WI - The British army re-armed rationally

sharlin

Banned
Thank you good sir. Nice to see my M3 Stonewall design made it into the TL. Ugly as sin but it did the job. :p

Note: I see in your description of the Stonewall the name "Custer" slips in. Was that intentional?

It was a mistake on my behalf :)
 

sharlin

Banned
Somewhere in Sicily 1943

Shell fragments hissed evilly through the air as the dust and mud of an artillery round landing nearby drifted down. It seemed to be the last shell and the Italian and German troops started to pick themselves out of their hastily dug shell scrapes and man their fighting positions whilst those injured in the bombardment were quickly sheparded back to the first aid points that had been set up. The Axis troops occupied a strong defensive position, the hills of Sicily were broken up by lots of small farm plots with stone walls or hedges to shelter behind and the ground was easily broken up to make trenches and firing points for the machine guns.

The positions commander thanked God that the combined force had not been down by the coast, the reports of what naval gunfire had done to the troops near the landing beaches were terrifying enough to hear about, and he didn’t want to face that level of destructive firepower.
Nearby the engine of a German ‘Ferdinand’ roared to life, its crew making sure its camouflage of greenery and dirt was in place once it drove into the firing position that had been scraped for it.

“Casualties are light Major, a few men injured, one shell hit a slip trench and four were killed.”

“Very good Captain, any news for air support?”

The somewhat dishevelled Officer shook his head, they both knew the Allies ruled the skies over the island.

“Sir! Report from outpost three. “Enemy turtles sighted, infantry in support and they could see other vehicles.”

“What about the rest of the Regiment and our German ‘friends’? Don’t they know what we’re facing here?”

“I’ll signal them again, I doubt the Fritzes have much to give.”

“Yes I know…that redeployment to Greece, bloody waste of fuel that was.”

A dozen miles away a British infantry patrol was taking some Italians they’d found in a hedgerow prisoners, they had been busily smashing a radio when found and had surrendered immediately, a wise thing to do when faced with half a dozen Australians, two of them with Bren’s. A mixed formation of AT-1 and 2’s ‘charged’ forwards at the brisk pace of 12 mph, the heavily armoured machines the spear tip of the ANZAC force’s axis of advance, behind them was a mix of Sherman Jumbo’s and Excelsior’s whilst the troops were moved in a mix of Bren Gun Carriers as well as the popular Elk tracked transport, based on the hull of the M3 Grant. The position they had to attack was a large farmhouse which was clearly held by Axis troops, hence the AT’s leading the way, their heavy armour in theory allowed them to get close enough for their guns to do the necessary to any dug in troops.

“Fire!”
“Fuoco!”
“Feuer!”

The Ferdinand’s long 88mm gun roared, the heavy tank destroyer rocking back slightly, a blast of flame shooting three meters from the barrel whilst the two towed 88’s that had been emplaced also opened fire at the approaching Allied machines. The lighter AT guns had to wait their turn.

The 8.8cm PaK 43 was one of the most fearsome anti-tank guns of the whole war, its massive shell velocity gave it a superior range to anything the Allies had but even at roughly 6000 yards the shell that hit the leading AT-1 just gouged a chunk out of the Assault Tank’s thick armour, leaving a red hot scar as the shell bounced up several hundred meters, rattling the crew but causing no harm.

The Australians 25lber and 5.5 inch guns were waiting for fire orders and these were quickly given and a barrage of HE and smoke landed on the farmland and the surrounding walls whilst the AT-‘s driver’s ‘floored it’ pushing their machines to their unimpressive top speed whilst gunners and loaders got to work adding their 6lb and 84mm howitzer’s to the fire now engulfing their target.

The Australian infantry following up behind rapidly dismounted and began to advance, their troop carriers withdrawing to the rear as per doctrine whilst the tanks spread out in a vague arc following the 9 AT’s advance. They had practiced and trained this manoeuvre again and again and now under live fire rather than being shot at with blanks the training was paying off handsomely.

