new Salt Lake. that's now called the Salton Sea. it's become a lot smaller over time since then but it's still the largest lake in California. if that doesn't count as a success then I don't know what does. 04:59

5.2)

People are working to improve the disgusting situation.

 

[knightdepaix]

Mediterranean Sea water masses: vertical distribution

Mean surface temperature

Freshwater stress and scarcity in africa by 2025

 

[knightdepaix]

From 5:12 If the QDP had been carried out, the desalinated water for agriculture use (its salinity needed not be as low as in drinking water) could have helped the cotton plantation. More importantly, the amount of the desalinated water may not be as much as desired because much solar energy would be invested for its production. That is okay because cotton is known to tolerant dryness. The evacuated land that had been used for growing cotton would be used to grow food crop again. Then Egypt could have produced food crop and Cotton the cash crop.

 

[knightdepaix]

Can flooding all Qattara Depression, Chott el Djerid and restore Aral Sea and Lake Chad help remedy the situation?

 

[DominusNovus]

Can flooding all Qattara Depression, Chott el Djerid and restore Aral Sea and Lake Chad help remedy the situation?

Run the numbers.

What is the total volume of the Qattara Depression, Chott el Djerid, and Aral Sea (minus remaining water) and Lake Chad (minus remaining water)? Add in any similar projects.

Then, take the surface area of the oceans and see how many millimeters or centimeters of rise you can store in these smaller bodies of water.

 

[Arkenfolm]

I might've calculated it in this thread or elsewhere but the total volume of water in these lakes (in Africa) would be slightly higher than Lake Ontario assuming Qattara is filled all the way (decreasing the hydro potential). In reality I'd expect it to be between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario in volume of water. The Aral Sea if fully restored would increase this to something like 3-3,500 km3 of water which is still only about the volume of Lake Huron. So effect on sea level is negligible.

 

[knightdepaix]

something like 3-3,500 km3 of water which is still only about the volume of Lake Huron. So effect on sea level is negligible.

Add any other below sea level dry places on the planet. Seawater from the Red Sea to the Afar Triangle. Intense heat from nearby volcanoes is going to help desalination, is it? Then the desalinated water are shared mostly by Ethiopia and Eritrea. Colorado River drains eventually more to the Death Valley Basin. The Salton sink including the Salton Sea and Laguna Salada receive water from the Gulf of California. Northern river reversal drains to fill the Aral Sea. Irtysh-Karamay-Urumqi Canal drains to Xinjiang.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Add any other below sea level dry places on the planet. Seawater from the Red Sea to the Afar Triangle. Intense heat from nearby volcanoes is going to help desalination, is it? Then the desalinated water are shared mostly by Ethiopia and Eritrea. Colorado River drains eventually more to the Death Valley Basin. The Salton sink including the Salton Sea and Laguna Salada receive water from the Gulf of California. Northern river reversal drains to fill the Aral Sea. Irtysh-Karamay-Urumqi Canal drains to Xinjiang.

Those basins are more or less very small. I just don't think you're getting more than a few less cm at best of sea level rise, and potentially a net loss as increased salinity (especially in the Arctic) means less sea ice which means less albedo. Water in general has less albedo than sand, although here I believe the amount of clouds created negate that loss (which wouldn't be the case if you turned the entire Sahara green), at least according to a study I encountered.

Point is you'd be doing these projects for regional benefit and not as a geoengineering effort to counteract climate change. The price tag is too high to think otherwise as few billion will buy you some interesting geoengineering projects or simply a lot of sea walls.

 

[knightdepaix]

Point is you'd be doing these projects for regional benefit and not as a geoengineering effort to counteract climate change.

1) Hydroengineering in the Salton Sink must benefit the USA and Mexico
2) Hydroengineering in restoring the Aral Sea must benefit Kazakhstan, Uzbekhistan.
3) Any QDP must benefit Egypt
4) Hydroengineering in restoring the Lake Chad must benefit Chad, Nigeria, NIger, Cameroon.
5) Hydroengineering in the Afar region must benefit Ethiopia and Eritrea.
6) Hydroengineering in Tunisia on those "Chott"s must benefit Tunisia

 

[knightdepaix]

This video suggests using the Mediterranean seawater as the working fluid in a second cycle of coolant in a nuclear power plant near the thin landmass between the Depression and the Sea.

1. The seawater goes downwards through the turbine of hydroelectricity and generates power.
2. The seawater enters the nuclear power plant and as the video suggests, it functions and becomes heated.
3. The heated seawater drives the turbine for electricity
4. and then the heated seawater is discharged to the Depression as its thermal now wasted energy help evaporate itself.

Thanks for watching