WI the good guys had better songs?

carlton_bach · Feb 6, 2004

I admit I'm being semi-serious here, still:

I recently listened to one of those rare gem CDs, a compilation of Stalinist propaganda songs from East Germany. Scarily enough, I couldn't stop humming them for half the day. The same thing happened before with a few Nazi songs (much more embarrassingly, since people actually recognise those). As I look back it seems the bad guys had most of the good songs in the 20th century (pace, Woodie Guthrie, but even my favorite WWII numbers like 'Stalin wasn't Stallin' or 'The Fuhrer's Face' are lame compared to 'Red Wedding' or 'Berlin in August')

Do you think that had any appreciable effect, politically? I can definitely see rousing songs and memorable melodies playing a big role in transporting ideologies. What if democracy had a better soundtrack? What if the Reichsbanner had had an equivalent to 'Durch Gross-Berlin marschieren wir'?

Or do I just listen to the wrong kind of music?

Valamyr · Feb 6, 2004

Theres certainly no such thing as "listening to the wrong music", and more controversially, I might even say theres no such thing as good guys.

This being said, the impacts of a music-based POD on the world could only be important if the song was of earth-shattering importance to a large swath of people. Most national anthems, while great to sing on the right days, are not the stuff of revolutions.

This isn't to downplay music though. No "La Marseillaise" could have profound impact on the french revolution, as this was one of these earth-shattering songs that moved nations.

Since you were refering to the second half of the 20th century, though, I'd say that nowadays, the cult of music has largely been replaced by the cult of musicians. To make music play a significant political role, I think you simply need to have musical superstars who carry an heavy political message in their songs. The "peace and love" area for exemple was largely impacted by the "peace" message of the musicians of the time.

I might add that this kind of influence would target mainly the youth.

Van Owen · Feb 6, 2004

Horst Wessel Lied.....

That has to be one of the most rousing songs ever written, I have it saved somewhere on my computer. The United States could certainly use something like it!

Melvin Loh · Feb 7, 2004

Soviet anthem

Hey Carlton, I can relate to how you feel, my friend, since I had the same thing when I 1st listened to the Soviet national anthem when all the RED OCTOBER's crew started singing it during that scene in the movie, and also when it was played in ENEMY AT THE GATES when Vassily has that press conference conducted in his honour. I agree that such Soviet and Nazi songs sound much more stirring and memorable than their Western counterparts. After watching EATG, I actually donwloaded the Soviet anthem off the Net and started singing it as much as I could (thankfully, in this era of the Cold War being ended for more than a decade now).
The 1st verse:
Soyuz na-roshimi, respublik svobotnik
Splotila naveki valekiya russ
Strastvooyet sozdani voley narodna
Yedeeny moguchi syovyetsky soyuz

Still, I think that some of the older Western patriotic songs do have some sense of martialness and stirring quality in themselves, such as THE STAR-SPANGLED BANNER and GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.

Abdul Hadi Pasha · Feb 7, 2004

Maybe you feel that way because the only way you ever hear the National Anthem these days is in ersatz-gospel by some third-rate ex-Mouseketeer. Listen to it sunk by a chorus and think about WWII.

Melvin Loh · Feb 7, 2004

Being a non-American, I only hear the STAR-SPANGLED BANNER occasionally on TV during some particular prominent televised event. I reckon the Aust national anthem, ADVANCE AUST FAIR, is pretty cool too, although our national songs could do with a greater injection of the same martial stirring qualities as found in the Soviet national anthem.

carlton_bach · Feb 7, 2004

Well, I would not assume that any song would, by itself, change history, but I also think we should not underestimate the power of music to sway emotions. I mean, imagine any Hollywood movie without a soundtrack. In aggregate this could be a noticeable force.

