WI - The British army re-armed rationally

[sharlin]

The 6lber armed machines are brand new, there's not many of 'em and I am trying to stop this from being a case of "Do you want it on the face UK? Well..do ya?" so there may be reactions overseas, there may not. German intel may not know about the new british tanks (we all know how good German spies were in the war..) or they may and could be pressing for 50mm gunned Panzer III's. No schmalturn Panzer IV's with L-100 75mm guns please.

 

[Ian Hathaway]

The 6lber armed machines are brand new, there's not many of 'em and I am trying to stop this from being a case of "Do you want it on the face UK? Well..do ya?" so there may be reactions overseas, there may not. German intel may not know about the new british tanks (we all know how good German spies were in the war..) or they may and could be pressing for 50mm gunned Panzer III's. No schmalturn Panzer IV's with L-100 75mm guns please.

On this point does anyone have a list with dates of any military missions to Britain of either the Germans or Soviets during the 30s. I think that it would be the doctrine rather than the technology that would be the most interesting to a foreign power during this time. A change to the way the Brits were deploying and organising units might bring the biggest butterflies.

 

[pedmore1202]

Not sure about the 1930's, but I do know the Germans did observe several tests of the EAF during the 2 years it was in operation, so they could easily have kept monitoring the development of the CAB's during the early 1930's (before Hitler came to power) and have designed their own Panzer Armies around the tactics and doctrine of the CAB's.

The French and American's also monitored the trial's (IIRC) so they could also, having realised the potential of the formation, be slowly developing their own. (By 1939, the French may have 1 CAB, due to a slower acceptance of the concept)

 

[Reader347]

German intel may not know about the new british tanks (we all know how good German spies were in the war..) or they may and could be pressing for 50mm gunned Panzer III's.

>
>
>
German intel may know but that doesn't mean the information has gotten to the tank crews.

 

[Garrison]

The 6lber armed machines are brand new, there's not many of 'em and I am trying to stop this from being a case of "Do you want it on the face UK? Well..do ya?" so there may be reactions overseas, there may not. German intel may not know about the new british tanks (we all know how good German spies were in the war..) or they may and could be pressing for 50mm gunned Panzer III's. No schmalturn Panzer IV's with L-100 75mm guns please.

German external intelligence efforts were so poor I've seen it seriously suggested that Admiral Canaris of the Abwehr was actually working against the Nazi regime. So they might or might not find out the detaiuls of what the British are doings but yes it could well be that the Germans push for more tanks now rather than better ones later.

 

[sharlin]

Not sure about the 1930's, but I do know the Germans did observe several tests of the EAF during the 2 years it was in operation, so they could easily have kept monitoring the development of the CAB's during the early 1930's (before Hitler came to power) and have designed their own Panzer Armies around the tactics and doctrine of the CAB's.

The French and American's also monitored the trial's (IIRC) so they could also, having realised the potential of the formation, be slowly developing their own. (By 1939, the French may have 1 CAB, due to a slower acceptance of the concept)

Blitzkrieg was a more developed version of what Fuller was proposing in the OTL 1920's combined arms approach, it grew to take in ALL land and air forces working together. The British have yet to incorperate the RAF into this although they are working on it with RAF liasons, the CAB is also a lot smaller than equivalent German formations.

 

[usertron2020]

This looks like a British Army version of Astrodragon's "Whale has Wings" TL.

How do the British deal with German air superiority? It looks like whatever else happens, the Germans are going to smash British armor just like the Allies did to the Germans when they wrested control of the skies later in the war.

 

[Simon]

This looks like a British Army version of Astrodragon's "Whale has Wings" TL.

No, that would be Ian's Vickers Leads the Way timeline.

 

[sharlin]

This looks like a British Army version of Astrodragon's "Whale has Wings" TL.

How do the British deal with German air superiority? It looks like whatever else happens, the Germans are goinmg to smash British armor just like the Allies did to the Germans when they wrested control of the skies later in the war.

Its a problem but its something that must be overcome. Its still pritty much the OTL war, the Germans have air superiority if not air supremacy over most of the battlefield.

 

[Reader347]

How do the British deal with German air superiority?

>
>
>
What German air superiority? The French could use more than half of their air force, or base them closer to the front, both of which the Germans did.

 

[sharlin]

The Germans had air dominance over France, their machines were generally better than what the French had and they had better pilots for the most part. And because of their better co-ordination between ground and air forces they had bombers on tap when and where needed whilst the Allies didn't have such a luxury.