Still there were casualties, two AT’s were quickly knocked out, fortunately their thick hides and well protected ammunition stopped one from brewing up and the crew got out, the other was disabled with a smashed return roller that had brought the machine to a halt.

Charging through the smoke under heavy fire whilst returning it with gusto the Australian troops started clearing the Axis fire positions whilst the guns and tanks of both sides traded blows, but numbers and the advantage of time, place and firepower told and within three hours the Axis position was overrun with soldiers surrendering and casualties being taken care of.


The Ferdinand its hull scored and gouged by the 63 shots that had hit it was still smoking, finally disabled by repeated hits at close range into its side and tracks, its crew stunned into uselessness by the repeated impacts.

Somewhere in Russia – 1943

Private William Hauser threw himself into the mud as a nearby Panzer IV exploded with an air shaking BOOM, parts of the tank thrumming through the air before burying themselves in the dirt and snow. Pulling his head up the Infantryman could see six of the Soviet ‘Juggernauts’ as they were called by the men coming through the woods whilst his company’s supporting Tiger’s turned to face them.
A battle between a KV-3 and the Tiger tank usually came down to who got an accurate shot in first, both were able to penetrate each other but their armour was also highly resistant to the other tanks gun. Another bloody battle was in the offering as always happened on the rare occasions when the two heavy tanks met.



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AT-1 with 94mm Howitzer.

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KV-3 Heavy tank of the 2nd Heavy Guards Brigade. These large machines were produced before the Tiger tank and although stricken with the same flaws as the Tiger (poor mobility, mechanical unreliability, weight) they were fearsome if rare machines for the Heer to face. The main mass of the fighting was still done by massed T-34 tanks whilst the newer, lighter IS series was being developed for introduction in the winter of 1943.
 

sharlin

Banned
In May 1940, after the experiences of the finnish war, and the peace treaty, the STAVKA deemed it necessary to produce a new heavy tank. Although the new KV-1 was starting to enter service, there were concerns that the heavier tank ‘only’ had the same calibre gun as the much smaller and older T-28, which had performed rather poorly in the war with Finland. The development team of the KV-1 was therefore called upon to begin studies on a new, more powerful machine. This lead to two diverging ideas initially labelled, for simple expediency, the KV-2 and KV-3.

The KV-2 would feature a 152mm short barrelled howitzer that could demolish concrete strongpoints or fortifications, like trenches in direct support of the Infantry. The KV-3 design was bolder, with the goal of creating a more capable all round machine. The KV-2 design was eventually deemed unsuitable in December 1940 when the first test vehicle-trials and it was found the tank was grossly unstable, thanks to the height and weight of its turret, and suffered from mechanical reliability issues due to the added strain placed upon its engine and drive train.

Needing something to be ready to display for their work, the design teams focused entirely on the KV-3 design. The hull of the new machine was to be based on the KV-1 but was longer, with extra road-wheels added, l and the body was made slightly wider, to accommodate a larger turret ring for the planned turret, as a bigger gun house would mean more room for the weapon itself.

The choice of armament caused more than a few disagreements and arguments, mainly because of the designers of the KV-2 pushing for a tank mounted version of the new M1938 122mm howitzer, but that weapons poor performance against armour ruled it out after tests. The weapon eventually chosen was the brand new M1940 107mm gun, a weapon that had formidable range and fearsome capabilities against armoured targets as proven during testing at Leningrad.

In terms of sheer size, the gun was bigger than any other equivalent in the world. The largest British, German, French or American tank guns were short 75 or 76mm howitzers, low velocity guns that lacked the raw punch of the much higher velocity 107mm gun. Collaborating with Alexander Morozov, who was working on his T-34 medium tank, helped speed the design of a turret capable of mounting the big 107mm gun.
The turret itself was quite revolutionary, thanks to Morozov’s influence and ideas, and the turret changed from the typical KV-1 boxy affair to a much more advanced design that featured a curved front and angled sides to increase the equivalent thickness of the armour without adding weight. This in turn cut down on the internal space in the turret but was countered by making the turret larger and slightly longer, capable of holding three of the KV-3’s five man crew. The Gunner, Loader and Commander would be housed in the turret whilst the Driver and Radio Operator in the forward part of the hull. Mirroring an idea from German machines, the KV-3’s Commander was given a raised cupola for improved vision without having to risk sticking his head out of the tank and all were to be fitted with radios as standard.

