WI: The Netherlands Joins the Central Powers during WW1

[Theodoric]

Well, you understand what I'm saying.

Of course the Dutch would be incredibly useful for the early war, but how do you get them to fight an aggressive war against their brothers?

Brothers? They fought a war of independence against us, for crying out loud. They even had the audacity to win !

The relationship between Flanders and Holland (and thus by extension Belgium and the Netherlands) is some kind of manic depressive love-hate sibling rivalry, wherein nearly everything can or could happen.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Yeah, but that was in the 19th century! Things change. Besides, they have more in common with each other than with the Germans.

 

[Fiji]

yes, the Dutch do have a lot in common with the Flemings ... sadly, in 1914, Flemings have bugger all to say in the way Belgium is run. Politically, 1914 Belgium is a French province. (ok, that's an exageration, but you get my point).
Plus relations between Belgium and the Netherlands haven't exactly been cordial these past 80-something years (speaking from a 1914 pov). It won't be hard at all to get the common Dutch soldier enthusiastic about a war with those dumb Belgians.
It might get dicey when Dutch speaking and badly injured POW end up in Dutch hands, but at that point, most Dutch soldiers will have lost at least a few of their buddies to Flemish/Belgian bullets. Makes it easier to just keep following orders.

 

[Spitfiremk1]

Here, does anyone mind if i use these ideas in a Timeline i am working on?

 

[Volksgrenadier2006]

So, let's assume some clogs end up in the machinery and things end up in the same stalemate (only a bit further south). What then? I remember reading that the Dutch were world leaders in submarine tech at this time ... however I read this in a Dutch magazine, so grains of salt might be required. Plus, the Dutch, just like almost everyone, weren't convinced the submarine was all that great. So, it will be a while before the allies realise what they have and being applying it. And it remains op for debate just how usefull these 'better' subs are going to be. Good enough to actually kill something during TTLs equivalent of Jutland?

Don't forget Fokker. Even though he was already building planes in and for Germany this would mean the Netherlands wouldn't buy shitty allied planes, but advanced Fokkers.

I thought that was captain Ortega.

I think there is a good possibility of it being true
(translated: Ik denk dat het best eens waar kan zijn.)

In OTL at the Paris Peace Conference Belgium already demanded Dutch Flanders and Limburg because the Netherlands allowed German forces to retreat through dutch territory, expect them to get it in the case of a Dutch defeat.

Can anyone send me a link or anything with these Belgium claims?
Cause I find it hard to except that Belgium could really gain all that territory in such a case.

This is what Belgium would look like. One thing is clear to me. If this would have happened, Belgium would clearly have seized to exist as a state by the year 2000. Flanders and Walloon would have separated and because of all Dutch sentiment in North Brabant and Limburg this could in the end possible even lead to Flanders and the Netherlands becoming a union.

At least my hometown would become a strategic border town it was for so long again

 

[pompejus]

Can anyone send me a link or anything with these Belgium claims?
Cause I find it hard to except that Belgium could really gain all that territory in such a case.

This is what Belgium would look like. One thing is clear to me. If this would have happened, Belgium would clearly have seized to exist as a state by the year 2000. Flanders and Walloon would have separated and because of all Dutch sentiment in North Brabant and Limburg this could in the end possible even lead to Flanders and the Netherlands becoming a union.

At least my hometown would become a strategic border town it was for so long again

First of all I would like to mention that i am no so sure that the Belgians claimed, wanted or would have got Dutch Brabant.

Secondly I would like to say that I really like your idea of Belgium gaining Limburg, Brabant and Zeeuws Vlaanderen and then collapsing because of the balance shift between the Flemish and Walloon. Rejoining the Netherlands doesn't seems so unlikely, certainly not for the former Dutch provinces. Also for the Flemish provinces to join the Netherlands isn't completely out of the question. It was certainly in thecards in those days. I believe many Flemish people cooperated with the Germans in WWI (what was it called again? Het verdriet van Belgie?), I can easily see them cooperating with the Dutch, certainly if the Dutch pose themselves as the liberators of the Flemish people. I like the idea of the Netherlands losing and still gaining Flanders in the long run (although many problems still must be solved in such case, like Brussels or the status of all of Belgian Brabant).