 

[Reader347]

The Germans had air dominance over France, their machines were generally better than what the French had and they had better pilots for the most part. And because of their better co-ordination between ground and air forces they had bombers on tap when and where needed whilst the Allies didn't have such a luxury.

>
>
>
The French and Germans each lost about the same number of aircraft, if the wiki numbers are right, so the French didn't do too bad. The Germans did have much better anti-aircraft gun protection and that helped a lot. One gets the impression the Germans were more flexible and aggressive and willing to absorb losses and the allies weren't.

 

[Simon]

If the factories can churn out the equipment it would tied to recruitment and training, the big problem is coming to get it working together, mainly at a staffing level, getting the RAC, Infantry and Artillery to work and train together. When I was in the army I was a clerk at HQ 12 Mech Brigade in Aldershot and the map exercises and field exercises were interesting to watch. Especially as most of the younger officers had not worked with other branches of the Brigade before in such a manner.

Interesting. If you don't mind my asking what general period were you in?

How do the British deal with German air superiority? It looks like whatever else happens, the Germans are going to smash British armour just like the Allies did to the Germans when they wrested control of the skies later in the war.

Well if they're smart enough to start looking at combined arms they should hopefully think about operating under hostile air forces. The most obvious solution is to simply mount some .50 calibre heavy machine guns on the back of a lorry or carrier that can accompany the groups, IIRC they actually did that with our timeline's experimental force. I thought I had some pictures of the vehicles but buggered if I can find them or the details now unfortunately. They also manufactured a couple of experimental anti-aircraft variants of the Light Tank Mk V in 1940, one of which mounted a pair of 15mm cannons and the other mounting quad-.50 machine guns in powered turrets in place of the turrets. Hopefully something like that would be brought forwards a bit thanks to the use and trials/exercises of the new Combined Arms Brigades.

 

[sharlin]

I joined up in 97 at 17 and a half Left in 2002, edid, sorry it was 2003, had to wait a full year after handing in papers, that year also included a trip to Iraq.

 

[pedmore1202]

Well, the original EAF did have an air component. IIRC, it was No.16 Squadron (Army Co-operation), No.3 Squadron (Fighter) and No.11 Squadron (Bomber).

 

[Garrison]

I had an An idea for the structure of a timeline rather than the technical side. Perhaps in 1940 the French High Command still not entirely convinced of the merit of its mechanized forces decides to put them somewhere quiet and out of the way; like the Ardennes where they are sure the enemy can't attack...

 

[Simon]

I joined up in 97 at 17 and a half. Left in 2002, edit, sorry it was 2003, had to wait a full year after handing in papers, that year also included a trip to Iraq.

Ah yes, the package holiday deal that you really can't refuse.

 

[bsmart]

The big problem I see with this Time line is that it doesn't address the main reason British tanks were stuck with small turrets (and hence small guns) prior to WWII. They were not allowed to exceed the very tight British rail loading gage which limited vehicle width. This limited turret ring size which limited the size of gun they could carry. So while the Valantine for example was later equiped wit a 6pdr or 75 mm the size of the turret cut the turret crew size to 2 men reducing the efficency. later designs such as the Cromwell and Churchill took advantage of the relaxed rail loading rules during the war. An Later designs such as the Black Prince and Centurian were possible due to the further relaxing of the rules

Also the British armor force did not believe in explosive AT rounds. Even as late as 1944 they specifed that AP rounds supplied by the Amricans NOT be loaded with explosive filler while comparable rounds for American units.

 

[Sior]

The big problem I see with this Time line is that it doesn't address the main reason British tanks were stuck with small turrets (and hence small guns) prior to WWII. They were not allowed to exceed the very tight British rail loading gage which limited vehicle width. This limited turret ring size which limited the size of gun they could carry. So while the Valantine for example was later equiped wit a 6pdr or 75 mm the size of the turret cut the turret crew size to 2 men reducing the efficency. later designs such as the Cromwell and Churchill took advantage of the relaxed rail loading rules during the war. An Later designs such as the Black Prince and Centurian were possible due to the further relaxing of the rules

Also the British armor force did not believe in explosive AT rounds. Even as late as 1944 they specifed that AP rounds supplied by the Amricans NOT be loaded with explosive filler while comparable rounds for American units.

The problem was anything that went bang and took more than one man to carry was administered by the Royal Artillery and they saw it their job to drop HE on the enemy, not the tankies!

 

[Reader347]

The problem was anything that went bang and took more than one man to carry was administered by the Royal Artillery and they saw it their job to drop HE on the enemy, not the tankies!

>
>
>
So mortars were manned by Royal Artillery?