With the gun and turret designed, the already impressive armour of the base KV-1 hull was improved upon; the frontal hull was nearly doubled to a maximum of 120mm thickness whilst the flanks were 90mm thick. The turret itself was shielded by 120mm of armour frontally although thanks to the subtle curves and angling was considerably thicker. Yet this massive firepower and protection came at a cost, the KV-3 design grew rapidly in size with the tank ballooning to a massive 64 tonnes and it quickly became clear that the standard V-2 diesel engine simply was not adequate to push such a beast of a machine along at speed. Whilst the hull and turret were proceeding along nicely, the need for a new engine slowed development until a 750hp engine known as the V-2SN was developed, partially with the help of the navy as it was later to be used on Soviet river patrol boats. Extensive trials with the engine worked out most of its bugs and all were relieved when it was mated perfectly with the KV-3 hull.

The first KV-3 started trials in March 1941 and save for the prototype suffering a steering fault, resulting in it crashing into a copse of trees, there were no issues that could not be easily fixed. When demonstrated before members of the STAVKA including Stalin himself at the end of March, the new tank was immediately ordered into production at the Leningrad Kirov Plant, as well as Stalingrad alongside the smaller lighter and cheaper T-34.

By the end of May 1941, the planned 110 vehicles per month were being produced at Leningrad and when combined with the output from the Stalingrad factory there were 342 KV-3 tanks in service on the 22nd of June 1941 when the Axis forces began Operation Barbarossa. Because the KV-3 was brand new, none of them were near the border areas and suffered no losses during the initial German onslaught. Initially spread out amongst tank units to provide ‘backbone’ to the armoured divisions, this order was quickly rescinded and the KV-3’s started to be massed together in formations know as Heavy Tank Brigades along with their little ‘brothers’, the KV-1s.

Although lacking in tactical training, the crews knew their machines and the first Heavy Brigade went into action as part of the Yelnya Offensive.
Whilst the Germans had encountered KV-1 tanks in small numbers they had never seen the KV-3 before and the force of 36 KV-3’s supported by 48 KV-1’s caused mayhem. Horrified German Panzer crews watched their 50mm shells bounce off the Soviet tanks whilst their armour was not proof against the heavy 107mm shells of the KV-3’s. Even the 88mm Flak guns could not reliably defeat the armour of the Soviet machines at ranges long enough to be safe for the gun’s crew. Whilst the battle was a victory for the Soviet Union, the Germans were now deeply concerned. The KV-1 and T-34 had been unpleasant enough surprises as it was, the Soviet machines being far better protected and armed than an equivalent German machine but now they had a larger machine, bigger than any in the world that demanded a counter.

The initial reaction was to increase the production of the long KwK 40 L/43 gun on the Panzer IV but even this capable weapon was only effective at short ranges, when given a shot at the flank or rear of a KV-3 and was in no way proof against the 107mm gun. The major problems for the KV-3 was their limited tactical and strategic mobility, more KV-3s were lost due to them being bogged down or disabled through engine trouble than by German action and the big machines were a fine target for a competent Stuka pilot. Limited numbers also meant the tank could not be everywhere.

The German reply came in the form of the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger Ausf.E or as it was quickly shortened to the Tiger. A machine that, although lighter than the KV-3, was just as formidable. Its lethally accurate and high velocity 88mm gun could cut through the KV-3’s armour at a useful range and its thick armoured hide was proof against long range shots from the 107mm, meaning that both machines had to fight at roughly the same battle ranges against one another. Here the Tiger still had the advantage, its superior gunnery systems and optics as well as its better trained crews and the faster firing gun meant that it often got the first critical shot, before a KV-3 could. Yet chances for the two machines to meet remained few and far between: With Leningrad under siege the main production centre for the KV-3 was out of action and when Stalingrad was attacked the factory there was destroyed. Slowly but surely the KV-3 became a dying breed.

