WI - The F-86 Sabre was not built, or not built on time for the Korean War?

[ric350]

Much like the Spitfire/Bf-109 matchup in the BoB, the F-86/MiG-15 matchup in the Korean War was so close technically, it often came down to ambush and/or pilot vs pilot.
However what if the North American brass could not be convinced to abandon the original straight wing design so late in the design phase, resulting in the cancellation of the aircraft (as there was little performance difference to the P-80 and P-84 designs) . Would the MiGs have ruled the skies over Korea, curtailing, or even preventing, any effective UN bombing campaigns? What would be the ramifications to the ground war?

ric350

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The USN's F9 Panther's maintained a superior kill rate over the Mig 15 proving that the determining factor was pilot training. Also there were never enough Migs to gain control of the air and they were restricted to staying close to the Yalu river to avoid the risk of their pilots being captured and found to be Soviets. So while the bombing campaign would have suffered greater losses it would have continued with much the same results.

 

[Nick P]

USAF send more F-51s to take up the fighter gap. They might bring back the Mighty Jug (P-47/F-47) as it could take more punishment.

The RAAF, RAF and Fleet Air Arm send more Meteors and Vampires and Sea Furies to Korea to make up the numbers. Same effect on the Migs, possibly a few more Allied losses.

 

[jlckansas]

You also had F2H Banshees of the USN available, and the F84 wasn't bad and the F84 was being upgraded continuously. You might have Vought look at an upgrade to F6U Pirate of some kind to help it out.

 

[DougM]

The prblem is once again.. why is it not. built or ready in time? The swept wing design was by that point an obvious improvement so SOMEONE is building a swept wing fight at that point.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

This is roughly what the P86 Sabre would have been without the change to swept wings. There'd be some fairly minor differences due to the lack of carrier equipment but it gives a fair idea of what the USAF would be working with.

North American FJ-1 Fury - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The prblem is once again.. why is it not. built or ready in time? The swept wing design was by that point an obvious improvement so SOMEONE is building a swept wing fight at that point.

Get the version with the proven, conventional design into service quickly and then work on the more advanced version to work out all the bugs before putting it into production.

 

[PhilKearny]

Much like the Spitfire/Bf-109 matchup in the BoB, the F-86/MiG-15 matchup in the Korean War was so close technically, it often came down to ambush and/or pilot vs pilot.
However what if the North American brass could not be convinced to abandon the original straight wing design so late in the design phase, resulting in the cancellation of the aircraft (as there was little performance difference to the P-80 and P-84 designs) . Would the MiGs have ruled the skies over Korea, curtailing, or even preventing, any effective UN bombing campaigns? What would be the ramifications to the ground war?

ric350

The USAF already had the B-47 flying in December 1947, so they’d certainly want a fighter that keep up with that.

 

[njslim]

Much like the Spitfire/Bf-109 matchup in the BoB, the F-86/MiG-15 matchup in the Korean War was so close technically, it often came down to ambush and/or pilot vs pilot.
However what if the North American brass could not be convinced to abandon the original straight wing design so late in the design phase, resulting in the cancellation of the aircraft (as there was little performance difference to the P-80 and P-84 designs) . Would the MiGs have ruled the skies over Korea, curtailing, or even preventing, any effective UN bombing campaigns? What would be the ramifications to the ground war?

ric350

MIG 15 was designed as bomber interceptor , armed with 2 23mm cannon (80 round/gun) and 1 37 mm (40 round/ gun) Both relatively low velocity which meant a highly curved trajectory. This proved difficult to aim at fast maneuvering fighter combats American planes had a computing gun sight which compensated for factors like speed altitude temperature Also pilot skill played a role in the kill ratio

In 1952 two F9F from USS ORISKANY (CV 34) took on 7 Migs flown by Russian pilots over Sea of Japan shooting down 4 for 1 F9F damaged

Panther vs. MiG — Inside the Cold War Dogfight That Officially Never Happened - MilitaryHistoryNow.com

“For decades, the entire incident remained shrouded in mystery.” By Marc Liebman BY NOVEMBER 1952, the air and ground war in Korea had been raging for two years and five months. The People’s Republic of...

militaryhistorynow.com

 

[RandomChance]

Looked at some options beyond the US.

The UK had the Supermarine Swift and Hawker Hunter in development, but they wouldn’t be available until ‘54.

The Dassault Ouragon is early enough and although officially considered a fighter bomber, it did hold its own with the Israelis against Mig-15 in the Suez crisis. The Mystere first flew in ‘51, but wouldn’t see service until ‘54.

 

[Michel Van]

So F-86 is delay or worst canceled,
What let for USAF as Option ?