 

[Fiji]

First of all I would like to mention that i am no so sure that the Belgians claimed, wanted or would have got Dutch Brabant.

North Brabant is an old claim Belgium still had. Leo II even mentioned it as his primary goal when ascending to the throne. "To complete the revolution" it was called. The full extent of the claim was North Brabant, Limbourg and Zealandic Flanders (not all of Zealand as most people think ... See? Leo II wan't gready)
Of course, he then got side tracked in Congo and we all know how that ended.

Secondly I would like to say that I really like your idea of Belgium gaining Limburg, Brabant and Zeeuws Vlaanderen and then collapsing because of the balance shift between the Flemish and Walloon. Rejoining the Netherlands doesn't seems so unlikely, certainly not for the former Dutch provinces. Also for the Flemish provinces to join the Netherlands isn't completely out of the question. It was certainly in thecards in those days. I believe many Flemish people cooperated with the Germans in WWI (what was it called again? Het verdriet van Belgie?), I can easily see them cooperating with the Dutch, certainly if the Dutch pose themselves as the liberators of the Flemish people. I like the idea of the Netherlands losing and still gaining Flanders in the long run (although many problems still must be solved in such case, like Brussels or the status of all of Belgian Brabant).

Agreed.
French language media outlets often ignore, downplay or deny the whole "et pour les Flamands, la même chose" thing. But I have documents from my great grandfather that indicate that, yes, Flemish soldier were commanded in French and expected to magically understand. (hey, Walloon officers invented the ASBs!!!)

So, yes, there was quite a bit of resentment among the Flemish grunts that their French speaking bosses (both political and military) had them fighting their germanic brothers (whom they could actually understand and have limited conversations with)
Much of this sentiment evaporated when German mistreatment of civilians became clear.
So, in TTL, if the Dutch do indeed take care of their PR (and maybe keep the Germans on a leash wrt civilians) mutiny is entirely impossible.

 

[pompejus]

So, in TTL, if the Dutch do indeed take care of their PR (and maybe keep the Germans on a leash wrt civilians) mutiny is entirely impossible.

I assume you mean "mutiny is not entirely impossible" or "mutiny is entirely possible" or else I don't understand what you do mean.

 

[Fiji]

I assume you mean "mutiny is not entirely impossible" or "mutiny is entirely possible" or else I don't understand what you do mean.

indeed, that's what you get when you pay more attention to your keyboard then to your screen

I was going for "mutiny is not entirely impossible"

note to self: must relearn to type blind ... on qwerty this time
second note to self: must conquer world with army of mutant squirrells

 

[Spitfiremk1]

I think there was a thread about this already it came up with this.

Assuming that the CP loose the War like OTL, The Territorial losses would probably be like this.

In Europe, Belgium might get Zeelandic Flanders, Brabant and Limburg, while over seas, i can see Suriname going to the US (due to the Munro Doctrine) and the East indies being partitioned, with Britain taking Sumatra, Java and Bali, Australia getting West Papua and surrounding islands, Japan (assuming they joined int he invasion as mentioned above) grabbing Borneo and Celebes and Portugal (who as many people seem to forget, were in the Entente in OTL) getting the rest of Timor and maybe even Flores and Sumba (i think at one point during the 17th century they were Portuguese).

Anyway, heres a map showing the above.

 

[Spitfiremk1]

woops, posted this in the old thread

 

[Enigmajones]

woops, posted this in the old thread

Well at least this was brought up before

 

[wietze]

I personally think that the chances of the Netherlands joining the CP out of free choice are pretty slim. The government at the time was very in favout of staying neutral or even pro- Entente (the minister of war till 1917, N. Bosboom).
The commander of the armed forces of that time Gen CJ Sneijders was not liked by the government (due to being pro-German and being a defeatist) and they tried to remove him from his position several times, only to see it blocked every time by Queen Wilhelmina.
When like suggested by some the Queen perishes at some given time (from influenza for example) then Princess Juliana is next in line, being too young her grand-mother Emma most likely would become regent. With Wilhelmina’s demise the chance of survival of Gen Sneijders become rather slim, and very soon would be retired, thus greatly reducing the pro-Central faction.

