How much time does it buy the Germans in Tunis? How much does it hold off the landings of Sicily?
WI The Germans Take Malta?
- Thread starter Dunning Kruger
- Start date
Deleted member 1487
I don't think it buys much time in Tunisia, but make evacuation much more easy and losses significantly lower. This then make Sicily a tougher target due to more experienced Axis manpower being available there. Add in the delay needed to take Malta and you probably gain at least 2 months before Husky could be launched, which changes all sorts of things.
Sicily needs to be taken before Sicily could be invaded; the Western part of the island is too fortified to take and use its ports, so the Eastern/Southern route is needed, which means taking Malta. You cannot invade while Malta is an outpost to attack and observe the invasion fleet.
Hm, if Husky is delayed 2 months, then probably von Manstein would get his wish with pressing home the Zitadelle offensive. The Southern pincer hadn't exactly broken through, but it had pierced the prepared defence zone and won a what is now recognized as a rather stunning victory at Prokhorovka. Could this delay have improved German fortunes on the Eastern front during the autumn of 1943 somewhat?
Deleted member 1487
Perhaps Hitler would allow Manstein to continue, but demonstrations on the Mius River were drawing some attention there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...n_Sicily_and_Termination_of_Operation_Citadel
Without Sicily I think you're right that the offensive would go on for longer, but the long term effects were IMHO probably minimal for the Eastern Front. Soviet reserves would be more attritted, but so would the German forces. Not sure how this affects the 3rd Kharkov or Belgorod battles, but having the intact SS Panzer Corps certainly doesn't hurt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/II_SS_Panzer_Corps#Kursk_-_Italy_-_Yugoslavia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgorod-Khar'kov_Offensive_Operation
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Изюм-Барвенковская_наступательная_операция
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Миус-...83.D1.81-.D1.84.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.BD.D1.82.D0.B0
Before anyone just writes off Malta in late 1940 - what defences did they have in place on the island?
At the beginning of the war it was an Infantry Brigade + Maltese units as well as numerous artillery units and by the time of the cancelled Op Hercules in 42 it was a reinforced division + Maltese units and the various Artillery Batteries.
So in 1940 - dropping a regiment of Paras onto the island followed up with what ever passes for an Italian amphibious landing is not going to cut it.
Benni was prepared to pay 1000 lives to sit at the big table.
However as it was they had suffered staggering losses in the latter half 1940 to both the Greeks during the Greco-Italian War and the British Commonwealth during the 'Invasion of Egypt' and ran the risk of both campaigns turning into disasters (both were to require German intervention).
I think having the foresight to attack Malta in 1940 or even having the capability to do so if they did is a long shot at this time.
Both Airborne ops and Amphibious operations where in their infancy at this time and both types of operation would be subject to disaster for much of the war.
Any such unit even remotely capable of such craft in the Italian OOB in late 1940 would be needed elsewhere at this time for much greater prizes than Malta.
At the beginning of the war it was an Infantry Brigade + Maltese units as well as numerous artillery units and by the time of the cancelled Op Hercules in 42 it was a reinforced division + Maltese units and the various Artillery Batteries.
So in 1940 - dropping a regiment of Paras onto the island followed up with what ever passes for an Italian amphibious landing is not going to cut it.
Benni was prepared to pay 1000 lives to sit at the big table.
However as it was they had suffered staggering losses in the latter half 1940 to both the Greeks during the Greco-Italian War and the British Commonwealth during the 'Invasion of Egypt' and ran the risk of both campaigns turning into disasters (both were to require German intervention).
I think having the foresight to attack Malta in 1940 or even having the capability to do so if they did is a long shot at this time.
Both Airborne ops and Amphibious operations where in their infancy at this time and both types of operation would be subject to disaster for much of the war.
Any such unit even remotely capable of such craft in the Italian OOB in late 1940 would be needed elsewhere at this time for much greater prizes than Malta.
1. How difficult would it be for the Allies to take Malta from the Axis?
2. After losing paratroopers and other specialists, Sicily can still be done right away?
3. Anything that continues Kursk longer means the Germans lose worse in the East. The USSR simply had too many reserves and the battle was unwinnable. Such a delay actually works against the axis.
Not a lot. Most of the interdiction of the Axis supply ships and aircraft came from the airfields the Allies developed in western Tunisia. Those airfields had a far larger capacity than Malta.
I the Allied leaders think it really is a problem they may take the Joint Chiefs original proposal and land in Sardinia, & then Corsica instead of Sicily. That out flanks Sicily in regards to Italy. From Corsica & Sardinia Allied medium bombers and fighters dominated northern Italy from the start of 1944. Secure those two islands in July vs November & the Axis have a much tougher time in the Italian air space. With nearby air support a subsequent landing near Rome is practical.
As stated, Axis Supply in Africa is much easier, but not totally as most British Subs based elsewhere. I don't think this changes things too much. Real change in the Med would have required an invasion of turkey or someone giving it higher priority.
True, but Italy is still in the war quite a few months more and there is the chance of disaster (i.e. a worse Anzio). Obviously, if the Axis have Malta, it isn't addition by subtraction for the Allies.
You got in before me - attacking Sardinia avoids going around Malta, it may not secure the shipping in the Med., but moves the 'front-line' behind the Axis in Malta and Sicily.
Deleted member 1487
That's the thing, taking Sicily is a much more useful objective; Sardinia and Corsica lack the necessary infrastructure to embark an invasion of Italy and really are only useful as bomber/fighter bases; that's an important objective though in its own right, but a far less immediately useful one given how the Germans wrecked the ports there pretty thoroughly. Its less helpful in that it leaves Italy in the war and allows the Axis to really prepare Sicily against invasion, while if the British make a move in the Aegean like IOTL their bloody nose there will make it clear Sicily is the only really obtainable objective for Wallies.
Remember Anzio embarked from Naples, so any invasion would require Sicily first and then bases in Italy itself before moving for a landing further north even with air support from Corsica.
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Sardinia and Corsica initially lack the infrastructure to support large operation, but they can play a hell of a role in tying down troops, being as they are, in a position to threaten half the French and Italian coasts, from Toulon right around to Rome, and that's in addition to forcing the Axis to try to hold Sicily.
Admiral Beez
Banned
Invading and holding Malta presents a good role for the KM's larger surface units. You'd need to get S&G into the Med somehow.
Deleted member 1487
Why when the entire Italian fleet is in the Med.? The lack of fuel is a bigger concern.
Sorry to quote myself but my question stands - what did the Axis have in the latter half of 1940 that could be used for this operation that did not have more important tasks elsewhere? or were not recovering from those tasks?
Deleted member 1487
Everything. They had just fought in France with a fraction of their forces and had not attacked anywhere else yet; they had the means, just not the will.
I take it you are referring to the Italians?
Right so they have what a parachute regiment/Brigade in 1940?
What Amphibious assets and 'Marine' troops do they posses in 1940?
They apparently have a recently expanded San Marco Regiment (Recently expanded from 1 to 2 Battalions)
I am trying to imagine a realistic Italian orbat for an Invasion of Malta in the period July - Sept 1940?
At the moment I have the Italians with 3 Airborne Battalions with very little experience (having started forming about a year previously with 2 companies having conducted a light assault in April 1940) but probably good quality soldiers and 2 Marine Battalions of which 1 battalions worth represent some of the best soldiers in the Italian Army at that time.
What else do they have at this time?
I put it to you that they had nether the will or the means!
I agree, Malta is pretty lousy terrain and an opposed amphibious assault is probably the hardest military operation to pull off. Unless the attacking force is well prepared it can get hosed up pretty easily. Witness the first attempt at Wake Island.