The problem with most national anthems, IMO, is that they are rather solemn. I know that 'God Save the Queen' can hae great power, and so must 'The star-Spangled Banner' (though I've never heard that performed well, and only once observed any kind of crowd effect). The Soviet anthem is pretty good, too, but frankly, they ought to have kept the Internationale for sheer power. THat sounds good even if ten people in a bar sing it.

But I find it much harder to think of the kind of rousing, spirited songs that are the staple of Nazi and Communist fare. 'Land of Hope and Glory' or 'The Minstrel Boy' aren't exactly sing-along stuff. 'Rule Britannia' is far outside the vocal range of the average jingo bawler. 'Brueder zur Sonne, zur Freiheit' (antifascist, anticommunist social democrat war song of the Weimar era) might just qualify, but the words are so fancy. If you compare that to things like 'Krasniy Oktyabr' (I'm not sure of the spelling) or any of China's cultural revolution fighting songs it just doesn't come up.

On the other hand, the 'forces of democracy' (you realise I'm uasing the term 'good guys' and 'bad guys' in a very loose fashion, BTW?) tend to get enamored with songs that are stirring, but lack message. What exactly is the deeper meaning of 'It's a long way to Tipperary'? or 'Roll out the barrel'? THey did a pretty good job of rewriting the lyrics to 'Glory Hallelujah', I'll give you that, but AFAIK most soldiers still preferred their more robuist less elevated versions ("...trampled out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored..?" I mean, really)

I think western democracy missed out on a great instrument of swaying the masses. Of course, there'd be no end of troubly trying to implerment a program to co-opt and disseminate such songs. Maybe if they had been good enough to become popular by themselves?

Come to think of it, the Irish Republicans managed just that. You know, 'Boys of the old brigade', 'Town I loved so well', 'God save Ireland', 'The Shan Van Voght' etc ad inf.? Maybe that's the secret of the respect they're getting compared to eg. Basque separatists. Quick,who knows any good Orangeman songs

I don't think this is going anywhere, but the idea of an extremely popular singer or band in 30s Spain or Germany embracing liberal ideals, or a strong musical endorsement of Civil Rights in the 50s is still intriguing. Didn't someone write an AH storyabout something like this?

Diamond · Feb 7, 2004

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Maybe you feel that way because the only way you ever hear the National Anthem these days is in ersatz-gospel by some third-rate ex-Mouseketeer. Listen to it sunk by a chorus and think about WWII.

You won't hear any argument here.

I grow very weary of listening to an 'artist' mangle the anthem by trying to make it 'theirs'. Sickening.

Van Owen · Feb 8, 2004

Better Armed Forces Music Needed.....

Even our armed forces don't have great music. Case in point: The army's "Caisson Song" Sounds more like a marching tune for Cub Scouts than anything else. The Air Force and Marine Corps sound better, but still not all that martial. I've never even heard the *navy's--I'll take "Panzerlied" any day.

If you ask me, we should scrap all the current crappy armed forces songs, and hire AC/DC to do some real martial stuff for the armed forces. Maybe get new uniforms too--I understand Hugo Boss is still around? They could do wonders with black and silver.

Tyr · Feb 8, 2004

Evil people do like music, there was something on BBC2 last week about North Korea, they met some peopl who had escaped North Korea and settled in the south and the thing they said they missed was all the singing and dancing.
Britain has good patriotic songs I think, God Save the Queen isn't too good though some of the others are nifty.

MattRice · Feb 8, 2004

UK National Anthem

Do you honestly believe GOD SAVE THE QUEEN is stirring? I think RULE BRITANIA beats it hands down!

