WI: the Me 163 is designed around a jet engine

tomo pauk

... and not around the rocket engine like it was historically so.
It will probably feture the Jumo 004 engine (feel free to suggest an other likely candidate), the general layout of the aircraft and armament remains as same as possible. Jumo 004 was ~550 kg heavier than the Walther rocke engine.
Fuel - in OTL it carried a bit more than 2 tons of fuel+oxidiser. The Me 262 carried 2570 L (2000+ kg) of fuel for it's two Jumos, so there is a lot of weight to be saved due to reduced fuel load for just one jet engine. Say, 1200 kg of fuel (~1400 L) is carried, for a bit more range than for the Me 262, and should even out the weight increase due to jet engine instead the rocket engine.

Obviously, the main effect is that Luftwaffe can field a jet fighter earlier, and Me 262 is not pursued. What could be other consequences, both during ww2 and after? Both techincal and operational/strategic?
(yes, germany is still defeated some time in 1945, though we can discuss the goings in 1944-45)
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
With the Rocket, you got seven minutes of powered flight, but three minutes got you to 39,000 feet, and had no difficulties in changing power levels for its 3300lbs-ft thrust, flame out wasn't a problem.
Lot weight in fuel, but the Walther motor was compact, only 365 pounds
The 004C had 2200lbs-ft of thrust and weighed 1600 pounds and longer, and volume needed for ducting- so the fuselage, complete redesign

Less fuel give you room for landing gear, so that's a plus

You end up with something close to the I.Ae. 27 Pulqui at worst
Pulqui_II_-_Argentina_-_1951.jpg


This only did 450mph with a 3600lbs.ft Derwent in 1947

 

tomo pauk

wiking said:
I'm thinking this is a 'if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle' situation. Such an Me163 would be so different that it wouldn't be the Me163. Maybe something closer to the Volksjager.
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Actually, no. It would've been an even more simple than Lippisch P.15, that itself was an unbuilt spin-off from Me 163 per OTL.
model
 

Deleted member 1487

tomo pauk said:
Actually, no. It would've been an even more simple than Lippisch P.15, that itself was an unbuilt spin-off from Me 163 per OTL.
model
Click to expand...
Why wasn't it built though? A single engine fighter of the time has a serious problem of being very apt to have an engine malfunction and zero options other than bailing out.

Edit:
Seems it wasn't really an Me163 though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippisch_P.15
Alexander Lippisch designed it after inspecting the new Heinkel He 162 which he thought could be improved. The redesigned He 162 composed of the nose section of the Heinkel 162, the wings and tail of the Me 163C, a newly designed rear fuselage, and landing gear adapted from the Bf 109. Power was to be supplied by a single Heinkel HeS 011A turbojet contained within the rear fuselage, which was fed by two intakes buried in the wing roots.[1]
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Plus the HeS 011 engine was never in production.
 

tomo pauk

wiking said:
Why wasn't it built though? A single engine fighter of the time has a serious problem of being very apt to have an engine malfunction and zero options other than bailing out.
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In the time of interest, a pilot in a Bf 109 or Fw 190 has a serious problem of being trashed by P-51 or P-47.

Edit:
Seems it wasn't really an Me163 though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lippisch_P.15
Plus the HeS 011 engine was never in production.
Click to expand...

I seem to recall that I've suggested the Jumo 004 for the jet 163.
Phrase 'even more simple than P.15' still stands.
 

tomo pauk

Some advantages of the jet-powered fighter vs. the piston-engined fighter in later stages of ww2, apart from the obvious speed advantage:
It can use diesel fuel (important even more for Germany, since it is easier to come by and cheaper than hi-oct avgas); no propeller to make and install (= cheaper aircraft, one less item for pilot and ground crew to worry about, open field of fire for the armament); simple operation of engine (no multiple levers and gauges to and from the engine; easier for the pilot to operate); no torque reaction (important for low-time pilots); better view over the nose (important for deflection shot, taking off and landing).
Against a 2-engined fighter, it will be easier and cheaper to make, will use considerably less fuel, no need to train for asymetric thrust thus saving on pilot training. Easier, faster & cheaper to replace engines - important when engine life is 25 hours.
 