On the other hand i do see a chance of the Netherlands joining the centrals after an incident caused by the entente. During WW1 there were incidents like the bombing of Zierikzee and Goes (both located in Zeeland)(25 bombing incidents occurred), or the attacking of CP merchant shipping in Dutch territorial waters.
For the sake of the POD lets say that one of the bombing incidents happens to a place the Queen would be visiting and let them hit the place where the Queen stays, and she perishing as a result. This definitely would bring the Netherlands in the war. A pod like this would have severe butterflies though because the Queens death due to British aggression might keep other countries out of the war that might have joined OTL, or push others over to the centrals at a much earlier stage, totally depending what stage of the war it was happening.

The mobilized strength of the Dutch army was like 500.000, that certainly would have an impact even though equipment wise they were lacking.

Some info on sub snorkels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_snorkel

But think there were a lot developments going on back then, so hard to say who did invent it, most likely a case of serendipity.

 

[Parma]

Would it make a difference when the battleship plan of 1912, was battleship plan of 1908?
I mean that the initial plan with a core of 9! an adapted plan of 6 battle ships was exepted by parlaiment.
And that by 1914 all 6 battleships and the smaller units, cruisers, submarines, torpedoboats etc, were complete?
I read also somewere, that the Dutch army was relative modern for WW1 standards and in process of modernisation, initialised in 1913. Suppose this modernisation program ( fieldgray uniforms, increase of number of MG's , modernisation of the artillery) started in 1911 and would be almost complete in 1914?
Would this make a difference in the Balance of power?

I admit, it still not a war winner.

 

[Vnix]

At that time the East Indies were rather well defended. I could see the British taking some small islands and perhaps get control of New Guinea but Java, the Molukken (don't know the English name) nor Sumatra would fall, with the possible exception of Atjeh, but I can see the Dutch defending their colony with allot of success.

The only reason the Japanese could take the Dutch East Indies was because it was already crippled.

Batavia would also be the longest surviving Dutch holding. In the Molukken and Java I don't see the dutch getting kicked out.

Also if the Dutch time their incursion well, they could at the same time plan an attack on Malaysia and perhaps even do a 'Pearl' on the British in Australia.




But the hardest thing would be getting the Dutch into the war. The easiest thing would be having Wilhelmina merry a Prusian, but that would mean the Dutch would have a rather increased military capability, just because of the Prusian at the Dutch court. Which would also put South Africa in danger because then the Dutch would start to get the Afrikaners, or Boeren to follow them and make Africa more of a battle field.

This would also lead to the emancipation of the Flemish people in Belgium, because at that time the Dutch speaking regions were oppressed and with Dutch involvement in the war, that would most likely result in getting the Flemish people follow in the war against France and the UK.

It would also lead to Belgian Congo joining the central powers for 90% of the ruling class at that time was Flemish.

So I think it is safe to assume that if the Dutch had been part of the war because of a Prussian marrying Wilhelmina, the war would have been different. (Anti-British sentiments were high because of the resent Boer-war)

This would also depend on how the Dutch act towards their brethren. If they act as their saviours and make the Flemish people think they are equal or even better than the Walons, then I can see the Flemish supporting the Dutch rather fast, causing mass revolts in the Belgian army (this is enhanced because of the fact Flemish soldiers did not understand French and were not taught it, but were expected to understand their French officers)


Thus depending on at what time the Dutch enter and why (being it a Prusian with Wilhelmina or being it an attack on Dutch shipping's (which have happened allot!)), the Dutch could win the war for the Germans.

At the start of WW2 the Dutch army AND navy was a shadow (compared to the armies etc of the other countries) of what it was at the time of WW1. Also the Dutch fleet in the Indies (both West and especially East) the Dutch could harm the British, thus tying up British resources elsewhere.

In Africa the Dutch could with held of the Flemish from Congo and the Germans from present day Namibia and the Boers/Afrikaners, take control of the tip of Africa. Keeping certain pockets of British resistance at a few points, perhaps the cape or even in a few major cities, but overall control turned over to the Dutch.





