WI: The genders of Henry VIII's children are flipped.

[ordinarylittleme]

Henry, the only son of Henry VIII and his first wife Katherine of Aragon, who was born in 1516 and is the apple of his parents' eyes. He is devoutly Catholic, and a hot ticket in the European marriage market, though was never married off for some reason or another. However, when his parents fall out of love and his father becomes interested in breaking away from the church, causing an irreparable rift between father and son, causing a new child to be born...

Thomas, the only son of Henry VIII with his second wife Anne Boleyn. Seventeen years younger than Henry, born in 1533, he is a bright boy who is put off of marriage forever after his mother was executed when he was young, due to his new interest in his wife's maid, Jane Seymour. They marry after Anne's funeral and she gives birth to...

Margery, born four years after Thomas. Henry dotes on his little sister, being more like a father than a brother, even though he is being persecuted due to his religious beliefs and loyalty to his deceased mother. Unfortunately the birth of this girl was so brutal that Jane passed away. Henry VIII remarried three more times but never had more children.

What changes?

 

[Elfwine]

Assuming Henry VIII dies at the same point as OTL, Henry of ? (Henry IX) is only around thirty-one when he becomes king - with any luck at all he has at least as long before him as OTL Mary I (possibly more), and a pretty good chance of having children of his own.

If he does have children (Henry VII didn't seem to have problems with it, so far as guessing on Tudor genes), I'd wager on the union of England and Scotland being put off a few generations.

No Queen Jane in this timeline, at least not as queen regnant.

English Catholicism probably gets a boost from Henry IX, too.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Assuming Henry VIII dies at the same point as OTL, Henry of ? (Henry IX) is only around thirty-one when he becomes king - with any luck at all he has at least as long before him as OTL Mary I (possibly more), and a pretty good chance of having children of his own.

If he does have children (Henry VII didn't seem to have problems with it, so far as guessing on Tudor genes), I'd wager on the union of the Crowns being put off a few generations.

No Queen Jane in this timeline, at least not as queen regnant.

English Catholicism probably gets a boost from Henry IX, too.

Henry IX (Mary IOTL) will likely marry Philip II's sister Maria of Austria, or perhaps Madeleine of Valois, IOTL the wife of James V. Thomas (Elizabeth IOTL) is allowed to become a cardinal (since he won't be king but doesn't want to marry) once Henry IX has a son. Jane Grey, if queen, is only as wife of Henry IX's first son.

 

[FalconHonour]

Henry is not breaking with Rome as long as Henry survives. Nor is he divorcing Katherine of Aragon, so he's only marrying again if she dies. Which is plausible. The Sweat could get her in 1528.

But I don't think Anne Boleyn would be his second wife. She'll have married Henry Percy or Jamie Butler. So Thomas is having a different mother. I think a foreign Princess is most likely, but, if you want a Boleyn, Mary would work. She'll be widowed by the sweat too, after all.

And Margery would be Mary/Elizabeth. Maybe Katherine, Cecily or Bridget. But I don't see cocksure Henry VIII choosing a name from his wife's family over one from his own.

 

[Ivan Lupo]

I think Henry would have a hell of a lot more illegitimate children. Are we gender-switching any of the existing ones?

I'm sure Henry and Katherine would both fret about not being able to have another son, with a current healthy heir running around, maybe their love lives remain active with one another. Henry would continue his habit of taking mistresses whenever Katherine is pregnant, and probably takes up more when it becomes more clear that Katherine probably won't conceive again, but at least they have a surviving son. Maybe Katherine could even give birth to some surviving daughters later on. So let's say she dies in 1528, she dies as the much loved, loyal, and courageous consort of the king and mother of the future king, keeping the succession stable for another generation.

Maybe then he takes Anne Boleyn as a 2nd wife, marrying out of love and really just raising eyebrows by marrying one of his subjects. Anne is headstrong, but she probably doesn't dare try to push any potential Protestant ideas on Mr. Defender of the Faith. But she gives birth to a son, probably called Edward after Henry's grandfather.

Wrangling butterflies here so that Henry can get to wife three, Anne dies tragically following a miscarriage. Henry is twice widowed and twice brokenhearted, but he finds comfort in Jane Seymour. Nobody bats an eye, they just want their sad king to be happy again. She gives birth to a daughter, Elizabeth, but dies in childbirth.