Deleted member 1487

tomo pauk said:
In the time of interest, a pilot in a Bf 109 or Fw 190 has a serious problem of being trashed by P-51 or P-47.
Click to expand...
Jet losses weren't much better.

tomo pauk said:
I seem to recall that I've suggested the Jumo 004 for the jet 163.
Phrase 'even more simple than P.15' still stands.
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Sure, which means you'll be losing a heap of aircraft to flame outs and other malfunctions (part of the reason the Me262 had two was to cope with the fact that the early engines had a horrible failure rate), while a single Jumo 004 is not going to generate a good enough thrust to produce significantly better speeds than the aforementioned Bf109 and Fw190. The P.15 required the Class II HeS 011, which was much higher powered than a Jumo 004 and larger. Sure you could make an improved Volksjager, but you'd need to identify the need first and make it while accepting the high loss rate of men and material that would come with that configuration.
 

tomo pauk

wiking said:
Jet losses weren't much better.
Click to expand...

Per OTL by late 1944, it is too late. The jet 163 can be around in winter of 1943/44.

Sure, which means you'll be losing a heap of aircraft to flame outs and other malfunctions (part of the reason the Me262 had two was to cope with the fact that the early engines had a horrible failure rate), while a single Jumo 004 is not going to generate a good enough thrust to produce significantly better speeds than the aforementioned Bf109 and Fw190. The P.15 required the Class II HeS 011, which was much higher powered than a Jumo 004 and larger. Sure you could make an improved Volksjager, but you'd need to identify the need first and make it while accepting the high loss rate of men and material that would come with that configuration.
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There was the Yak-15 post war, powered by the Jumo 004, good for 780 km/h. Smaller than Me 163, though not much of a wing sweep to help out with compressibility.
Need for a much better fighter was there already in 1942, one can't fight outnumbered by 3:1 on equal technological footing. A main reason why Germany went to jets in the 1st place. Luftwaffe have had experience with troublesome engines, from BMW 801 on. The Fw 190 still kicked rear ends before 1943.
 

Deleted member 1487

tomo pauk said:
There was the Yak-15 post war, powered by the Jumo 004, good for 780 km/h. Smaller than Me 163, though not much of a wing sweep to help out with compressibility.
Need for a much better fighter was there already in 1942, one can't fight outnumbered by 3:1 on equal technological footing. A main reason why Germany went to jets in the 1st place. Luftwaffe have had experience with troublesome engines, from BMW 801 on. The Fw 190 still kicked rear ends before 1943.
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Post-war developed Jumo 004s. And that produced a 435mph top speed, while in 1945 BF109s and Fw190s were already over 400mph. The Me262 was over 500mph. Why not go with the bigger twin engine aircraft that had a backup in case of flame out or engine failure?
 

tomo pauk

wiking said:
Post-war developed Jumo 004s. And that produced a 435mph top speed, while in 1945 BF109s and Fw190s were already over 400mph.
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Soviet-produced 004 was making about the same thrust as German - 900 kg force (~2000 lbf). On the Yak-15 it was enough for 786 km/h at altitude, 700 km/h at sea level. In 1944, Fw 190s and Bf 109s were lucky to achieve 680 km/h at altitude, 600 km/h at sea level.

The Me262 was over 500mph. Why not go with the bigger twin engine aircraft that had a backup in case of flame out or engine failure?
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I've partly covered that in post #8 here.
 

Peg Leg Pom

It was inspired by the ME 163 though. I think the DH 108's failings are indicative of what would have happened to the ME 163 as speeds increased. All the more so when you add in the stresses on an aircraft in combat.
 
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