Melvin Loh said:
Hey Carlton, I can relate to how you feel, my friend, since I had the same thing when I 1st listened to the Soviet national anthem when all the RED OCTOBER's crew started singing it during that scene in the movie, and also when it was played in ENEMY AT THE GATES when Vassily has that press conference conducted in his honour. I agree that such Soviet and Nazi songs sound much more stirring and memorable than their Western counterparts. After watching EATG, I actually donwloaded the Soviet anthem off the Net and started singing it as much as I could (thankfully, in this era of the Cold War being ended for more than a decade now).
The 1st verse:
Soyuz na-roshimi, respublik svobotnik
Splotila naveki valekiya russ
Strastvooyet sozdani voley narodna
Yedeeny moguchi syovyetsky soyuz

Still, I think that some of the older Western patriotic songs do have some sense of martialness and stirring quality in themselves, such as THE STAR-SPANGLED BANNER and GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.

JoeDonut · Feb 8, 2004

A great version of the US National Anthem

If any of you are lucky enough to see a the Yankees have a home playoff game in person you will hear an excellent rendition of God Bless America. It is one of the few times that I heard it and was just amazed and felt great for having heard it. But I do agree that on a whole, most performers butcher the song and also the National Anthem

Melvin Loh · Feb 9, 2004

Armed forces songs

What about if GARRYOWEN was made into a more universal song for the US Army outside the 1st Cav Div and 7th Cav ? Undoubtedly Custer's regimental tune is the most catchy and stirring military song around. BTW I saw THE LAST SAMURAI yesterday, and whistled along to GARRY OWEN when the band played it at the point when Ahlgren's advertising the Winchester in Frisco. What about THE MINSTREL BOY too ? Would anybody favour incorporating that song as the Army's universal marching song ?

Also, I don't mind the US MARINE HYMN, "From the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli" and ANCHORS AWEIGH- both sufficicently catchy and stirring IMHO.

Linkwerk · Feb 9, 2004

I think a lot of this is due to the fact that really democratic governments never have really needed to mobilize huge popular support very often. Totalitarian states have more stirring music beacuse they are always trying to keep people in a really patriotic mood. If you look at the good US patriotic music, most of it was written during the Civil War, which was a time where the US government really needed to rally the populace. I think "battle cry of freedom" is a damn good patriotic song- one of the best.

Democractic music, however, seems to be more stirring beacuse of the context than the content. Rule Brittania, although good on it's own, is stirring mostly beacuse it brings up memories of all the pink bits on the globe and the Empire. The line in battle cry of freedom "and although he may be poor, not a man shall be a slave" means so much more when you know it's a civil war song.

In terms of totalitarian music, I think the reds have it over anybody else. I've noticed communist music tends to be more "optimistic" and "uplifting" sounding. (DDR national anthem, the internationale). I guess this is beacuse a lot of artist/songwriter types were attracted to socialist/communist ideas.

Fascist music, however- when not military in nature- never really strays far from the "pounding beat, overall wagnerian tone". This is great for sheer menace (panzerlied is a SCARY song), but isn't exactly going to inspire people about the Bright Shining Future.

(oh, and- can anybody find me that east german music? i'm dying to hear more of it)

Van Owen · Feb 9, 2004

I still think the military needs something else.....

Would one, "I'm going to kick your raggedy arse, have your women, and sell your kids on the street corner" song be so bad?

I've often wondered if a more martial/sinister appearence or reputation wouldn't help troops in certain deployments, like maybe postwar Iraq--the enemy needs to be more scared of them.

Anthony Appleyard · Feb 9, 2004

The US Marines Hymn seems to be quite a good wong.

carlton_bach · Feb 9, 2004

Linkwerk said:
In terms of totalitarian music, I think the reds have it over anybody else. I've noticed communist music tends to be more "optimistic" and "uplifting" sounding. (DDR national anthem, the internationale). I guess this is beacuse a lot of artist/songwriter types were attracted to socialist/communist ideas.