In early 1943 the Soviets began development of the successor to the KV-3 in the form of the IS-1, a smaller and lighter machine but one that was armed with an impressive 122mm gun. The smaller machine was more forgiving on the roads and bridges, whereas the KV-3 was limited in which bridges it could use due to its great weight. It was a joke in the tank arm of the Soviet army that the KV-3 was the world’s best destroyer of bridges; all you needed do was park it in the middle and wait.

The only time the Tiger and KV-3 truly clashed was on the battlefields of Kursk where the Heavy Brigades were deployed to try and counter the feared German Tiger and Panther tanks. When the Battle of Kursk, ended the honours between the KV-3 and Tiger were roughly even, it came down to who got their shot off first. The KV’s thicker armour protected it well against the superior German weapons, whilst the German could fight from longer ranges and always had the advantage of better trained crew.

With the end of the War the final active KV-3’s took part in parades in both Berlin and Moscow and were retired to depots or used as display pieces at monuments. A few found their way to the West, one is as the Aberdeen Proving Grounds whilst another in running condition sits opposite the Tiger tank at the Bovington Tank Museum. A few more, usually recovered from rivers or swamps in Eastern Europe are now in the hands of collectors.

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sharlin

Banned
Panzer VII Lowe (Lion)

The successor to the Tiger tank and conceived as the ultimate tank by the Nazi's the Lowe was the 'property' of the Waffen SS after wrangling and cornering production of the machine for their own use. Under development since 1942 after fears that the current Tiger might simply not 'be enough' to counter any Allied or Soviet machines in the future the design ballooned and grew from a 56 tonne design that was roughly similar to the standard Tiger but incorporating sloped armour into a 76 tonne behemoth that would remain a world beater until the 1950's.

The Lowe was designed by the Krupp's firm and was fitted with a fearsome 105mm KwK 46 L/70 anti-tank cannon that could out range anything in the Allied inventory whilst the machine was protected by 100mm of well sloped armour on the front and its turret was shielded by a massive 120mm of sloped armour making it even harder to penetrate. With broad tracks the ground pressure of the tank was not totally inhibitive and it had good cross country performance if atrocious fuel consumption and was a maintenance nightmare for the mechanics, with an overworked Maybach engine and suspension that shared the Panther's 'curse' of having overlapping bogeys that had a nasty tendency to be clogged with mud or freeze together.

Their great size also made them very hard to hide from attack aircraft which became the biggest killer of Lowe's. Still when the tanks were first encountered they were without equal and could shrug off the fire of Churchill’s, IS's and Scott's at long range whilst their own weapons had no problems reaching out to long range and destroying their chosen target.


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A Lowe heavy tank belonging to 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf taking part in the fighting inside the ruins of Madenburg. In the background is a knocked out Soviet IS-3, the 'Ultimate' tank of the Soviet army (which turned out to be an unreliable maintenance nightmare).

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A Lowe heavy tank being introduced to its crew who are taking a break during training, this machine has yet to receive any camouflage or unit markings.



Been a while since i've done any updates on this but my Muse went HEY! HEY! LISTEN! to me.
 

sharlin

Banned
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M27 Winfield Scott (Called Scotty or Winny by the troops)

Although the M4 Sherman was introduced in 1941 the tank soon proved to be at best an adequate machine, not exceptional and not the great war winner that it was touted to be in the press. Thanks to some 'questionable' doctrinal choices by the US Army before the war the main role of tanks was felt to be support infantry and deal with AT guns/artillery positions, for which its 76mm gun would be adequate (the OTL 75mm gun was never used). The Tank Destroyers were the machines that would engage and destroy hostile tanks as their name indicated but in combat this was found to rarely be the case with US tanks having to fight axis machines far more often than the Tank Destroyers did, whilst the TD's became little more than a fire support arm.

This caused a considerable amount of friction with Generals Patton and Bradley both arguing in private and public that this doctrinal idea HAD to change. The row got lots of public support from both sides of the Atlantic as well as the troops who were sending back reports and giving interviews saying their machines simply were not up to the task.