Henry vows never to marry or fall in love again after having his heart torn to shreds three different times. He dotes on all his children. Henry is raised to be a loyal and most Catholic king, marries Margaret of France. Edward marries his younger cousin Mary Queen of Scots. Elizabeth becomes the second wife of Philip II.

Or something like that.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Any chance of a Spanish match somehow including the Netherlands as a dowry?

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Henry is not breaking with Rome as long as Henry survives. Nor is he divorcing Katherine of Aragon, so he's only marrying again if she dies. Which is plausible. The Sweat could get her in 1528.

But I don't think Anne Boleyn would be his second wife. She'll have married Henry Percy or Jamie Butler. So Thomas is having a different mother. I think a foreign Princess is most likely, but, if you want a Boleyn, Mary would work. She'll be widowed by the sweat too, after all.

And Margery would be Mary/Elizabeth. Maybe Katherine, Cecily or Bridget. But I don't see cocksure Henry VIII choosing a name from his wife's family over one from his own.

We are flipping the genders of his children, so the mothers are the same lol. Mary Boleyn will NOT be his second wife, can you imagine him marrying the ex mistress of his rival Francis? Anne can be the second wife if she is widowed at the right time. Also, not divorcing Katherine does not mean he will not break with Rome. He had a bad relationship with Charles V who was holding the pope hostage at the time. Also we are assuming that Jane named the child. After all IOTL her son was named after her brother, Edward Seymour.

 

[isabella]

@ordinarylittleme Jane’s OTL son was named after King Edward IV aka Henry VIII’s maternal grandfather

 

[ordinarylittleme]

@ordinarylittleme Jane’s OTL son was named after King Edward IV aka Henry VIII’s maternal grandfather

Ah OK, either way it works, who do we think Henry will marry his children off to if he could?

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I think Henry would have a hell of a lot more illegitimate children. Are we gender-switching any of the existing ones?

I'm sure Henry and Katherine would both fret about not being able to have another son, with a current healthy heir running around, maybe their love lives remain active with one another. Henry would continue his habit of taking mistresses whenever Katherine is pregnant, and probably takes up more when it becomes more clear that Katherine probably won't conceive again, but at least they have a surviving son. Maybe Katherine could even give birth to some surviving daughters later on. So let's say she dies in 1528, she dies as the much loved, loyal, and courageous consort of the king and mother of the future king, keeping the succession stable for another generation.

Maybe then he takes Anne Boleyn as a 2nd wife, marrying out of love and really just raising eyebrows by marrying one of his subjects. Anne is headstrong, but she probably doesn't dare try to push any potential Protestant ideas on Mr. Defender of the Faith. But she gives birth to a son, probably called Edward after Henry's grandfather.

Wrangling butterflies here so that Henry can get to wife three, Anne dies tragically following a miscarriage. Henry is twice widowed and twice brokenhearted, but he finds comfort in Jane Seymour. Nobody bats an eye, they just want their sad king to be happy again. She gives birth to a daughter, Elizabeth, but dies in childbirth.

Henry vows never to marry or fall in love again after having his heart torn to shreds three different times. He dotes on all his children. Henry is raised to be a loyal and most Catholic king, marries Margaret of France. Edward marries his younger cousin Mary Queen of Scots. Elizabeth becomes the second wife of Philip II.

Or something like that.

Sure, flip Fitzroy into Elizabeth Tailboys if you prefer lol. That's the only one he recognized anyway

 

[Marion]

We are flipping the genders of his children, so the mothers are the same lol. Mary Boleyn will NOT be his second wife, can you imagine him marrying the ex mistress of his rival Francis? Anne can be the second wife if she is widowed at the right time. Also, not divorcing Katherine does not mean he will not break with Rome. He had a bad relationship with Charles V who was holding the pope hostage at the time. Also we are assuming that Jane named the child. After all IOTL her son was named after her brother, Edward Seymour.

I mean the reason he and Charles had such a bad relationship was because of how he treated Katherine, now that she has given him his much desired son and heir there is no way he would ever try to devorce her and has little to no reason to split from the church since he doesn’t need to get an annulmen.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I mean the reason he and Charles had such a bad relationship was because of how he treated Katherine, now that she has given him his much desired son and heir there is no way he would ever try to devorce her and has little to no reason to split from the church since he doesn’t need to get an annulment.

Before Henry and Katherine divorced, he was active rivals with Charles and Francis in alternate times. He will never divorce Katherine as long as their son and heir lives. But this does not stop him from breaking with Rome if he starts being influenced by reformers/Protestants, though this is unlikely as he is after all "defender of the faith".