The F-84 was no match for Mig-15 and USAF lost over 249 F-84 in Korea war, 152 from them by accidents not combat.
F-94 was modernised P-80 no match for Mig-15,
The F-100 undergoes testing not yet ready until 1953.

This left USAF with option to use Navy fighters: F3H Demon, F2H Banshee, F9F Panther
predating use of F-4 Phantom as USAF/US Navy fighter in 1960s.

 

[PhilKearny]

So F-86 is delay or worst canceled,
What let for USAF as Option ?

The F-84 was no match for Mig-15 and USAF lost over 249 F-84 in Korea war, 152 from them by accidents not combat.
F-94 was modernised P-80 no match for Mig-15,
The F-100 undergoes testing not yet ready until 1953.

This left USAF with option to use Navy fighters: F3H Demon, F2H Banshee, F9F Panther
predating use of F-4 Phantom as USAF/US Navy fighter in 1960s.

The McDonnell XF-88 would be an option. If there was no F-86, then presumably the USAF would've given a higher priority to the penetration fighter program that the XF-88 won. Without an F-86, then it would seem likely that the XF-88 would have continued into production rather than be cancelled.

North American's XF-93 might also go into production. However, as the XF-93 was derived from the F-86, would XF-93 exist? There's also the Lockheed F-94. It's overweight due to being overbuilt, but it certainly looks sleek.

Also, without a swept-wing F-86 Saber, what would Republic do? How would the absence of a swept-wing Saber affect the development of the swept-wing F-84? Would it have no effect? Or, instead, might the lack of a competitor drive Republic to fill the void by producing their own swept-version of the F-84 earlier? Or would the lack of the Saber as a competitor result in Republic easing off in the development of the Thunderstreak and Thunderflash variants of the F-84?

 

[ric350]

The MiG-15 did have issues with 23/37 mixed armament, but it was designed to shoot down B-29s, hence the 37mm cannon. Plus with that 37mm you only had to hit once. The MiGs would have had easy work boom&zooming any UN bomber (particularly B-29s) heading North.
AFAIK any other UN fighter that tangled with MiG-17s usually had it ass handed to it. With the possible exception of turning circle, the UN didn’t have an other operational fighter that could touch the MiG at those operational parameters, except for the F-86 (and just barely).
Yeah I read about William’s encounter, but lopsided victories like that are extreme exceptions. It’s like saying the Bf-109 was the best fighter of WW2 because Hartmann got 352 kills in it, or the Hurricane was a better fighter than the Spitfire because it shot down more planes during the BoB.
I’m wondering if the ground war would have taken a drastically different turn if the MiGs had air superiority.

ric350

 

[jlckansas]

Corsairs and Skyraiders were doing most of the Heavy lifting for the Navy and Marines ground support and either one could hold their own against a MIG 15. MiG15 were not made to dogfight with those at the altitude they flew at in close air support and would not come off the winner with the pilots they had.

 

[Gunnarnz]

I’m wondering if the ground war would have taken a drastically different turn if the MiGs had air superiority.

Only if they can do something with it. The North AFAIK wasn't really set up for bombing or to make use of air power, so the best they could do would be prevent UN aircraft interfering with ground ops. That's not insignificant, but how often was air power decisive in Korea?

 

[Pangur]

USAF send more F-51s to take up the fighter gap. They might bring back the Mighty Jug (P-47/F-47) as it could take more punishment.

The RAAF, RAF and Fleet Air Arm send more Meteors and Vampires and Sea Furies to Korea to make up the numbers. Same effect on the Migs, possibly a few more Allied losses.

The Meteors? Dont know about them as fighters. The RAAF flew them as fighters early in the war and it went so badly that they got out of the fighter game

 

[Gunnarnz]

The Meteors? Dont know about them as fighters. The RAAF flew them as fighters early in the war and it went so badly that they got out of the fighter game

It was worse than that. The Meteors were revealed as absolutely not up to the job against the Mig-15s, which had major effects for NATO deterrence as a whole. Apparently they did okay in ground attack roles, though.

 

[PMN1]

It was worse than that. The Meteors were revealed as absolutely not up to the job against the Mig-15s, which had major effects for NATO deterrence as a whole.

The UK supplying the USSR with engines did have some positive side effects..........

 

[Pangur]

It was worse than that. The Meteors were revealed as absolutely not up to the job against the Mig-15s, which had major effects for NATO deterrence as a whole. Apparently they did okay in ground attack roles, though.

Which right enough is what 77 Sqd did afterwards and did well

 

[njslim]

It was worse than that. The Meteors were revealed as absolutely not up to the job against the Mig-15s, which had major effects for NATO deterrence as a whole. Apparently they did okay in ground attack roles, though.

The aircraft was in RAF service for some 40 years , up into the 1980's! Though noncombat as a target tug and other duties .....