If the Dutch however join the war because of attacks on dutch shipping's, the war would result in loss, and the Dutch losing all colonies, perhaps Batavia and few areas around it would be annexed but stay in effective dutch control, but they would also lose about half of their territory on the North Sea, thus resulting in an even more fierce WW2. It would also keep Flemish people suppressed thus a possible revolution or civil war in Belgium.

 

[Monty Burns]

But the hardest thing would be getting the Dutch into the war. The easiest thing would be having Wilhelmina merry a Prusian, but that would mean the Dutch would have a rather increased military capability, just because of the Prusian at the Dutch court. Which would also put South Africa in danger because then the Dutch would start to get the Afrikaners, or Boeren to follow them and make Africa more of a battle field.

I don'T think that marriage is enough to bring a European country into war at that time. If that was the case, the British should have fought for Germany.

In fact, pretty much any monarchy would have to fight for the Germans, right?

This would also lead to the emancipation of the Flemish people in Belgium, because at that time the Dutch speaking regions were oppressed and with Dutch involvement in the war, that would most likely result in getting the Flemish people follow in the war against France and the UK.

Interesting idea. I'm not sure whether the Flemish would fight for the Germans, yet with Dutch soldiers occupying Flandria, there'll be more collaboration at least.

It would also lead to Belgian Congo joining the central powers for 90% of the ruling class at that time was Flemish.

But that would mean Belgian Congo being occupied quite fast.

Thus depending on at what time the Dutch enter and why (being it a Prusian with Wilhelmina or being it an attack on Dutch shipping's (which have happened allot!)), the Dutch could win the war for the Germans.

I doubt that. Even if the Dutch and Flemish fight for the Germans, how many troops could they provide and supply? All that with important ports being lost to the Germans as the Dutch are blockaded as well ITTL.

In Africa the Dutch could with held of the Flemish from Congo and the Germans from present day Namibia and the Boers/Afrikaners, take control of the tip of Africa. Keeping certain pockets of British resistance at a few points, perhaps the cape or even in a few major cities, but overall control turned over to the Dutch.

The problem would be to support the Boers - if they fight for the Dutch at all. If the Netherlands join the CP, they'll be blocked by the Royal Navy. I have no idea about the Dutch fleet back then, but I doubt that they could provide enough to break the British blockade together with the Germans and furthermore land troops in South Africa and supply them.

However, this may be an interesting POD: Even though the British gained the Cape colony, the Dutch could found another colony at Natal, for example, to where the Boers could emmigrate. This implies that when WW1 starts (I know -- butterflies...) the Dutch already have a significant presence in South Africa, hence the British would have to fight the Boer wars and WW1 at the same time.





If the Dutch however join the war because of attacks on dutch shipping's, the war would result in loss, and the Dutch losing all colonies, perhaps Batavia and few areas around it would be annexed but stay in effective dutch control, but they would also lose about half of their territory on the North Sea, thus resulting in an even more fierce WW2. It would also keep Flemish people suppressed thus a possible revolution or civil war in Belgium.[/QUOTE]

 

[Korporal Nooij]

I think there was a thread about this already it came up with this.

Assuming that the CP loose the War like OTL, The Territorial losses would probably be like this.

In Europe, Belgium might get Zeelandic Flanders, Brabant and Limburg, while over seas, i can see Suriname going to the US (due to the Munro Doctrine) and the East indies being partitioned, with Britain taking Sumatra, Java and Bali, Australia getting West Papua and surrounding islands, Japan (assuming they joined int he invasion as mentioned above) grabbing Borneo and Celebes and Portugal (who as many people seem to forget, were in the Entente in OTL) getting the rest of Timor and maybe even Flores and Sumba (i think at one point during the 17th century they were Portuguese).

Anyway, heres a map showing the above.

View attachment 99026

One word...

AMAZING!!



Even though it may seem like i'm betraying my fatherland, i love the map and the whole idea! Awesome!!! This thread is subscribed.

 

[Timmy811]

I don'T think that marriage is enough to bring a European country into war at that time. If that was the case, the British should have fought for Germany.

In fact, pretty much any monarchy would have to fight for the Germans, right?

What about the Crown Prince? He's only 2 years younger than her IIRC, so its definitely possible. Surely the prospect of their heir ruling both countries would have improved relations between the two countries.