 

[rgroberts]

There's no way Henry would break with the Church if he had the son he wanted. IOTL he didn't have much time for reformers; the Henrican Church was "Catholicism minus the Pope" with some very small exceptions. Anne might convince him to allow bibles in English and Cromwell might get him to suppress some corrupt monasteries, but those are things that other solidly Catholic monarchs did without the Pope squeaking too loudly.

If Henry stays married to KOA, he's absolutely staying Catholic. That doesn't mean he can't marry Anne Boleyn as a second wife, just that she'd have to keep a lid on her reformer tendencies. Marrying domestically for a second wife once widowed--and when he already had an heir--probably wouldn't turn too many heads, anyway. It also means that while Cromwell will probably rise due to sheer competence, Cramner will likely remain a nobody (since here he isn't called upon to give an academic/church view on Henry/Katherine's marriage, which was his stepping stone into being Henry's tame Archbishop of Canterbury). Speaking of churchmen, Wolsey might live longer/hold onto power longer, too, without the Great Matter.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Any chance of a Spanish match somehow including the Netherlands as a dowry?

For who?

 

[ordinarylittleme]

There's no way Henry would break with the Church if he had the son he wanted. IOTL he didn't have much time for reformers; the Henrican Church was "Catholicism minus the Pope" with some very small exceptions. Anne might convince him to allow bibles in English and Cromwell might get him to suppress some corrupt monasteries, but those are things that other solidly Catholic monarchs did without the Pope squeaking too loudly.

If Henry stays married to KOA, he's absolutely staying Catholic. That doesn't mean he can't marry Anne Boleyn as a second wife, just that she'd have to keep a lid on her reformer tendencies. Marrying domestically for a second wife once widowed--and when he already had an heir--probably wouldn't turn too many heads, anyway. It also means that while Cromwell will probably rise due to sheer competence, Cramner will likely remain a nobody (since here he isn't called upon to give an academic/church view on Henry/Katherine's marriage, which was his stepping stone into being Henry's tame Archbishop of Canterbury). Speaking of churchmen, Wolsey might live longer/hold onto power longer, too, without the Great Matter.

Wolsey living longer is not guaranteed as he died of illness which won't be butterflied away because the king isn't getting a divorce. But he will definitely hold onto power longer. Anne with her reformist politics will definitely at least fight for English bibles and fighting the corruption of monasteries, perhaps she is the "Katherine Parr" in this scenario.

 

[GrandMaster]

As he has a surviving male son from Catherine of Aragon in this timeline, there is no incentive for King Henry VIII to divorce her.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

If mary were a boy he would never divorce Katherine and split with Rome.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

As he has a surviving male son from Catherine of Aragon in this timeline, there is no incentive for King Henry VIII to divorce her.

I didn't say he divorced her. I said he becomes interested in breaking away with the church, causing an irreparable rift between himself, his wife and his son. Then Katherine dies, and he remarries to Anne Boleyn

 

[ranichi17]

Wolsey living longer is not guaranteed as he died of illness which won't be butterflied away because the king isn't getting a divorce. But he will definitely hold onto power longer. Anne with her reformist politics will definitely at least fight for English bibles and fighting the corruption of monasteries, perhaps she is the "Katherine Parr" in this scenario.

KP minus wiggling out of the charges against her, if we want Edward (who is probably Elizabeth) to exist.

I didn't say he divorced her. I said he becomes interested in breaking away with the church, causing an irreparable rift between himself, his wife and his son. Then Katherine dies, and he remarries to Anne Boleyn

Why would it interest him if it serves no real purpose? Remember this is the man who famously had a word war with Luther, even after he separated from Rome too.

 

[hanoverians]

I didn't say he divorced her. I said he becomes interested in breaking away with the church, causing an irreparable rift between himself, his wife and his son. Then Katherine dies, and he remarries to Anne Boleyn

IMO, it's infinitely more likely for him to break away from the church after marrying Anne Boleyn and not before (but even then, I highly doubt that he would do it here). So, if he does for some reason break away from the church here, it would probably be a rift just between him and his son, without Katherine involved. But, again, highly unlikely Henry will ever consider breaking away from Rome. England's definitely staying predominantly Catholic ITTL unless one of Henry's grandchildren takes an interest in reform once their reign begins.