So it seems. It may have something to do with the imagery they use as a basis as well, but really, a lot of Communist songs just make you feel plain good. They can be pretty silly ("...a song is sounding from the Moldova to the Spree, a dove is flying from the Hrajin, to the proud builders of stalin Avenue..."), but if you were part of those 'proud builders' I guess that still felt great. As a small aside, in west Germany, bewtween 1970 and 1990, East German children's songs were very popular, outselling even traditional ones in many quarters. Kids grew up to 'Der Baggerführer Willibald', a cheerful 'Bob the Builder' type song about how a building worker starts thinking, kicks out his boss and builds homes for the people and a collective swimming pool. I was 13 by the time I figured out that bit of fond childhood memory.

Fascist music, however- when not military in nature- never really strays far from the "pounding beat, overall wagnerian tone". This is great for sheer menace (panzerlied is a SCARY song), but isn't exactly going to inspire people about the Bright Shining Future.

Yeah, but it sure makes you feel powerful in the here and now. I mean, if I had the choice I'd still go for Communist music over Fascist one, but "Bomben auf Polenland" makes a good soundtrack for victory. Of course, the Nazi music industry sucked at light entertainment ;-)

(oh, and- can anybody find me that east german music? i'm dying to hear more of it)

The only recording I know of that you might have a chance of getting your hands on is:

J.G. Reissmüller (vocals) & H. Klein (piano): Uns gefällt diese WElt, Lieder der frühen DDR (We like this world; songs of the early GDR). THis was recorded in 1999 by Biton Studios, Frankfurt (catalogue # 4007). I also got a four-LP album 'History of German Proletarian Song' made in East Berlin in 1962, but that's a collector's item by now.

I'll go looking for some websites. There should be some.

carlton_bach · Feb 9, 2004

Linkwerk said:
(oh, and- can anybody find me that east german music? i'm dying to hear more of it)

Do you read German? The best I could come up with is:

http://www.blueplane.de/DDRLieder/

(some MIDI files, lyrics, and CD retailers)

Oh, and what in *&$$§ is up with the quote function on this forum? Once again, most of what I wrote ended up integrated into the quote...

zoomar · Feb 9, 2004

My opinion (based entirely on my prejudices, I know) is that totalitarian music, architecture and to some extent graphic arts, are so poweful reflects the fact that these states use these art forms to advance simple, often violent, ideals. The art is simple, direct, non-abstract in the modern art sense, and appeals to the masses. Music is martial, stirring, and heroic in scope - or it harkens to simple folk traditions. Architecture is focused on massive structures which glorify the state or nation and downplay individual tastes. Art is frankly representational and has the purpose of supporting common social values or goals, not the vision of individual artists. It's probably no accident that the "Imperial March" is the single most popular tune in Star Wars, that the Soviet Anthem or the Horst Wessel Lied still sound pretty cool, and that Carl Orff's Carmina Burana, Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky, and Shostakovich's symphonies are the most commonly performed 20th century classical music, even in liberal democratic societies.

I have a Jewish musician friend who owns a rare 1930's copy of a Nazi Party songbook, and often plays them on the piano - not because he is a Nazi but because he appreciates good, powerful, and simple music, whatever its source and purpose.

Mr_ Bondoc · Feb 9, 2004

I Beg To Differ...

The music of the twentieth century should ably demonstrate that the "good guys" had a superior advantage over the "bad guys" (Communism, Fascism). Consider in WWII, the Axis failed miserably in its attempts to ban the "race music" of American swing and jazz. Consider the music of Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, and others, which was popular amongst the underground resistance movements of Europe. In 1942, Joseph Goebbels, sensing a threat to Nazi propoganda, ordered the manufacture of anti-Semitic and racist versions of swing classics. Fortunately, almost every self-respecting jazz music afficianado considered the jazz renditions as popular as Vanilla Ice is to the modern hip hop community. In the Cold War, the works of Elvis Presley and the Beatles became a source of frustration for the forces of McCarthyism and Communism. Consider the fact that when communist censors in East Germanty and Yugoslavia tried to rework the Beatles classics "Penny Lane" and "Can't Buy Me Love" into communist propoganda against capitalism, most music fans complained loudly enough to have officials drop th eplan.