Buckling under public, Congressional and Presidential pressure the Army agreed to design a new machine that would be in their words 'a world beater'. Step forwards the T-20 design.

Designed in three weeks the T-20 was an obvious evolution of the Sherman, retaining its 5 man crew but with a not so towering profile, retaining the HVSS suspention of its predecessor with 76mm of well sloped armour frontally as well as an enlarged engine for higher performance on and off road. The HVSS suspention was replaced with torsion bars whilst the gun was the M1 76mm gun and eventually the M3 90mm gun on the stretched M27-A3 (the A2 mounted a short 105mm howitzer for infantry support and strong point demolition) which arrived in 1944. The standard 76mm armed Scott was roughly comparable to the British Comet and Soviet T-34-85 and many a TV show and military forum has had discussions on which was the better of the three Allied tanks.
The truth though was that the M26 with its 76mm gun still could not engage the Panther tank safely from range head to head, and only with the introduction of the A3 did the Western Allies have a tank that could reliably take on the Panther and Tiger at long range outside of the much slower Churchill tank and its fearsome 17lb cannon.


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A picture of a prototype M26 with its HVSS suspention.


And thank ye Cortz :)
 
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When I finish my first draft of the Mers el Kebir Resolution I might touch on a similar topic dealing with more rational armament across the board rather than concentrating on one armed service. Because there's only so much money to go around in the 30s the changes will be broader but more modest than this thread or The Whale has Wings.
 
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Currently reading Tim Clayton's Sea Wolves about the British submarine service in World War II and from what little I've read so far it could have done with some changes pre-war. Now they're probably stuck with roughly the same kind of submarines as our timeline due to financial constraints and late introduction of welding in shipbuilding but just simple things like crews never being exposed to what depth charges sound or feel like or improving the naval intelligence set-up for both the Home and the Mediterranean Fleets so you can make better use of what you have would be low-cost ways of improving things. Might be worth looking at if people are thinking of expanding their work.
 
Any chance of the British building a good Tank recovery vehicle?
Are the British tanks welded or are they using rivets.
With more money being spent on tanks does this mean less money is spent on royal navy or do cuts happen else where.?
 
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sharlin

Banned
Pre-war the mechanisation of the Army before the war was on a smaller scale, some regiments were disbanded pre-war and there was cutbacks and better management of projects so there wasn't lots of designs but no products.
 
Just found this and loving the tank porn. I've long considered doing an experimental armoured force survives and influences WW2 time line (if I ever get any free time). I've seen a few started but they all seam to fizzle out :confused:.

I was surprised ITTL the British go for heavy and slow tanks. I always thought that if the EAF survived then they would go first light,cheap and multi-role tanks in the early to mid 30's and then as more money became available as the threat of war increases the Brits progress to the heavy cruiser tank route.
 

sharlin

Banned
Just found this and loving the tank porn. I've long considered doing an experimental armoured force survives and influences WW2 time line (if I ever get any free time). I've seen a few started but they all seam to fizzle out :confused:.

I was surprised ITTL the British go for heavy and slow tanks. I always thought that if the EAF survived then they would go first light,cheap and multi-role tanks in the early to mid 30's and then as more money became available as the threat of war increases the Brits progress to the heavy cruiser tank route.

I kept the tanks fairly slow as it would not require too great a leap in engine development to jump in ahead of when they could be built. Basically its this.

"You know what chaps, whats the point of having a tank if it can't protect itself from hostile fire, this whole light fast cruiser idea's silly. But going infantry speed is also..well dumb, so lets have a happy medium."

They traded the 'versatility' of having multiple tanks for very narrow roles and stepped happily into what the Germans were planning with their Panzer III/IV whilst keeping with the more traditional lower speed of British tanks, something flexable but leaning towards the slower and well protected end of the scale.

The AT series are the dedicated role machines the AT-1 is a bunker/strong point buster, the AT-2 is a (barely) mobile anti-tank bunker.
 
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